On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote:
On May 20 2019 16:25 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] That's not true, they will improve in ZvX. (which is why so many Zergs in WCS look so good in ZvZ but bad in anything else(except Serral)
Serral in WCS doesn't improve PvT, PvP & TvT. While he improves overall mechanics it's not enough to improve in MU on this level. (also let's not pretend RO32 Code S didn't fall down, except for a surprise here and there it's pretty stable to predict who will advance)
Edit> You were not watchin GSL vs The World? Blizzcon? IEM? Except Serral(who is good), Neeb & mjr Special(both in a good form) foreigner were demolished.
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
Judging a player by one result is fun.
And yet you guys started doing it with Neeb, calling him a GSL RO4 player based on 1 performance. We only point out the stupid logic in those kind of statements.
On May 20 2019 16:55 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
[quote] I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
On May 20 2019 16:50 Ej_ wrote: Imagine you win a big tournament and the first reaction numerous people have is bad mouthing it and other competitors.
While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
On May 20 2019 16:54 Veluvian wrote: [quote]
Yes, I know what I've watched. Watch carefully the match between Neeb and TY in GSL Season 3 last year. Yes, TY defeated him, but nothing was certain until the last seconds of the whole epic match. And it was no different in the Blizzcon group A when they met again. And I didn't use to be a Neeb fan at all but I was so impressed! Progress is not always in numbers and statistics in the beginning, time is needed and then we shall see who is right and who is wrong.
I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
On May 21 2019 00:12 Charoisaur wrote: Reynor, arguably the 2nd or 3rd best foreigner got knocked out of the IEM qualifiers by GSL ro32 cannon-fodder Creator... just throwing this out here.
Ooh! Let me try. Maru, arguably the best Korean got knocked out of GSL in the first round by ro32 cannon-fodder Patience...
Judging a player by one result is fun.
And yet you guys started doing it with Neeb, calling him a GSL RO4 player based on 1 performance. We only point out the stupid logic in those kind of statements.
Wait, who is "you guys"? I certainly didn't post that. Don't try to assume that because I share one opinion with someone I share all of his/her opinions.
On May 20 2019 16:55 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] While I don't like it either, let's use a football example.
Czech football league just crowned their champion - Slavia Prague. Imagine their fans to say - now they're the bestest everest and they're better than all the other teams. While some other fans will tell them this championship title isn't even comparable to top4 in the Premier LEague (considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't )
It's not the best comparison, but many people just go against "Serral just proves he;s the bestest everst" (except few)
[quote] I love how you selected the player I wrote as an exception, there were always foreigners which were the exception to the rule(e.g. NaNiwa, ThorZaiN, Scarlett)
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
Neeb tried to qualify for GSL in 2017 S3 but was knocked out in the decider. By Hurricane, iirc. It was kinda a big deal at the time. I don't believe he tried again until his Ro4 run.
Failing to qualify -> Ro4 is a pretty big jump, and 2017 Neeb was arguably stronger than 2018 Neeb too.
It gets so boring now Serral keeps winning everything. Just hand him the trophy before the tournament even begins. Maybe they should put Serral in Korea region and not allow him to play any other foreign tournaments,
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
Well just think about the last 5 players to make wcs finals against Serral. Showtime, Mana, Has, Reynor, Special. Reynor and Special would be close matches but I think he's definitely favored in all of them by at least a small amount. Neeb might be favored vs Keen but he always chokes somewhere.
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
There are players like Inno and Dark who imo, are definitely stronger who often get eliminated in ro16 (especially Inno, even in 2017). I think Neeb would probably make it to ro16 and could make ro8 and beyond occasionally but is less likely than otherwise. I've always felt like Neeb was close in strength to players like Dear or Trap, who tend to be ro16 players (at least in the past, not really as true nowadays since they're both doing well).
Edit: I don't think this means foreigners are really weak or anything crazy like that but I am just trying to emphasize how difficult the ro16 is. There are many high level Koreans who I would not strongly favour to make it out of ro16, like the ones I've mentioned but also soO, Gumiho. Only players who I would bet could make ro8 most of the time are Maru, Stats, Classic, and Serral if he participated in GSL. In the past, I would have included Rogue, Zest and TY but they are not in very good form nowadays.
On May 21 2019 03:05 JJH777 wrote: For a WCS without Serral I would actually consider Keen the favorite. Not by a huge margin but he'd be the player I give the highest chance too.
Fascinating, to say the least. They should make Markku adopt Keen so that he can go moose hunting and dominate the WCS Circuit while Serral has fun in GSL.
Does Keen stream anywhere? I'd love to ask his opinion directly.
Well just think about the last 5 players to make wcs finals against Serral. Showtime, Mana, Has, Reynor, Special. Reynor and Special would be close matches but I think he's definitely favored in all of them by at least a small amount. Neeb might be favored vs Keen but he always chokes somewhere.
