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On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough!
You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast.
Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
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On October 16 2018 06:57 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough! You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast. Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
it takes approx. 2.5 seconds for a corrosive bile to land after it is cast. it takes 3.5417 seconds to unsiege a tank. it takes a little extra time for the tank to accelerate and move out of range of the corrosive bile. not only do you have to see the ravagers coming it advance, you need to see the ravagers coming well in advance. and since you don't know which tank the ravagers are going to target, you would need to un-siege all your front-line tanks if you're adamant about avoiding the corrosive bile. if you un-siege all your tanks, what do you think zerg's gonna do? twiddle his thumbs? sign a peace treaty? no, he's going to A-move and kill you because your tanks are unsieged.
same story with liberators. the unsiege time for liberators is 1.46 seconds. the acceleration time is about 1 second. that means the corrosive bile will hit, even if you unsieged 0.04 seconds after the corrosive bile was cast. "zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention". 555-come-on-now.jpg I think we both know this is a big fat porky pie
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Oh no...Seems like instead "siege and forget" u need to actually baby sit your army...What a shame. Look, if Zerg doesn't do the same, and it's pretty much harder to see ghosts aproaching- puff puff and allyour Broodlords are gone. We must nerf snipe then? This is your logic.
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What is this carrier change... why make the cyclone weak again?
Maru getting Terran nerfed all by himself. Does Blizzard seem to think that every Terran can just pull a 'Maru' and get their proxy scouted and just win from behind anyway?
The proxy-meta will go away when Maru stops being so effective. It's literally one player. Is this not correct?
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On October 16 2018 13:43 hiroshOne wrote:
Oh no...Seems like instead "siege and forget" u need to actually baby sit your army...What a shame. Look, if Zerg doesn't do the same, and it's pretty much harder to see ghosts aproaching- puff puff and allyour Broodlords are gone. We must nerf snipe then? This is your logic.
this is not my logic. puff puff vs brood lords is not even in the same ballpark.
snipe cancelled by zerg spells? yes
snipe cancelled by damage? yes
corrosive bile cancelled by terran spells? no
corrosive bile cancelled by damage? no
the only way terran can avoid corrosive biles is to split the units. siege tanks can't split with 3.5417 unsiege time + acceleration time.
remember, when the ravager unit was introduced in LotV, terran could save the tank with a medivac. tankivacs have rightly been removed from the game. however, there is no new mechanic to compensate for the slowness of tank unsiege. it seems to be a complete oversight in terms of unit interactions.
cancelling an attack with spells is just one scenario... there are other counter-plays which could reward skill. for example, eating damage. imagine the mech player sent an inferior unit (like a hellion) or a massive hp unit (like a thor) to eat the ravager shot. it would be the same relationship as bio vs disruptor. you sacrifice a less important unit to save the siege unit. again, this is not possible because corrosive bile is AOE.
you are trying to embellish your argument with hyperbole, yes? who said siege and forget? not me! just seems like you are a salty zerg player afraid to admit the truth. I'm watching top players like gumiho and TY. these players certainly don't "siege and forget". in the basetradeTV cross server finals, I watched gumiho try to avoid corrosive biles while playing mech vZ. sometimes he tried to unsiege the liberator / tank and it dies anyway, or he keeps the unit sieged and hopes it will land an extra shot before dying.
I already quoted you the numbers which show that babysitting your tanks won't save them. babysitting your liberators won't save them either. you have to babysit and also guess which tank / liberator the zerg player is going to target. this is entirely dependent on luck, not skill.
I disagree on principle with the idea of unavoidable spells and inevitable unit interactions. I am not saying mech needs a buff or zerg needs a nerf. mech is very strong vZ on the live patch. but... since you attack me with hyperbole, maybe you have a stake in maintaining this low-skill, no-brain, no micro relationship between ravagers and siege units... that's fine  don't want to hurt your win-rate
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On October 16 2018 06:57 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough! You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast. Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
You're right. Terrans should unsiege their army once the Zerg attacks with Roach/Ravager. How couldn't I see this?
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So not to be a complainer about changes but I found something really cool that these changes removes. Mothership Recall synergy. Basically when you're really far ahead and just want to have some fun, fly your mothership on the edge of the map into the enemy base, recall your army right on top of the base, then to add insult to injury, when the other player makes it back to respond, massrecall back to ur nexus.
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Still no word on fixing the lock on range on cyclones.
It shouldn't take 2 weeks to fix a bug.
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On October 17 2018 02:10 Lexender wrote:
Still no word on fixing the lock on range on cyclones.
