WCS Global Champion Serral reclaimed his seat on top of the WCS Circuit in Kiev, besting a field of over seventy competitors to win his fifth Circuit championship at WCS Spring. Serral had briefly ceded the European crown to Reynor in April's WCS Winter Europe finals, but he avenged that defeat with a 3-0 semifinal sweep against the Italian Zerg.
Perennial semifinalist SpeCial advanced from the opposite side of the bracket, passing an important career milestone by besting Western powerhouses ShoWTimE and Neeb to reach his first Circuit finals. However, SpeCial ended up becoming Serral's fifth WCS Circuit finals victim, giving up a 0-4 sweep to the Finnish Phenom.
SpeCial looked to be dangerous opponent for Serral in the first two games, fighting Serral to a near standstill with his slow and methodical mech-Terran play. However, Serral was able to swing both games with decisive engagements, wiping out mass Battlecruisers with Infestor-Corruptor in game one and taking down a Tank-Liberator force as it advanced onto Creep in game two. The last two games of the series featured more 'typical' Serral dominance as SpeCial switched to infantry based armies. Serral slowly snowballed small early leads into unlosable positions, leaving SpeCial looking just as helpless as many top Terrans before him.
The finals victory gave Serral his fifth WCS Circuit championship, $20,000 in prize money, and a direct seed into the 2019 WCS Global Finals. Serral also attained his first sweep in a major tournament finals, something he had not achieved in the course of winning seven major championships. Serral will look to continue his reign at July's WCS Summer, with WCS returning to Ukraine for another Circuit event.
Just well played. Amazing games by him. He made some stupid mistakes in the game he lost against TIME, otherwise pretty sure that would have been 3-0 as well. Another really dominant tournament and the revenge against Reynor was especially sweet!
I wish there was a way to convince Serral it’s a good idea to play a GSL Season. Really when you think about it, he’s done just about everything else. 👀
On May 20 2019 06:07 StarcraftSquall wrote: I wish there was a way to convince Serral it’s a good idea to play a GSL Season. Really when you think about it, he’s done just about everything else. 👀
Yes, it would really be amazing. He has to go to Korea for GSL vs the World anyway.
On May 20 2019 06:07 StarcraftSquall wrote: I wish there was a way to convince Serral it’s a good idea to play a GSL Season. Really when you think about it, he’s done just about everything else. 👀
Only thing missing now would be a sweep like TaeJa, but yes, it would be nice for him to go to Korea. He won't always win WCS of course, you can't always win at Starcraft, but it's clear that he's way better than everyone there.
Congrats to Serral for the win and Special for getting to final, and to Goblin, Skillous and Hellraiser for having great runs! I really liked this format. Non-stop SC2 action! Many exiting moments, like Bly's proxy hatch spine rush vs Neeb. Couldn't deal with my attention craving kids for a while there.
On May 20 2019 06:24 MajiN1 wrote: I'm sure that trap hero & impact have seen the whole run of special specially cause he did well against protoss
Congratz to Juanito to reach his first finale (not the last I hope) and to serral for doing serral stuff.
This wcs season is interesting regarding the run for top 8. Scarlett, Showtime, Lambo and Drogo are close to the top 8
This top 8 is quite nice but I would like to see Scarlett and uThermal at BlizzCon for the first time(as well as Reynor and TIME who would be in already).
I'd really like to see Serral comepeting in the most prestigious SC2 tournament, but I understand his position and respect him even more. There are more important things in life and he has already proved to be a starcraft legend
I like them adding the knockout bracket. It seemed like a real shame that you would put up the 💵 to travel to a Circuit event and your entire tournament could be done in four games. This is a lot better for both players and fans. Hopefully it sticks. I also would like to see the semifinals be changed to Bo7 like GSL considering the amount of WCS Points difference there is between 2nd and 3rd/4th.
On May 20 2019 07:11 StarcraftSquall wrote: I like them adding the knockout bracket. It seemed like a real shame that you would put up the 💵 to travel to a Circuit event and your entire tournament could be done in four games. This is a lot better for both players and fans. Hopefully it sticks. I also would like to see the semifinals be changed to Bo7 like GSL considering the amount of WCS Points difference there is between 2nd and 3rd/4th.
It seemed both fair and enjoyable. Apart of the music volume being way too high during the interviews, Starladder has delivered!
On May 20 2019 07:11 StarcraftSquall wrote: I like them adding the knockout bracket. It seemed like a real shame that you would put up the 💵 to travel to a Circuit event and your entire tournament could be done in four games. This is a lot better for both players and fans. Hopefully it sticks. I also would like to see the semifinals be changed to Bo7 like GSL considering the amount of WCS Points difference there is between 2nd and 3rd/4th.
It seemed both fair and enjoyable. Apart of the music volume being way too high during the interviews, Starladder has delivered!
Well that and putting TWO events in Ukraine, which is not the easiest place to get to.
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
They are on a higher level, doesn’t necessarily mean they dominate WCS so hard if they’re thrown in. They certainly have the ability, doing it is another thing entirely.
I mean weekender Maru vs GSL Maru being a case in point, watching his GSL games he should just stomp basically everyone else, but he can’t quite do it
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
Yeah, Serral is great to watch when he runs into players that can keep up with him mechanically and strategically. When he faces actual equals, the game swings back and forth, and the outcome is in doubt. That's just good competition and good Starcraft. It's not particularly fun or entertaining when Serral steamrolls foreigners, any more than it is watching the Warriors shit all over the western conference.
