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Balance Mod Update Oct 9, 2018

Forum Index > SC2 General
172 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
CynicalDeath
Profile Joined January 2012
Italy3696 Posts
October 09 2018 19:26 GMT
#1
[image loading]



We hope you had fun watching the GSL Super Tournament event—we certainly did! The matches were really exciting, and we’re that much closer to crowning a champion at the global finals at BlizzCon. That said, all this excitement hasn’t stopped us from paying attention to community feedback on the balance test map. We’re already planning to make some additional changes. Let’s dig in!

TERRAN

Cyclone unit changed to 3.8 version.
Now requires a Tech Lab to be built at the Factory.
Health decreased from 180 to 120.
Movement speed increased from 4.13 to 4.73.
Supply cost increased from 3 to 4.
Unit armor set to 1.
Tornado Blaster weapon changed to the Typhoon Missile Pod weapon:
Damage changed from 3 (+2 vs Armored) to 18.
Can target air and ground units.
Attack rate changed from 0.1 to 0.71.
Range decreased from 6 to 5.
Weapon upgrades changed from +1 to +2 to account for the new damage value.
Lock On ability changed:
Ability can auto-cast.
Can now target ground and flying units and structures.
Damage changed from 160 to 400 damage over 14 seconds.
Rapid Fire Launchers upgrade removed.
Added Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade:
After researching Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade, Lock On will deal 400 (+400 vs Armored) over 14 seconds to ground and flying targets.
When Legacy of the Void first launched, the Cyclone was quite different. Requiring a Tech Lab, sporting lower durability, and having the ability to lock onto both air and ground targets, the Cyclone acted as an assassination tool. It could pick a target and destroy it, assuming the player gave enough micro attention to keep it moving and out of harm’s way. These Cyclones were intended to pick off high tech or tanky units from other races to give Terran more early- to mid-game control, and the upgrade allowed it to scale better into late-game.

In patch 3.8, we changed the Cyclone into a front-line unit that could provide early-game firepower. While the meta has shifted back-and-forth since then, the frontline Cyclone did its job well, but there are concerns that early-game Terran strategies, especially for proxies, have become almost too varied for opponents to handle. At the same time, there is still room to give Terrans a way to trade against opponents in the mid and late game without going all-in. Additionally, just before 3.8 came out, we started seeing more innovative uses of the Cyclone in pro-level matches. For these reasons, we want to experiment with reinstating the pre-3.8 Cyclone.

Battlecruisers will no longer switch attack targets while moving unless ordered to do so or the current target leaves its range.
Previously, the Battlecruiser would continuously re-evaluate threats while moving, often switching targets. Our aim is to give more control to the player, so Battlecruisers will now consistently “remember” their targets while moving.

ZERG

Hydralisk's attack speed changed from .57 to .59.

In the last test balance update, we changed the Hydralisk’s attack speed from 0.54 to 0.57 instead of reducing its health by 5HP. We still like the direction of this change but agree with feedback that we need to go a bit further before this change approaches what a 5HP nerf would do. Thus, we’ll be reverting the Hydralisk’s attack speed back to its Heart of the Swarm value of 0.59.

PROTOSS

Dark Shrine
Shadow Stride research time reduced from 121 to 100 seconds.
Shadow Stride cooldown reduced from 21 to 14 seconds.

The prospect of “Blink” Dark Templar, when they were first introduced, was a frightening nightmare for some, but we haven’t seen them used much lately. We’d like to try adjustments to both research time and cooldown and then re-evaluate the results.

Carrier
Interceptor damage changed from 8x1 to 5x2.
Interceptors will get +1x2 per Air Attack upgrade instead of +1x1.
Interceptor release periods changed from 0.36 to 0.27.

We’ve gotten feedback that Carriers are a bit weaker than our ideal target power level. Thus, we’d like to make a few changes that will bring them closer to their previous damage output. In addition to their damage values being reverted, we’d like to decrease Interceptor release periods so they’ll launch at a rate between the pre- and post-Graviton Catapult upgrade rates.

