EPTKorean top 1-4
Serral
Korean top 5-8
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Korean top 9-14
Neeb
Korean top 15-20
Reynor
Special
Showtime
Scarlett
Easy, right ?
Serral wins WCS Spring, claims fifth circuit title - Page 7
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Starcloud
138 Posts
Korean top 1-4 Serral Korean top 5-8 - Korean top 9-14 Neeb Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett Easy, right ? | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On May 21 2019 04:54 Xain0n wrote: RagnaroK at the moment is looking very strong. And nobody ever said WCS is as hard or as deep as GSL. Someone said GSL isn't much harder. That's clearly untrue because there are so many players in GSL who can compete with the best the other regions have to offer. Here are GSL players who would be likely to make very deep WCS runs or even win the tournament outright. Classic, Maru, Dark, Trap, Cure, Dear, Impact, Gumiho, Innovation, soO, Stats, TY, Solar, Ragnarok, Rogue, Parting, sOs at the very least. Even players like Alive, Creator, Fantasy, Hurricane, Leenock, Patience, Keen, Zest, Trust would probably make it deep into the WCS rounds. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26248 Posts
On May 21 2019 05:42 NinjaNight wrote: Someone said GSL isn't much harder. That's clearly untrue because there are so many players in GSL who can compete with the best the other regions have to offer. Here are GSL players who would be likely to make very deep WCS runs or even win the tournament outright. Classic, Maru, Dark, Trap, Cure, Dear, Impact, Gumiho, Innovation, soO, Stats, TY, Solar, Ragnarok, Rogue, Parting, sOs at the very least. Even players like Alive, Creator, Fantasy, Hurricane, Leenock, Patience, Keen, Zest, Trust would probably make it deep into the WCS rounds. They could, arguments seem to just shift yardsticks all the time. So Neeb making a Ro4 can be a one-off fluke, because GSL is hard and even making it through the Ro16 consistently is super hard (which it is). GSL is so stacked that making the Ro4 > WCS (which arguably it does), but a foreigner does it and the yardstick becomes ‘well he couldn’t do it every season’ (which nobody has claimed) But Serral winning all WCS but one, when he was a runner up doesn’t count for shit because WCS is easy and GSL is hard or something. Just qualifying is super hard and the Ro32 doesn’t have weak players and foreigners outside of those that have tried just wouldn’t qualify. Except SortOf/Zanster/NoRegret who wouldn’t be anywhere near top 8 in WCS right now. Special is better than x foreigner who hasn’t been playing in Korea for years, despite him competing in WCS and not having won one yet. | ||
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terribleplayer1
95 Posts
Tons of WCS players have a chance to make a deep run too. Neeb has 1 WCS RO4 last year, and 1 GSL RO4. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26248 Posts
On May 21 2019 07:03 terribleplayer1 wrote: Have a chance to make a deep run != winning every WCS tournament, there's a fucking huge humongous difference. Tons of WCS players have a chance to make a deep run too. Neeb has 1 WCS RO4 last year, and 1 GSL RO4. No foreigner has even come close to dominating the foreign scene like Serral is doing at present, ever. Guys like Jinro and Idra who were competitive in earlier GSLs and were ahead of the curve in ways in early WoL didn’t do it. Stephano did some crazy things at times and was definitely the top foreigner at his peak, he still didn’t dominate other foreigners like this. Naniwa at his absolute peak didn’t do it It’s not even that they didn’t dominate exactly like Serral now, they didn’t even come close to it. The closest by a distance any other foreigner came to dominating other foreigners to that degree is Neeb. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this: Korean top 1-4 Serral Korean top 5-8 - Korean top 9-14 Neeb Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett Easy, right ? That's... actually not bad. Like you said, minor quibbles here and there but overall I like it. | ||
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GumBa
United Kingdom31935 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26248 Posts
On May 21 2019 08:02 Kitai wrote: That's... actually not bad. Like you said, minor quibbles here and there but overall I like it. I think it’s pretty on the money myself, absolutely like it. I’ll add say a plus 7 places powerup on individual tournaments but I think that’s about right. Foreigners in that tier are about 15+ if I was to rate the scene, but if they have a good tournament can still place top 8+. So Neeb in peak form can maybe win a tournament even with Koreans if the stars align, but in general on balance can’t, which kind of dovetails with his actual career. Only Serral feels he could do it super consistently. GSL is never a lock vs level of play, it’s unbelievably hard to actually win one. Taeja couldn’t do it and he showed unbelievable play, against the top players of his time, dominated weekenders etc. You give Serral a full season and I think it’s unlikely he doesn’t place at least Ro4 once, and him doing better wouldn’t be surprising | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this: Korean top 1-4 Serral Korean top 5-8 - Korean top 9-14 Neeb Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett Easy, right ? I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26248 Posts