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
Hmm, so true! I guess Bly or souL would never be able to defeat soO in a bo3, I wonder why he didn't transfer to WCS in order to steal from Polt the records Serral eventually came to usurp.
Fortunately Inno and soO embody the true KeSpa spirit, not like those pale imitations of koreans who repeatedly failed to stop Serral last year(uh wait, Inno was one of them? Don't tell me...).
I mean, they are of course player of higher caliber but you cannot disregard WCS this way. Serral steamrolled Reynor this time but he lost 0-2, 3-4 his previous encounters and even when Serral was invincible he was forced to go to the seventh game; Special advanced to Code S ro16 last week by destroying sOs. Your statements seem out of place.
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
Hmm, so true! I guess Bly or souL would never be able to defeat soO in a bo3, I wonder why he didn't transfer to WCS in order to steal from Polt the records Serral eventually came to usurp.
Fortunately Inno and soO embody the true KeSpa spirit, not like those pale imitations of koreans who repeatedly failed to stop Serral last year(uh wait, Inno was one of them? Don't tell me...).
I mean, they are of course player of higher caliber but you cannot disregard WCS this way. Serral steamrolled Reynor this time but he lost 0-2, 3-4 his previous encounters and even when Serral was invincible he was forced to go to the seventh game; Special advanced to Code S ro16 last week by destroying sOs. Your statements seem out of place.
Not sure which side of this bait fest I disagree with more.. Serral is a top tier global player period. But, you basically can disregard wcs outside of serral, neeb/special(who have made their giant stride via hard grinding korea) and reynor..throw in lambo and thats about as far as u go for code S level players in a field of what 64 was it? Maybe showtime. Everyone on that list outside of the first 3 would be lower tier code S players...2 of which are playing a ton on Korea and 1 of which is the outlier himself. Gap is not closing..region lock is literally to blame. Maybe more of the Eu pros will follow in footsteps of juanito but you couldnt blame them for not doing it.
Grats Serral. I hope Polt can return and give serious competition but most players who came back from military aren't doing very well, besides FantaSy.
On May 20 2019 12:19 Anc13nt wrote: Grats Serral. I hope Polt can return and give serious competition but most players who came back from military aren't doing very well, besides FantaSy.
fantasy and parting* and about polt he will be top ten soon
On May 20 2019 12:19 Anc13nt wrote: Grats Serral. I hope Polt can return and give serious competition but most players who came back from military aren't doing very well, besides FantaSy.
It will take a while for polt but he is on the right track. Last time i saw his stream he reached 6k mmr but he returned to 5.8k. You can see his progress in his streams
some people forgot that Serral is world champion and he used to smash top koreans. he won anyone .. he rekt dark 3 times and their best protoss (stats) twice. he beat maru , inno and many more.. last times when he lost it was 2:3 (soO) mega close & best z v z , lost to reynor 3:4 and 3:4 to inno.. all was very close... serral is top 3 without a doubt . when ever serral lost 2:0 or 3:1?:D he is not like anyone
How can anyone continue to care about the Circuit? It's just so fucking predictable these days. You might as well just take Serral and Reynor and have them draw straws to determine the winner and have everyone else play for third.
On May 20 2019 13:31 showstealer1829 wrote: How can anyone continue to care about the Circuit? It's just so fucking predictable these days. You might as well just take Serral and Reynor and have them draw straws to determine the winner and have everyone else play for third.
Funny, could have sworn something similar was said about Maru after he won last Code S.
On May 20 2019 13:31 showstealer1829 wrote: How can anyone continue to care about the Circuit? It's just so fucking predictable these days. You might as well just take Serral and Reynor and have them draw straws to determine the winner and have everyone else play for third.
Funny, could have sworn something similar was said about Maru after he won last Code S.
That's a testament to how strong Maru is though because he does it in the most competitive tournament. Unless you want to argue WCS is more competitive than GSL.
i usually depend on the vod links on the liquipedia page in order to follow these tournaments. wish i didn't have to but are the series spliced on twitch.tv/starcraft?
On May 20 2019 13:31 showstealer1829 wrote: How can anyone continue to care about the Circuit? It's just so fucking predictable these days. You might as well just take Serral and Reynor and have them draw straws to determine the winner and have everyone else play for third.
One of these days we re gonna get Neeb vs Serral, one of these days
On May 20 2019 13:31 showstealer1829 wrote: How can anyone continue to care about the Circuit? It's just so fucking predictable these days. You might as well just take Serral and Reynor and have them draw straws to determine the winner and have everyone else play for third.
Funny, could have sworn something similar was said about Maru after he won last Code S.
Code S has more good players than WCS, compared to Serral there's none except Reynor with his ZvZ. OTOH there are many players who are as good as Maru. Unless Serral goes bad there's no one in the WCS who can beat him reliably.
On May 20 2019 07:39 arkpra wrote: Serral makes Sc2 boring
I dunno, pretty interesting when he runs into real players like soO and Innovation who took him down at IEM and WESG. Those guys are also on a way higher level than anyone else at WCS. They'd be winning WCS every time if they swapped positions with Serral.
They are on a higher level, doesn’t necessarily mean they dominate WCS so hard if they’re thrown in. They certainly have the ability, doing it is another thing entirely.