It shouldn't take 2 weeks to fix a bug.
Is the old bug back? Of what I've seen it's as it should be, but I haven't tried the balance mod myself.
On a side note, I want to remind people of ALL of the changes: https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22372713
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To be honest with all that Hydra nerfs, and especially robo buffs (easier to mass) I want to see some small Immortal nerf. I'll just explain- the main issue with Hydras was, that people say u can mass Hydra into Protoss yolo and win if they don't make fast HT. I feel same with Immortals- u just can't go wrong with massing immortals vs everything what Zerg have. They suppose to counter Roach heavy style, and I agree, but the problem is they counter everything exept things that can fly. Especially in defence with shield battery. Immortal overall is too much obvious with it's immortality. With lowering Robo cost, which make them easier to mass earlier in the game, I feel like Immortal pushes will be too strong in PvZ, and PvT too. So if u nerf Hydras, not wanting Zergs to mass them vs everything,.I feel like same aproach should be implemented woth Immortals.
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They slightly updated things: https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22564766 .
The SCV attack priority change sounds reasonable to me given that everyone knows to shift-click SCVs when they're just building barracks or CCs early on, but that it isn't always possible when it comes to bunker rushes.
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you know after thinking about it and everyone saying protoss is getting alot of nerfs, and they are dont get me wrong. I think toss overall is going to be a lot stronger on this patch. Cheeper robo is actually a really big deal for protoss since it allows alot more build variety, combined with the big nerf to cyclones that nerf Terran proxy heavily proxy robo rush is going to an insanely strong strategy and I can see the PVT match up just doing a 180 with this change where now protoss is the race that proxys evrey game because proxy robo is really strong and the thing that keep it out of the meta like powerful cylones, terran proxying a rax nearly every game and thus always being able to have a reaper in toss's base really fast are going to go away, or at least be less common. Stalker battery rushes will also be back in style because without reactor cyclone no longer has the punching power to invalidate them as a viable strategy. further since proxys are nerfed protoss can go back to the meta where they take a super early third base while going duble upgrades and teching to aoe which is going to be really strong vs terran.
Vs Zerg yeah shield battery nerf hurts as does mass recall, but tactical recall might allow for wierd pressure builds with the lower cd time. Also cheeper robo and weeker hydras will make you wayyy more stable getting to three base which is often the realy hard part for toss. burrrow changes wont be a big deal because robo is cheeper so obs are alot more accessible, further cheeper robo might mean that toss can build alot more obs and have better map vision. Sure carrier is nerfed but your ability to kill zerg before they get there went way up, also the new tempest seems like it will be alot better vs zerg because it will be alot harder to abduct them and kill them with that increased move speed.
I plan on playing alot of protoss after this patch hits. Im gona proxy robo evrey game vs terran so I get 60%+ PvT win rate and than im going to macro vs zerg and other toss.
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Barracks, Factory, Starport - Tech Lab
If a player tries to lift a structure when there is an upgrade being researched in an attached Tech Lab, the player will not be able to do so and will receive a red text error message.
Finally!
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Blizzard...if u revert Waprism pickup range nerf, I assume u will revert Queen nerf too? As u said: "we’d like for all races to feel like they have strong options out of the gate with the new patch.". So where is this "Zerg's strong option out of the gate with the new patch". Queen and creep are crutial to Zerg's early game. Nerfing it, u are killing this race for good.
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On October 24 2018 04:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +Barracks, Factory, Starport - Tech Lab
If a player tries to lift a structure when there is an upgrade being researched in an attached Tech Lab, the player will not be able to do so and will receive a red text error message. Finally!
amen
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Sad to read they reverted the WP pick up range, always have found that to be ridiculous.
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If this goes live TvP will have serious problems.
Losing proxy cyclone pressure and weaker bunker rushes.
Meanwhile Protoss got higher hitpoints carriers that are built faster, tempest that are much better at their job (no one will build BCs due to the new Tempest), stronger disruptors, stronger immortal rushes due to cheaper Robos, improved proxy Tempest rush due to faster Tempest etc.
I wonder what the Korean Terrans will say when they realize what Blizzard has done.
I guess we have to hope for an emergency patch before any major tournament starts.
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France12885 Posts
On October 24 2018 04:50 MockHamill wrote:
If this goes live TvP will have serious problems.
Losing proxy cyclone pressure and weaker bunker rushes.
Meanwhile Protoss got higher hitpoints carriers that are built faster, tempest that are much better at their job (no one will build BCs due to the new Tempest), stronger disruptors, stronger immortal rushes due to cheaper Robos, improved proxy Tempest rush due to faster Tempest etc.