Mana and Has were big upsets, Keen shouldn't be favored against any of the other top foreigners.
Polt and his comrades only won three tournaments out of ten in the foreign scene in 2016 and now Keen would be the top dog if he played in WCS? I highly doubt that.
Anc13nt, your opinion is reasonable and it might very well be as you say; thinking Neeb would never be able to pass through ro16, seems unrealistic to me.
On May 20 2019 18:53 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
Eh, no. We all know that Neeb only made RO8 (RO4) because he had another foreigner in his RO16 group... Bracket luck. And I value Neeb, but he is simply not good enough to consistently make RO8 in GSL, without bracket luck. And he is the 2nd best foreigner.
Its actually the complete opposite. You guys are totally clueless about how strong GSL still is. WCS has strong RO8 (kinda). GSL has strong RO32 (3-4 players use to be weaker but still a lot stronger than most of circuit players). That is a big difference!
Nobody actually said Neeb would get to ro4 on a regular basis, but I think he could get to ro8 more often than not, unlike you; those are only opinions, what happened in reality is that he got to ro4 the first time he qualified. Bracket luck, you say? Neeb had Maru in his ro16 group and Reynor was definitely better than Impact; it's not like he had it easy in the ro8, he beat 3-1 none other than Rogue.
I would find hard to justify non top foreigners qualifying for Code S and high tier foreigners(still worse than many koreans in your opinion) making notable runs if the level of GSL was so much higher than WCS' as you think; those pitiful foreigners really are lucky, huh?
Code S level decreased at its lower stages, WCS level really didn't(except maybe in comparison to early 2016 when every skilled foreigner seemed to be back to the game and was competing, the depth was truly amazing): up and comers stepped up and new ones are appearing, foreigners became more competitive against "korean" koreans.
If we exclude IEM and Deamhack, MMA getting to BlizzCon's final was the best result a "Foreigner" korean was capable of reaching, they were better than foreigners until LoTV came(TRUE and violet went kicked out of BlizzCon 2016 without a win, even if Poly and Hydra were absent there) but they weren't exactly part of the true élite of korean progamers(with notable exceptions like TaeJa; many of them were top tier players past their prime). Do you think a Duckdeok or a Pigbaby could happen in nowadays WCS? Do you think Keen would lift the trophy?
There are players like Inno and Dark who imo, are definitely stronger who often get eliminated in ro16 (especially Inno, even in 2017). I think Neeb would probably make it to ro16 and could make ro8 and beyond occasionally but is less likely than otherwise. I've always felt like Neeb was close in strength to players like Dear or Trap, who tend to be ro16 players (at least in the past, not really as true nowadays since they're both doing well).
Edit: I don't think this means foreigners are really weak or anything crazy like that but I am just trying to emphasize how difficult the ro16 is. There are many high level Koreans who I would not strongly favour to make it out of ro16, like the ones I've mentioned but also soO, Gumiho. Only players who I would bet could make ro8 most of the time are Maru, Stats, Classic, and Serral if he participated in GSL. In the past, I would have included Rogue, Zest and TY but they are not in very good form nowadays.
Well it is difficult to do, that’s why when foreigners do manage it it’s a pretty big achievement.
The GSL can’t be simultaneously insanely stacked, but also a competition where a player can fluke a run to a Ro8 or a Ro4
I must have missed Slavia Praga winning Champions League last year with other czech teams making deep runs in european leagues; your comparison is off, the distance between Premier League and Czech First League is enormous if compared to the one between Code S and WCS.
There is a higher number of stronger players in Code S, for sure but that didn't stop foreigners not named Serral from doing pretty well lately; no one in Code S is as strong as Maru in the format(many are better than him you have to play in weekenders).
Dark's streak against non koreans ended years ago, he is deadly but not untouchable anymore; his ZvZ is not strong enough for me to be convinced he could dominate the Circuit.
As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
On May 20 2019 18:53 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] As a football fan I think Ajax is the more pertinent example, or Monaco in recent years.
Make the Champions League semis, squads get picked apart by the big boys of Europe in more prestige leagues. End result is the big leagues just get stronger and the weak leagues get weaker and weaker over time
As a relatively neutral football fan, this process is gradually killing off my interest in the game, I’m not alone in this but alas I’m in the minority who are gradually become less tolerant of it and just not watching, rather than continuing while moaning.
Think I first started watching tail end of the 90s, since then Scotland can’t even compete at the Ro32 CL level, Belgium isn’t competitive there, Dutch teams need a crazy generation and hope they have a deep run in the singular year they get to keep them.
If Ajax keep together the best team they have since they won under van Gaal, sure maybe they stomp the Eredivisie but clubs there get a better standard to play against, plus perhaps more eyes are drawn on the league to watch a great Ajax team, sponsors eyes may follow and it might help other clubs.