I mean weekender Maru vs GSL Maru being a case in point, watching his GSL games he should just stomp basically everyone else, but he can’t quite do it
Dark? Probably the best Korean vs foreigners not named Serral? And we're talking about a player who makes "just" RO4s
Another lower tier olimoleague trophy to Serrals collection? I am glad I stopped watching the circuit alltogether. Only intresting matchup would be Serral vs Neeb, and it never happens. The other players are just so much worse than these 2... its really boring to even browse through he results.
Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Guys let me clear something up: playing in GSL vs the World is NOT the same as playing in GSL Code S. GSL vs the World is a weekender with rapid pace. In GSL Code S you have days and weeks to prepare and study for your group. Serral would have time to dissect his opponent and vice versa. And we know there’s only a handful of Circuit players who can truly compete with him - in Code S we would have a much better idea of his overall skill set. (Plus maybe we’d finally get that Serral vs Maru Bo7 sOs so shamefully took away from us last year... 👀)
On May 20 2019 16:33 StarcraftSquall wrote: Guys let me clear something up: playing in GSL vs the World is NOT the same as playing in GSL Code S. GSL vs the World is a weekender with rapid pace. In GSL Code S you have days and weeks to prepare and study for your group. Serral would have time to dissect his opponent and vice versa. And we know there’s only a handful of Circuit players who can truly compete with him - in Code S we would have a much better idea of his overall skill set. (Plus maybe we’d finally get that Serral vs Maru Bo7 sOs so shamefully took away from us last year... 👀)
Most importantly in Code S is more better players who you face against. GSL vs The World has 8 Koreans.... (and 2 of them will be fan votings which didn't go very well the last time)
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
Ah, if it's for the sake of repeatedly correcting someone on the Internet, being an ass is completely justified.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
Ah, if it's for the sake of repeatedly correcting someone on the Internet, being an ass is completely justified.
You're new at the internetz? Correcting somebody on the internet is probably the 3rd biggest reason to post in the internet, right after posting memes and cat videos/gifs
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
Ah, if it's for the sake of repeatedly correcting someone on the Internet, being an ass is completely justified.
You're new at the internetz? Correcting somebody on the internet is probably the 3rd biggest reason to post in the internet, right after posting memes and cat videos/gifs
Porn. The internet is for porn. Memes and cat videos and all the rest are just side effects.
Congratz Serral! Awesome performance! Handled those cheesy Terran openings way better than Ragnarok did.
Game 1 & 2 were real nailbiters, after that Special seemed a bit sloppy and Serral just wiped the floor with him Hope Special can take away something from those gamesvs Serral and Neeb and deliver in Code S
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
Serral 4-0 Special is quite serious. Full congrats to Serral.
Some people (Pig, Incontrol and Zombiegrub to name a few) have said that the gap between Koreans and foreigners has decreased a lot. But I have to agree with Artosis when he said - 'Serral is the exception not the rule'. I hope Special can put forward a great GSL showing in the round 16 still and that Serral will test himself in a GSL season soon
On May 20 2019 12:42 ProtoisProtois wrote: some people forgot that Serral is world champion and he used to smash top koreans. he won anyone .. he rekt dark 3 times and their best protoss (stats) twice. he beat maru , inno and many more.. last times when he lost it was 2:3 (soO) mega close & best z v z , lost to reynor 3:4 and 3:4 to inno.. all was very close... serral is top 3 without a doubt . when ever serral lost 2:0 or 3:1?:D he is not like anyone
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
On May 20 2019 18:37 AxiomBlurr wrote: Serral 4-0 Special is quite serious. Full congrats to Serral.
Some people (Pig, Incontrol and Zombiegrub to name a few) have said that the gap between Koreans and foreigners has decreased a lot. But I have to agree with Artosis when he said - 'Serral is the exception not the rule'. I hope Special can put forward a great GSL showing in the round 16 still and that Serral will test himself in a GSL season soon
I think they’re both right though. Serral is still an outlier, but the gap has also closed too.
I think the area it’s closed most IMO is between the weaker GSL Ro32 players/those who intermittently qualify and the tier of foreigners directly beneath Neeb/Reynor/Scarlett/Special
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Ajax FC was a major team in the seventies, it has too much history to be fitting(and the team of this year is going to be dismembered in a few months), Monaco wasn't exactly unknown as well but at least it didn't win at european Level. National competitions may suffer a little if there aren't enough top teams to compete for the title, but european cups are simply amazing, I enjoy them.
Coming to sc2, I would love to see more international events.
On May 20 2019 06:07 StarcraftSquall wrote: I wish there was a way to convince Serral it’s a good idea to play a GSL Season. Really when you think about it, he’s done just about everything else. 👀
Yes, it would really be amazing. He has to go to Korea for GSL vs the World anyway.
Not only that, but he secured his spot at Blizzcon. If he'd be willing to take a leap and leave home for 6 months, he could really focus on GSL. Even if the first 3 months are getting used to a new lifestyle away from home.
Of course, some people have more problems with culture shock and homesickness than others, and if Serral really can't face an extended period away from Finland, then that's the end of that, but it really is the missing piece in his prize cabinet.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Ajax FC was a major team in the seventies, it has too much history to be fitting(and the team of this year is going to be dismembered in a few months), Monaco wasn't exactly unknown as well but at least it didn't win at european Level. National competitions may suffer a little if there aren't enough top teams to compete for the title, but european cups are simply amazing, I enjoy them.