On May 21 2019 08:23 Xain0n wrote: I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead. I think it’s largely a good list, I consider it vaguely a bracketing where (matchups aside) it’s a 50/50 shot for either play in s series in those tiers. What’s changed to me is there are a lot more foreigners I feel who I think can on their day straight up win a Bo3 series with a Korean, even if it’s just a singular series. Not luck out, but if they’re on their game they can legit win on any given day. I don’t fancy their chances in beating two in a row, but they can beat one. Which becomes pertinent in ‘any top Korean can win WCS like Serral’ discussions. That’s in vaguely general play too, that’s not even counting people who are good matchup snipers. Best Koreans are still the best, just how it is. Compared to previous eras where I’d say maybe foreigners had 5 or so of the top 50, I don’t think 15-20 of the top 50 is at at all reasonable nowadays. Of that maybe only one foreigner is in the top 10, so GSL still has the edge on absolute quality, but gone are the days B/C tier Korean players stomped on foreigners. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On May 21 2019 08:23 Xain0n wrote: I would move up some of them but overall this list is almost alright. Ninjanight's should be cut in half to mirror my opinion, instead. Curious what you disagree with? I think if you replaced Serral with anyone in my 1st list they'd at least make the semifinals and have at least decent chances to win the entire thing. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On May 21 2019 09:37 BerserkSword wrote: I think the only Koreans who could easily achieve/surpass Serral-level domination in WCS are Stats, Maru, and Dark. Clasic, Rogue, TY, Gumiho could probably too but the chances are lower for them imo. The 5 best foreigners (Serral, Neeb, Scarlett, Reynor, Special) can, at the very least, knock out any Korean, even the elite ones, on any given day. Neeb and Serral have proven they can go the whole distance with a deck stacked with the best Koreans. Not easily and I'm still not sure they would be able to but pretty much the ones you named(Inno surely has the skill but his power waxes and wanes too much to keep winning for that much time); Maru could, but would he avoid to choke in a weekender format? There are too many Zerg(and too many finals…) in WCS for Dark to dominate while Stats, despite being very consistent, showed us he is extremely vulnerable in his worst days. I am obviously speaking of the four/five WCS championships streak, all the koreans you listed could win one or more. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On May 21 2019 10:40 IshinShishi wrote: I would give any code S ro32 player favorable odds to reach WCS ro4, any of them, with the exclusion of Losira, True, MC and Hurricane. It really is Serral >>>>>>>>>>> reynor, neeb, special >> everyone else. I think lambo and showtime need to be in the conversation as well but anyway u slice it..the depth in Kr is what makes it insane. Thats the reason people (myself included) were losing their shit about Marus streak. All of the players are so good that they can actually knock any other player out on a given night with a few exceptions. Where as WCS has literal multi tier levels with giant gaps in them where its actually impossible for someone from the lower 3/4 to beat the top lvl players..so this is limiting the possibilities for elimination for the serrals and neebs by an enormous margin. Where as u stick those players in code S or even something much weaker like IEM or WESG and they will get to a point much earlier on in the tournament where if they dont play perfect they will absolutely be getting sent home early. I dont think people would say inno and soO are the top of Kr (definitely in the top tier) but they are examples of what Im talking about. Throw in that in actuality you arent really preparing for Terrans in WCS leaves 1 less matchup to practice for...vs going into Kr and being gtd to hit a god tier terran or 2 ..its just vastly different. | ||
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StarcraftSquall
United States196 Posts
Serral, Maru, INnoVation, Classic, Dark soO, Neeb, Stats, Reynor, Trap herO, Dear, SpeCial, Scarlett, GuMiho Bunny, Zest, Elazer, Solar, sOs, TY, Patience, Rogue, Lambo, TIME Updated 2019 official map race to race win rate after Spring (GSL/WCS/IEM/WESG/HSC combined) - yes I’ve been counting whatever maps I can. Zerg 50.38% over Terran (331-326) Zerg 50.72% over Protoss (389-378) Protoss vs Terran 50.0% (279-279) 185 Terran, 395 Zerg and 320 Protoss mirrors played 👀 #WCS #GSL | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
First, one of the match he lost were against Innovation (3:4, WESG). It was just after a big patch that nerfed queens, creep spread, and hydras dps. At the same time as giving terran more openings(bcs, speed banshee,etc) and changing cyclones again. Obviously changes like that would affect someone that relies on solid play, and would need time to adjust. Lets also not forget Serral doesnt really get to practice versus Maru and Innovation level of terrans. His strongest terran oppositions on ladder are Uthermal and heromarine. And while those two are amazing, they are no Innovation or Maru. Despite all that, it was still only a 3:4 loss. Then there was the 3:4 loss against Reynor, but i think it was more Reynor playing out of his mind, and Serral getting back into the zone slowly after winning half a million dollars and having a couple months of holidays with family, and more money than he could dream of. When he got his revenge against Reynor this weekend, he really showed him who is boss. I have no doubt he can do the same versus Innovation next time. Im going to trigger some folks here, but im still going to say it. Serral IS the best player in the world, both in terms of skill level and potential. To demonstrate this level of consistency and dominance with Zerg is not something we have seen a lot in the history of Starcraft2. Only soO and Life have. Zerg is a very volatile race where there is many ways to lose games to stupid builds or little mistakes. Time will prove me right I am pretty confident. His skill level is simply insane. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7075 Posts
On May 21 2019 05:32 Starcloud wrote: Just another thread with same debate. Doesnt 99% here think that it goes this way, and we can stop it here, ok ? Below is my ranking. First is the bracket for Koreans and below it are foringers that can fit in that bracket (approx. of course). Occasionally, players can of course be higher or lower in those brackets, but general standing is something like this: Korean top 1-4 Serral Korean top 5-8 - Korean top 9-14 Neeb Korean top 15-20 Reynor Special Showtime Scarlett Easy, right ? I like this list. Showtime seems to be back in form. The 2019 Showtime before WCS Spring doesn't belong here. Other good foreigners are too unstable to be here, but maybe could qualify for a Ro32 GSL on a good day (Heromarine, Lambo, Drogo, Elazer) Edit: To the above poster: Pretty sure Serral plays regularly on KR ladder and has an account there with somewhere between 6k-7k MMR | ||
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