Stacking Europe’s top leagues and top clubs with more and more of the talent may see a higher level of play at the very very top tier, but it might see negative ripples to everything else.
Region locking seems to have actually worked in improving the foreign scene and I like the structure that is there.
If anything Korea needs some love now, at least more prize money or another StarLeague to replace the SSL. I can’t think offhand of a top player they’ve produced since the team house structure got dismantled.
Isn't PSG winning the French league consistently? That's the reason why I picked Slavia. They won lower league(WCS) which is not even comparable to 4th place in the Premier League(Code S). I'm not comparing the teams, I'm comparing the competitions. The truth is that winning WCS means beating worse players than who are in Code S except few(currently Neeb, Serral, Scarlett, Reynor and mjr Special and only Neeb and Serral are consistent enough IMO)) Let's briefly check Serral's road to victory: Clem, Kelazhur, Nerchio - not code S level. Lambo, TIME, Reynor, Special - Reynor & Special are.
So, Serral had to defeat 2 good players. Anyone who gets out of Code S RO16 had the same path, they had to beat at least 2 good players. So while winning WCS is really nice and certainly is nice for Serral's bank account it's not that big of an achievement when looking at the bigger picture.
Fine, my example was extreme, but it's still valid. WCS victory isn't on par with Code S, FFS if you list the players who Serral faced some would say it's around RO16 level... I give it usually Code S RO4.
Magnitude is indeed the problem, I would be surprised to see Slavia Praga end higher than tenth in Premier League; Code S is undeniably higher and more prestigious than WCS, but definitely not to that extent.
When Armani, TRUE and DRG qualify for Code S, you would like to sell me that Lambo and TIME are not strong enough? I am not even convinced Clem, Kelazhur and Nerchio are worse than those three, at the moment. In Code S, while ro8 looks as competitive as ever, ro32 is a joke to reach compared to how hard it was during KeSpa's Golden Age.
WCS, on the other hand, has now a very respectable depth(mostly due to the european scene), a good number of shining stars capable of beating top koreans in their best days and a world class S-tier champion, who is obviously Serral.
LOL. Nerchio wouldnt even qualify for RO32 code S. Ever. Some players in RO32 GSL are comparable to the likes of Lambo and Showtime, but those are maybe 5-6 players. Rest are miles ahead. Hell anyone aside from Serral is on maximum RO16 code S level.
And unlike you, I can prove it with facts. How many times did a foreigner reach RO8 Code S? From how many tries? And only the top foreigners play/played there (Scarlett, Neeb, Special, Reynor).
You overestimate WCS, which is basically a weaker Olimoleague, and you dont have a single argument to support your claim. I dont understand how can you be this deluded, seriously man, drop this charade
Neeb has already made a Ro4, not even that long agoso it’s not even some hypothetical. What are these facts of which you speak?
NoRegret has made it through qualifiers, and this isn’t insulting him I imagine the man himself would say so, he’s nowhere near the level of a whole bunch of the top Europeans.
Neeb has made 1 RO4. Scarlett 1 RO8. Again, from how many tries? 5? 10? 15? How many times did Special fail in GSL qualifiers? He failed more than he reached RO32 that is for sure. And that is Special we are talking about, top tier foreigner.
Don't be ridiculous guys. WCS is a joke compared to Code S quality wise. I am sure everyone will have no problem acknowledging the fact that Code S level decreased, but so did WCS level. There is no more Polt, Hydra, MC, MMA anymore. Just Serral, 4 other players that can be considered above average for a Korean standard, and the rest...
Ehh, Neeb made ro4 last year on GSL in 1 try, did he make ro4 on WCS last year? Reynor made ro16 in 1 try...
A lot of it is simply bracket luck, but you guys are really overplaying how hard GSL is, it's harder than WCS but not that much harder, GSL is really only down to top players at the ro8, ro16 you still have plenty of weaker players.
It is way harder. Even a player like Ragnarok is better than anyone in WCS other than Serral. They have way more depth in gsl, so many players that would go super deep in WCS.
Ragnarok is actually one of the few newcomers in the GSL that shows promise. I'd still favour Neeb or Reynor over him by a good margin. And probably Showtime as well. Maybe not Special after what he showed in TvZ yesterday tho.
E: and yes, I know Ragnarok isn't technically a newcomer. It's just that recently he's gotten into the spotlight, as opposed to being Code A/Ro32 cannonfodder.
The fact that you need to jump to the WCS ro4 to name opponents that are favoured vs Ragnarok kinda proves that the GSL is a harder and deeper tournament.
RagnaroK at the moment is looking very strong. And nobody ever said WCS is as hard or as deep as GSL.
EPT
(considering their match on Chelsea... nah, it isn't 
)