Coming to sc2, I would love to see more international events.
Well that it was, but it can’t be any more. It’s understandably difficult to get to that level, and rare my issue is more that when clubs start getting there they get dismantled.
Yeah another tournament would be sick. I think we only need one more big weekend international tournament circuit and another StarLeague.
I think that would fill the gaps that there are, another tournament where Serral etc can play Korea’s best, and another Korean StarLeague for both fans, but also I think importantly for prize money and opportunities for Korean players.
I think that would be a good balance for most concerned with the scene.
On May 20 2019 06:07 StarcraftSquall wrote: I wish there was a way to convince Serral it’s a good idea to play a GSL Season. Really when you think about it, he’s done just about everything else. 👀
Yes, it would really be amazing. He has to go to Korea for GSL vs the World anyway.
Not only that, but he secured his spot at Blizzcon. If he'd be willing to take a leap and leave home for 6 months, he could really focus on GSL. Even if the first 3 months are getting used to a new lifestyle away from home.
Of course, some people have more problems with culture shock and homesickness than others, and if Serral really can't face an extended period away from Finland, then that's the end of that, but it really is the missing piece in his prize cabinet.
It’s definitely something the fans would like to see, myself included, ultimately I think it’s good for the scene structurally that is isn’t necessary to be a top player.
Just on the laws of probability alone there are going to be SC2 players prone to depression or other mental health issues, tbh I have zero candidates but I’m certain some players mystifying slumps are due just to that.
People are more understanding of issues around it now, I still think they’re a bit ignorant on the capabilities side cognitively, it’s not just feeling shit or unmotivated to do things, your brain can’t actually do things properly either even when you are trying.
I quit playing SC2 5 years ago when a session went so bad that I missed researching warp gate a few times, and the final straw was when I missed my 9 pylon. Gradually came back over the years, but it’s a frustrating enough game to play even if you feel sharp, if it’s your own brain letting you down it’s a rather fruitless endeavour.
I have zero idea what Serral’s like in any way, perhaps him being in a good, comfortable place is why his performances are so good, if he’s not, even in a better practice environment he might end up a worse player overall.
Sad to see Special lose like that in the final. Serral made him look clueless. It looked like Special was not confident he could win from the start. It was all relatively safe play defending against a Zerg who is ahead in bases the whole game. Eventually you just run out of steam and get overrun. Special play was not decisive enough. I liked the first game, but he should have played even more defensive. Build 50 turrets and split the map like TY would do. He had no turrets and got overrun by mass corruptors. Just stay behind dozens of turrets and some siege tanks and mass BC until you have 180 supply of them. The moveouts against neural parasite feels weak. Range lib, turrets, mines and mass BC and split map. Let the Zerg figure that one out. Inno/Maru/TY are decisive and take a lot of risk. You need to take risk against Serral. In an even game he will win wear you down.
Special needs a coach who can help him with the gameplan for a finals like that. Just playing standard games is not going to work. He had a couple hours to prepare for the finals. He came out with 1 really interesting build but that was when he was already down 2-0.
I hope he learns from this. I want Special to win. He really deserves a big win.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
The main problem is that weekenders are inherently set up to fly in from anywhere and compete, whereas preparation tournaments like GSL require you to commit to being on location for an extended period of time.
Imho, the best solution is to add a preparation tournament in the WCS circuit. Make a separate one for EU and for US to ensure travel distances to the studio aren't too insane from wherever in the region you live. The logistics are hard, but there has to be some kind of studio that can set this up? Maybe even make it offline up until the semi finals or so? Ensure that there are a lot of WCS points to be won in that tournament, and then remove the region lock from the weekenders.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
On May 20 2019 20:46 Koatique wrote: Sad to see Special lose like that in the final. Serral made him look clueless. It looked like Special was not confident he could win from the start. It was all relatively safe play defending against a Zerg who is ahead in bases the whole game. Eventually you just run out of steam and get overrun. Special play was not decisive enough. I liked the first game, but he should have played even more defensive. Build 50 turrets and split the map like TY would do. He had no turrets and got overrun by mass corruptors. Just stay behind dozens of turrets and some siege tanks and mass BC until you have 180 supply of them. The moveouts against neural parasite feels weak. Range lib, turrets, mines and mass BC and split map. Let the Zerg figure that one out. Inno/Maru/TY are decisive and take a lot of risk. You need to take risk against Serral. In an even game he will win wear you down.
Special needs a coach who can help him with the gameplan for a finals like that. Just playing standard games is not going to work. He had a couple hours to prepare for the finals. He came out with 1 really interesting build but that was when he was already down 2-0.
I hope he learns from this. I want Special to win. He really deserves a big win.
With what money though? Zerg trades too efficiently in super late game unless you turtle & nuke which means you’re left searching for that really good engagement like special was.
It seems like im not the only one that dreams of serral competing in gsl. Unfortunately that probably isint going to happen. If i remember correctly, serrals reasons for not going there were: 1. He thinks gsl is too long, he does not want to live in korea for like 3 mouths. 2. He thinks its silly that he could do it in the first place since koreans cant come to wcs ciruit in the same way.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Serral is Ajax in my comparison because despite the Dutch league being weaker, and most agreeing it absolutely is he’s still able to then compete at higher levels from there. Slavia Prague are not.