I wonder what the Korean Terrans will say when they realize what Blizzard has done.
I guess we have to hope for an emergency patch before any major tournament starts.
I don’t think TvP can get worse than right now
Disruptor is nerfed isn’t it?
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On October 24 2018 05:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 04:50 MockHamill wrote:
If this goes live TvP will have serious problems.
Losing proxy cyclone pressure and weaker bunker rushes.
Meanwhile Protoss got higher hitpoints carriers that are built faster, tempest that are much better at their job (no one will build BCs due to the new Tempest), stronger disruptors, stronger immortal rushes due to cheaper Robos, improved proxy Tempest rush due to faster Tempest etc.
I wonder what the Korean Terrans will say when they realize what Blizzard has done.
I guess we have to hope for an emergency patch before any major tournament starts. I don’t think TvP can get worse than right now Disruptor is nerfed isn’t it?
I mean right now Terran is actually very strong vs toss but it all rests on the proxy meta being very unfair for toss. Bliz is taking away the proxy meta but not giving Terran any meaningful changes to ballance tvp in a meta where Terran can't proxy evrey single game to deny Protoss the type of game they are way to strong in. I think that rather than reaching a good medium where both toss and Terran are competitive with one another this patch just massively swings ballance in toss's favor after a period of being underpowered purely due to the proxy meta Maru created. I hope I'm wrong on this but that's my prediction. I think we will see a return of the 2 base tank Allin evrey game meta that we previously saw because Terran just lacks the tools to beat toss in the late game on this upcoming patch. And is lossing the proxy strats that allowed them to set Protoss so far back they struggled to ever reach that insane late game. It feels like queen range patch in wol all over agian Terran is to strong at denying late game so they nerf terran's ability to do so, but make no meaningful change to fix said late game Terran was able to deny in the past. So Terran is left in a state where they must deny late game to have a chance at wining but don't have all that many ways to do so. Yeah Terran can be a little more greedy with new cyclone but the upgrade lead and cheaper robo more than make up for that plus now tempest is waaaay stronger vs Terran. I don't see new raven new bc or new cyclone being at all competitive with what toss is getting in return. Shield battery nerf seemed like a big deal, but now that proxy is nerfed it is alot less important.
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On October 24 2018 04:21 washikie wrote:
you know after thinking about it and everyone saying protoss is getting alot of nerfs, and they are dont get me wrong. I think toss overall is going to be a lot stronger on this patch. Cheeper robo is actually a really big deal for protoss since it allows alot more build variety, combined with the big nerf to cyclones that nerf Terran proxy heavily proxy robo rush is going to an insanely strong strategy and I can see the PVT match up just doing a 180 with this change where now protoss is the race that proxys evrey game because proxy robo is really strong and the thing that keep it out of the meta like powerful cylones, terran proxying a rax nearly every game and thus always being able to have a reaper in toss's base really fast are going to go away, or at least be less common. Stalker battery rushes will also be back in style because without reactor cyclone no longer has the punching power to invalidate them as a viable strategy. further since proxys are nerfed protoss can go back to the meta where they take a super early third base while going duble upgrades and teching to aoe which is going to be really strong vs terran.
Vs Zerg yeah shield battery nerf hurts as does mass recall, but tactical recall might allow for wierd pressure builds with the lower cd time. Also cheeper robo and weeker hydras will make you wayyy more stable getting to three base which is often the realy hard part for toss. burrrow changes wont be a big deal because robo is cheeper so obs are alot more accessible, further cheeper robo might mean that toss can build alot more obs and have better map vision. Sure carrier is nerfed but your ability to kill zerg before they get there went way up, also the new tempest seems like it will be alot better vs zerg because it will be alot harder to abduct them and kill them with that increased move speed.
I plan on playing alot of protoss after this patch hits. Im gona proxy robo evrey game vs terran so I get 60%+ PvT win rate and than im going to macro vs zerg and other toss.
I dunno, a lot of these assertions are pretty premature, IMO.
For example, I don't think it's at all obvious that reactor Cyclone would be better at holding proxy immortals then tech-lab Cyclones--Immortals shit on current Cyclones as is, and the old-new Cyclone does a way better job at denying the prism and doesn't have to face-tank Immortal damage.
As for late game, Protoss got one of the two pillars (Templars) of their lategame deathball vs bio nerfed and it's still an open question on how the changes to the other one (Tempests) will play out.
Regardless, the lategame is one of the things they're going to watch closely, so if it's as bad as you say it'll be patched pretty soon. But I don't think it'll be as bad as you say.
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EPT
