On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
On May 20 2019 20:46 Koatique wrote: Sad to see Special lose like that in the final. Serral made him look clueless. It looked like Special was not confident he could win from the start. It was all relatively safe play defending against a Zerg who is ahead in bases the whole game. Eventually you just run out of steam and get overrun. Special play was not decisive enough. I liked the first game, but he should have played even more defensive. Build 50 turrets and split the map like TY would do. He had no turrets and got overrun by mass corruptors. Just stay behind dozens of turrets and some siege tanks and mass BC until you have 180 supply of them. The moveouts against neural parasite feels weak. Range lib, turrets, mines and mass BC and split map. Let the Zerg figure that one out. Inno/Maru/TY are decisive and take a lot of risk. You need to take risk against Serral. In an even game he will win wear you down.
Special needs a coach who can help him with the gameplan for a finals like that. Just playing standard games is not going to work. He had a couple hours to prepare for the finals. He came out with 1 really interesting build but that was when he was already down 2-0.
I hope he learns from this. I want Special to win. He really deserves a big win.
With what money though? Zerg trades too efficiently in super late game unless you turtle & nuke which means you’re left searching for that really good engagement like special was.
It seems like im not the only one that dreams of serral competing in gsl. Unfortunately that probably isint going to happen. If i remember correctly, serrals reasons for not going there were: 1. He thinks gsl is too long, he does not want to live in korea for like 3 mouths. 2. He thinks its silly that he could do it in the first place since koreans cant come to wcs ciruit in the same way.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Serral is Ajax in my comparison because despite the Dutch league being weaker, and most agreeing it absolutely is he’s still able to then compete at higher levels from there. Slavia Prague are not.
I don’t think people are arguing it’s equivalent to winning a Code S, it’s consistently dominating it to this degree, plus having made the step up in level when required that people tend to rate Serral in this regard.
Even amongst the players who could hypothetically be that consistent in winning or placing deep all the time, it’s Neeb prior and now Serral who are the ones who generally actually do it.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
11 weeks until GSLvWorld. HYYYPPPUUUU
I knew it was in that rough date slot but somehow framing it as just 11 weeks away sounds so much closer, super hyped.
It’ll be sick actually following things as they happen, on my hiatus from all things SC2 related I missed Byun’s titles, Gumiho getting a GSL and the rise of Serral, although I’ve eventually got caught up with VoDs.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in the last 3 tournament where he played only Koreans=top 16 max
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
Anyone aside from Serral is max Ro16 level, which includes Neeb who has made the Ro4 and not a million years ago either.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
Anyone aside from Serral is max Ro16 level, which includes Neeb who has made the Ro4 and not a million years ago either.
So Maru is a RO32 level player, because he lost 1 time in RO32 right? Same stupid logic... :/
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
11 weeks until GSLvWorld. HYYYPPPUUUU
I knew it was in that rough date slot but somehow framing it as just 11 weeks away sounds so much closer, super hyped.
It’ll be sick actually following things as they happen, on my hiatus from all things SC2 related I missed Byun’s titles, Gumiho getting a GSL and the rise of Serral, although I’ve eventually got caught up with VoDs.
You can also count the days if you want: 74 days xD
Wish I’d have found this earlier, makes it so much easier to look at foreigner results in the GSL.
Last year we had Zanster and SortOf qualifying, Scarlett made the Ro8 which I didn’t know, I thought her best run was Ro16 tbh.
WCS now is a higher level than the era you’re talking about, IMO anyway, both right at the top and but definitely in depth if field.
5 years ago when the gap between Korea and the foreign scene was much bigger, the Koreans who made the swap to the EU didn’t have it all their own way, and that gap has shrunk hugely in the last half a decade.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb(ro4) and Reynor(ro16) made their runs at their first try if I remember correctly; Special is indeed a top foreigner but he never reached the finals of WCS before yesterday, he mostly performs at BlizzCon. ShowTimE is better than your average ro32 korean; Zanster, SortOf and(especially) NoRegreT definitely are not top foreigners, but they qualified for Code S. I guess you must think Solar is bad, he reaches ro8 very rarely.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Making the ro4 once doesn't make you a ro4 level player. Or would you say Ryung was a ro4 level player in 2017?
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Making the ro4 once doesn't make you a ro4 level player. Or would you say Ryung was a ro4 level player in 2017?
You cannot really say the opposite since that was Neeb's first ro4 attempt. As for Ryung, he made ro4 in S1 2017 right after reaching ro8 in S2 2016 so I would say he pretty much was at the time. What about souL eliminating Stats? Upset can happen, they are not the norm. However, if Code S was (still)as hard to get into as you make it to be, so many upset would have happened in such a short timespan.
EPT
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