I don’t think people are arguing it’s equivalent to winning a Code S, it’s consistently dominating it to this degree, plus having made the step up in level when required that people tend to rate Serral in this regard.
Even amongst the players who could hypothetically be that consistent in winning or placing deep all the time, it’s Neeb prior and now Serral who are the ones who generally actually do it.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
11 weeks until GSLvWorld. HYYYPPPUUUU
I knew it was in that rough date slot but somehow framing it as just 11 weeks away sounds so much closer, super hyped.
It’ll be sick actually following things as they happen, on my hiatus from all things SC2 related I missed Byun’s titles, Gumiho getting a GSL and the rise of Serral, although I’ve eventually got caught up with VoDs.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in the last 3 tournament where he played only Koreans=top 16 max
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
Anyone aside from Serral is max Ro16 level, which includes Neeb who has made the Ro4 and not a million years ago either.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Serral placed first-first-5 to 8 in tournament where he plays only Koreans=top 16 max
Make sense
Learn to read? I said anyone aside from Serral... Which means he is obviously higher than RO16 level. He is at least GSL RO8 level, playing like he usually does I am sure he would challenge for a championship there.
Anyone aside from Serral is max Ro16 level, which includes Neeb who has made the Ro4 and not a million years ago either.
So Maru is a RO32 level player, because he lost 1 time in RO32 right? Same stupid logic... :/
On May 20 2019 18:21 Stormhoof wrote: Nice to see all arguments but I really think suspending region lock would do good for the scene.
I would favor a tournament lock over region lock any day As it is right now, if region lock would be suspended S-Class Koreans would have it all and it would give nothing to upcoming Korean talent. Unfortunately tournament lock would also mean that players like Special would stick to WCS
I just favour more tournaments, by and large, especially in Korea.
Region locking has actually kind of worked, foreign players can be full-time progamers because they don’t immediately have to be one of the top players in the world to make some money. The foreign scene has obviously improved in level, if it hadn’t
Korea now has that same barrier that used to exist with the foreign scene when it came to competing against Korea, but it’s with its new players vs the established top players.
Korea has swung from being an optimal place to develop as a player, internally within team houses without having to immediately rely on results, to being a place that has structural disadvantages if you’re a new player.
The existing old guard are too good to break in to without the team training environments, there are fewer teams in general anyway, and foreign teams are way less likely to pick up a promising Korean that is locked out of tournaments, or unlike previous eras isn’t going to be better than top tier foreigners.
It’s a pretty tricky one to think about resolving, if we still had Korean teams as before then we could at least have something like the Courage tournaments, but how can we have an amateur tournament to get on to pro teams that don’t exist?
Opening WCS won’t solve Korea’s biggest problems SC2 wise at present, at least IMO, and might pull back the progress the foreign scene has been making at the same time.
11 weeks until GSLvWorld. HYYYPPPUUUU
I knew it was in that rough date slot but somehow framing it as just 11 weeks away sounds so much closer, super hyped.
It’ll be sick actually following things as they happen, on my hiatus from all things SC2 related I missed Byun’s titles, Gumiho getting a GSL and the rise of Serral, although I’ve eventually got caught up with VoDs.
You can also count the days if you want: 74 days xD
Wish I’d have found this earlier, makes it so much easier to look at foreigner results in the GSL.
Last year we had Zanster and SortOf qualifying, Scarlett made the Ro8 which I didn’t know, I thought her best run was Ro16 tbh.
WCS now is a higher level than the era you’re talking about, IMO anyway, both right at the top and but definitely in depth if field.
5 years ago when the gap between Korea and the foreign scene was much bigger, the Koreans who made the swap to the EU didn’t have it all their own way, and that gap has shrunk hugely in the last half a decade.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb(ro4) and Reynor(ro16) made their runs at their first try if I remember correctly; Special is indeed a top foreigner but he never reached the finals of WCS before yesterday, he mostly performs at BlizzCon. ShowTimE is better than your average ro32 korean; Zanster, SortOf and(especially) NoRegreT definitely are not top foreigners, but they qualified for Code S. I guess you must think Solar is bad, he reaches ro8 very rarely.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:17 Veluvian wrote: Many people wish to see Serral in GSL, but to be honest now we are living in a better scenario. Serral should keep focusing upon WGS's premier tournaments the year, not because he'll still dominate for a while, but he is the only opportunity to make other non-Korean players to improve and he can set a well working competitive environment. Serral could be one of the reasons to see in the future more shocks of defeated koreans by non-koreans in top tier tournaments, because he sets a high standard in every circuit where he plays. I know that for some pro-s this could sound bad, but do you really want to play better tomorrow? Serral is probably the best player I've ever seen in SCII history yet, but he will eventually start losing some day. I'm a Dark fan, but Serral is THE zerg, THE perfection at this moment and I cannot deny it. Yes, koreans still can dominate, but we don't see how non-koreans are drastically humiliated anymore like how that happened in the past years. During Serral dominance Neeb improved a lot, we got Ranor doing well and shocked in GSL once last year, Special is like walking on his own path, no sure for Showtime yet, but this is how I look the future.
That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Making the ro4 once doesn't make you a ro4 level player. Or would you say Ryung was a ro4 level player in 2017?
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Making the ro4 once doesn't make you a ro4 level player. Or would you say Ryung was a ro4 level player in 2017?
You cannot really say the opposite since that was Neeb's first ro4 attempt. As for Ryung, he made ro4 in S1 2017 right after reaching ro8 in S2 2016 so I would say he pretty much was at the time. What about souL eliminating Stats? Upset can happen, they are not the norm. However, if Code S was (still)as hard to get into as you make it to be, so many upset would have happened in such a short timespan.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
Judging a player by one result is fun.
And yet you guys started doing it with Neeb, calling him a GSL RO4 player based on 1 performance. We only point out the stupid logic in those kind of statements.
On May 20 2019 16:55 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
[quote] I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
Judging a player by one result is fun.
And yet you guys started doing it with Neeb, calling him a GSL RO4 player based on 1 performance. We only point out the stupid logic in those kind of statements.
Wait, who is "you guys"? I certainly didn't post that. Don't try to assume that because I share one opinion with someone I share all of his/her opinions.
On May 20 2019 16:55 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
[quote] I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
Neeb tried to qualify for GSL in 2017 S3 but was knocked out in the decider. By Hurricane, iirc. It was kinda a big deal at the time. I don't believe he tried again until his Ro4 run.
Failing to qualify -> Ro4 is a pretty big jump, and 2017 Neeb was arguably stronger than 2018 Neeb too.
It gets so boring now Serral keeps winning everything. Just hand him the trophy before the tournament even begins. Maybe they should put Serral in Korea region and not allow him to play any other foreign tournaments,
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
Well just think about the last 5 players to make wcs finals against Serral. Showtime, Mana, Has, Reynor, Special. Reynor and Special would be close matches but I think he's definitely favored in all of them by at least a small amount. Neeb might be favored vs Keen but he always chokes somewhere.
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
There are players like Inno and Dark who imo, are definitely stronger who often get eliminated in ro16 (especially Inno, even in 2017). I think Neeb would probably make it to ro16 and could make ro8 and beyond occasionally but is less likely than otherwise. I've always felt like Neeb was close in strength to players like Dear or Trap, who tend to be ro16 players (at least in the past, not really as true nowadays since they're both doing well).
Edit: I don't think this means foreigners are really weak or anything crazy like that but I am just trying to emphasize how difficult the ro16 is. There are many high level Koreans who I would not strongly favour to make it out of ro16, like the ones I've mentioned but also soO, Gumiho. Only players who I would bet could make ro8 most of the time are Maru, Stats, Classic, and Serral if he participated in GSL. In the past, I would have included Rogue, Zest and TY but they are not in very good form nowadays.
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
Well just think about the last 5 players to make wcs finals against Serral. Showtime, Mana, Has, Reynor, Special. Reynor and Special would be close matches but I think he's definitely favored in all of them by at least a small amount. Neeb might be favored vs Keen but he always chokes somewhere.
Mana and Has were big upsets, Keen shouldn't be favored against any of the other top foreigners.
Polt and his comrades only won three tournaments out of ten in the foreign scene in 2016 and now Keen would be the top dog if he played in WCS? I highly doubt that.
Anc13nt, your opinion is reasonable and it might very well be as you say; thinking Neeb would never be able to pass through ro16, seems unrealistic to me.
On May 20 2019 18:53 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
There are players like Inno and Dark who imo, are definitely stronger who often get eliminated in ro16 (especially Inno, even in 2017). I think Neeb would probably make it to ro16 and could make ro8 and beyond occasionally but is less likely than otherwise. I've always felt like Neeb was close in strength to players like Dear or Trap, who tend to be ro16 players (at least in the past, not really as true nowadays since they're both doing well).
Edit: I don't think this means foreigners are really weak or anything crazy like that but I am just trying to emphasize how difficult the ro16 is. There are many high level Koreans who I would not strongly favour to make it out of ro16, like the ones I've mentioned but also soO, Gumiho. Only players who I would bet could make ro8 most of the time are Maru, Stats, Classic, and Serral if he participated in GSL. In the past, I would have included Rogue, Zest and TY but they are not in very good form nowadays.
Well it is difficult to do, that’s why when foreigners do manage it it’s a pretty big achievement.
The GSL can’t be simultaneously insanely stacked, but also a competition where a player can fluke a run to a Ro8 or a Ro4
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
On May 20 2019 18:53 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
RagnaroK at the moment is looking very strong. And nobody ever said WCS is as hard or as deep as GSL.
Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
On May 20 2019 21:24 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
RagnaroK at the moment is looking very strong. And nobody ever said WCS is as hard or as deep as GSL.
Someone said GSL isn't much harder. That's clearly untrue because there are so many players in GSL who can compete with the best the other regions have to offer. Here are GSL players who would be likely to make very deep WCS runs or even win the tournament outright.
Classic, Maru, Dark, Trap, Cure, Dear, Impact, Gumiho, Innovation, soO, Stats, TY, Solar, Ragnarok, Rogue, Parting, sOs at the very least.
Even players like Alive, Creator, Fantasy, Hurricane, Leenock, Patience, Keen, Zest, Trust would probably make it deep into the WCS rounds.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
RagnaroK at the moment is looking very strong. And nobody ever said WCS is as hard or as deep as GSL.
Someone said GSL isn't much harder. That's clearly untrue because there are so many players in GSL who can compete with the best the other regions have to offer. Here are GSL players who would be likely to make very deep WCS runs or even win the tournament outright.
Classic, Maru, Dark, Trap, Cure, Dear, Impact, Gumiho, Innovation, soO, Stats, TY, Solar, Ragnarok, Rogue, Parting, sOs at the very least.
Even players like Alive, Creator, Fantasy, Hurricane, Leenock, Patience, Keen, Zest, Trust would probably make it deep into the WCS rounds.
They could, arguments seem to just shift yardsticks all the time.
So Neeb making a Ro4 can be a one-off fluke, because GSL is hard and even making it through the Ro16 consistently is super hard (which it is). GSL is so stacked that making the Ro4 > WCS (which arguably it does), but a foreigner does it and the yardstick becomes ‘well he couldn’t do it every season’ (which nobody has claimed)
But Serral winning all WCS but one, when he was a runner up doesn’t count for shit because WCS is easy and GSL is hard or something.
Just qualifying is super hard and the Ro32 doesn’t have weak players and foreigners outside of those that have tried just wouldn’t qualify. Except SortOf/Zanster/NoRegret who wouldn’t be anywhere near top 8 in WCS right now.
Special is better than x foreigner who hasn’t been playing in Korea for years, despite him competing in WCS and not having won one yet.
On May 21 2019 07:03 terribleplayer1 wrote: Have a chance to make a deep run != winning every WCS tournament, there's a fucking huge humongous difference.
Tons of WCS players have a chance to make a deep run too.
Neeb has 1 WCS RO4 last year, and 1 GSL RO4.
No foreigner has even come close to dominating the foreign scene like Serral is doing at present, ever.
Guys like Jinro and Idra who were competitive in earlier GSLs and were ahead of the curve in ways in early WoL didn’t do it. Stephano did some crazy things at times and was definitely the top foreigner at his peak, he still didn’t dominate other foreigners like this. Naniwa at his absolute peak didn’t do it
It’s not even that they didn’t dominate exactly like Serral now, they didn’t even come close to it.
The closest by a distance any other foreigner came to dominating other foreigners to that degree is Neeb.
The point is GSL is much more loaded and has a drastically stronger overall player field. Serral's accomplishments at WCS are still very impressive, especially since he's crushing it and showing that he belongs in a stronger league.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
That's... actually not bad. Like you said, minor quibbles here and there but overall I like it.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
That's... actually not bad. Like you said, minor quibbles here and there but overall I like it.
I think it’s pretty on the money myself, absolutely like it.
I’ll add say a plus 7 places powerup on individual tournaments but I think that’s about right. Foreigners in that tier are about 15+ if I was to rate the scene, but if they have a good tournament can still place top 8+. So Neeb in peak form can maybe win a tournament even with Koreans if the stars align, but in general on balance can’t, which kind of dovetails with his actual career.
Only Serral feels he could do it super consistently.
GSL is never a lock vs level of play, it’s unbelievably hard to actually win one. Taeja couldn’t do it and he showed unbelievable play, against the top players of his time, dominated weekenders etc. You give Serral a full season and I think it’s unlikely he doesn’t place at least Ro4 once, and him doing better wouldn’t be surprising
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead.
I think it’s largely a good list, I consider it vaguely a bracketing where (matchups aside) it’s a 50/50 shot for either play in s series in those tiers.
What’s changed to me is there are a lot more foreigners I feel who I think can on their day straight up win a Bo3 series with a Korean, even if it’s just a singular series. Not luck out, but if they’re on their game they can legit win on any given day. I don’t fancy their chances in beating two in a row, but they can beat one. Which becomes pertinent in ‘any top Korean can win WCS like Serral’ discussions.
That’s in vaguely general play too, that’s not even counting people who are good matchup snipers.
Best Koreans are still the best, just how it is. Compared to previous eras where I’d say maybe foreigners had 5 or so of the top 50, I don’t think 15-20 of the top 50 is at at all reasonable nowadays.
Of that maybe only one foreigner is in the top 10, so GSL still has the edge on absolute quality, but gone are the days B/C tier Korean players stomped on foreigners.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead.
Curious what you disagree with? I think if you replaced Serral with anyone in my 1st list they'd at least make the semifinals and have at least decent chances to win the entire thing.
I think the only Koreans who could easily achieve/surpass Serral-level domination in WCS are Stats, Maru, and Dark. Clasic, Rogue, TY, Gumiho could probably too but the chances are lower for them imo.
The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans.
On May 21 2019 09:37 BerserkSword wrote: I think the only Koreans who could easily achieve/surpass Serral-level domination in WCS are Stats, Maru, and Dark. Clasic, Rogue, TY, Gumiho could probably too but the chances are lower for them imo.
The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans.
Not easily and I'm still not sure they would be able to but pretty much the ones you named(Inno surely has the skill but his power waxes and wanes too much to keep winning for that much time); Maru could, but would he avoid to choke in a weekender format? There are too many Zerg(and too many finals…) in WCS for Dark to dominate while Stats, despite being very consistent, showed us he is extremely vulnerable in his worst days.
I am obviously speaking of the four/five WCS championships streak, all the koreans you listed could win one or more.
I would give any code S ro32 player favorable odds to reach WCS ro4, any of them, with the exclusion of Losira, True, MC and Hurricane. It really is Serral >>>>>>>>>>> reynor, neeb, special >> everyone else.
On May 21 2019 10:40 IshinShishi wrote: I would give any code S ro32 player favorable odds to reach WCS ro4, any of them, with the exclusion of Losira, True, MC and Hurricane. It really is Serral >>>>>>>>>>> reynor, neeb, special >> everyone else.
I think lambo and showtime need to be in the conversation as well but anyway u slice it..the depth in Kr is what makes it insane. Thats the reason people (myself included) were losing their shit about Marus streak. All of the players are so good that they can actually knock any other player out on a given night with a few exceptions. Where as WCS has literal multi tier levels with giant gaps in them where its actually impossible for someone from the lower 3/4 to beat the top lvl players..so this is limiting the possibilities for elimination for the serrals and neebs by an enormous margin. Where as u stick those players in code S or even something much weaker like IEM or WESG and they will get to a point much earlier on in the tournament where if they dont play perfect they will absolutely be getting sent home early. I dont think people would say inno and soO are the top of Kr (definitely in the top tier) but they are examples of what Im talking about. Throw in that in actuality you arent really preparing for Terrans in WCS leaves 1 less matchup to practice for...vs going into Kr and being gtd to hit a god tier terran or 2 ..its just vastly different.
Whoever doubted Serral because of the beginning of 2019 has to take something into consideration. First, one of the match he lost were against Innovation (3:4, WESG).
It was just after a big patch that nerfed queens, creep spread, and hydras dps. At the same time as giving terran more openings(bcs, speed banshee,etc) and changing cyclones again.
Obviously changes like that would affect someone that relies on solid play, and would need time to adjust. Lets also not forget Serral doesnt really get to practice versus Maru and Innovation level of terrans. His strongest terran oppositions on ladder are Uthermal and heromarine. And while those two are amazing, they are no Innovation or Maru.
Despite all that, it was still only a 3:4 loss.
Then there was the 3:4 loss against Reynor, but i think it was more Reynor playing out of his mind, and Serral getting back into the zone slowly after winning half a million dollars and having a couple months of holidays with family, and more money than he could dream of. When he got his revenge against Reynor this weekend, he really showed him who is boss. I have no doubt he can do the same versus Innovation next time.
Im going to trigger some folks here, but im still going to say it.
Serral IS the best player in the world, both in terms of skill level and potential. To demonstrate this level of consistency and dominance with Zerg is not something we have seen a lot in the history of Starcraft2. Only soO and Life have. Zerg is a very volatile race where there is many ways to lose games to stupid builds or little mistakes.
Time will prove me right I am pretty confident. His skill level is simply insane.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
It really is too bad what happened to the depth of the KR scene. Looking back in the Kespa era even Code A was crazy stacked.
I agree with the notion that Serral is the best player. However, since we believe that, we also want to see him challenged. Who knows how long his run will last which is why I wish he would go play at least one GSL Code S while he’s in the form he is currently. Code S provides a level of competition that is unavailable in the rest of the world. We don’t want to debate, we want to see how good he TRULY is. 👀
PS: I was also disappointed that Neeb let himself get cheesed out against SpeCial in the semifinals because Neeb has been the one foreigner that has given him a tough time in series consistently other than Reynor. Maybe we’ll get that matchup one of these events. To be fair though... I don’t think anyone was stopping him Sunday. He was in Buzzsaw Mode. 😬
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
Zanster qualified once out of how many tries?
Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster.
Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried.
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
Zanster qualified once out of how many tries?
Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster.
Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried.
Your words would be so true if we were in 2015, now qualifying for Code S is easier and Zanster is weaker(at least if we compare him with his non korean fellows).
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this:
Korean top 1-4 Serral
Korean top 5-8 -
Korean top 9-14 Neeb
Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett
Easy, right ?
I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer)
Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR
True, good to see him back in form.
I really do think it’s a matter of on a good day too, but 10-15 foreigners could qualify for the GSL Ro32 IMO, at least l.
This really isn’t hyperbolic it’s watching the games of the worst players that scrape into it every season now, the reds usually a couple for whom Ro32 is clearly their ceiling on current shape, plus based on the foreigners who have qualified and where I’d place them on a top foreigner list.
It is cool that some of those players are returning legends and I hope they get into shape, so I’m not being critical of them as they do that.
It’s not just the usual suspects either, the foreign scene has a bunch of really talented players who are 17/18 and now have the WCS circuit to develop on further.
I mean if Zanster could qualify for GSL Ro32 literally any decent foreigner could.
Zanster qualified once out of how many tries?
Also pretty wrong statement to make regardless - I would only put him behind Serral/Lambo/Elazer/Reynor EU - close with Namshar perhaps a bit better - and would be number 1 NA lmao (Scarlett being Kr). Any "decent" foreigner implies nominal skill for a foreigner - which is way below Zanster.
Qualifying for code S once is a great achievement for a good foreigner. Nobody is saying good foreigners would never qualify for code S - getting passed the gatekeepers though is very rare even for the better ones who have tried.
I mean people have been saying that in this thread to be fair
I was gutted when Special beat Neeb in the first semis because I knew Serral would steamroll Special that hard... The only remaining question was : "Would Reynor stop Serral again ?"
His qualification kinda "ruined" the great Neeb vs Serral finals that would, imo, have been much more unpredictable. (Neeb is 14-11 against Serral, including 3-0 & 2-0 results the last times they met, but then again it's Serral, he's capable of winning against anyone)