Gateway's "Transform to Warp Gate" will now be an auto-cast ability.
Previous iterations of the automated Warp Gate change caused a bit of confusion, as some Gateways would automatically transform to Warp Gates while others wouldn’t. We’d like to re-implement this change as an auto-cast ability, which should better communicate to players what is happening and provide more control over which Gateways transform.

As always, we’d like to reiterate that these changes are not final, and we’ll be actively looking at your feedback. Some specific concerns that we are continuing to look into include:

TvZ and the strength of Mutalisks against both Bio and Mech
TvP early-game with the strength of proxies
ZvP mid-game and the openers and compositions leading up to it.
In addition, we’ll continuously be looking at late-game balance among all the races as per our initial design goals for the post-BlizzCon update. Thanks for testing out the changes, and please let us know what you think on the forums or through your preferred community sites!



See all the specific changes here:
https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22546437
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ModeratorSC2 LP Admin - My Life for Aiur - Let the Metal flow - @Cynical_Death
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary409 Posts
October 09 2018 19:38 GMT
#2
carriers keep their hp buff right?

MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-09 19:50:23
October 09 2018 19:38 GMT
#3
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
October 09 2018 19:54 GMT
#4
I still don't understand the warpgate change. Protoss is almost universally considered the least mechanically demanding race. Why does it get so many QoL changes?

The high remplar auto attack, adept shade movement, observer stationary mode, and now auto transforming warpgates (which is the most pointless one yet). I'm not sure why they think toss is the race that needs it's skill floor lowered.

SC2 pros already have a tough time distinguishing themselves. Making the game play itself doesn't help, and as far as I know no one asked for it (?).
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Riner1212
Profile Joined November 2012
United States337 Posts
October 09 2018 19:57 GMT
#5
We’ve gotten feedback that Carriers are a bit weaker than our ideal target power level. Thus, we’d like to make a few changes that will bring them closer to their previous damage output. In addition to their damage values being reverted, we’d like to decrease Interceptor release periods so they’ll launch at a rate between the pre- and post-Graviton Catapult upgrade rates.

are they trolling us?

do they have any idea how strong carriers are with HT support? I really hope blizzard reads this section of this fourms. IDK where they are getting there feedback...
Sjow "pretty ez life as protoss"
pzlama333
Profile Joined April 2013
United States282 Posts
October 09 2018 19:58 GMT
#6
On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.


Gravition catapult is still removed, and in this patch the default release speed is increased a little bit.
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary409 Posts
October 09 2018 19:58 GMT
#7
important to note that they keep the increased interceptor build time as well.
it will be 'easier' (if you have the bank and the ports) to build up a fleet,
but the first carrier will be only fully ready at about the same time as before
64+4*11=108 (new) vs 86+4*6=110 (old)

with the hp buff and removal of graviton they kinda rebalanced the unit, made it beefier, but removed some of the initial high burst damage.

they do no want to remove the unit, and they should not.

team games are still fucked, tho.
and keep on keeping on i guess

ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
October 09 2018 20:00 GMT
#8
Shadow stride buff--the change Starcraft really needed.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-09 20:05:53
October 09 2018 20:04 GMT
#9
On October 10 2018 04:58 pzlama333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.


Gravition catapult is still removed, and in this patch the default release speed is increased a little bit.


Launch speed does not matter much. The difference between GC and no GC is just 6.7%. Even less for longer battles. Now compare this with 12.5% more hit points, 33% more damage vs Thors now when Thors got their armor nerfed, and build time being 34% faster.

Carrier with HT support is almost unbeatable in the live version and they are making it even stronger.

Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55583 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-09 20:06:24
October 09 2018 20:05 GMT
#10
I like the cyclone change really. I was sad when it was completely changed just as pros started using it more and more, and making it an A-move unit with minimal anti-air was kinda bleh. It's also a big buff against people trying to build pylons and shield batteries everywhere around your base. Just Protoss proxies in general.

On the other hand I guess this means I will have to learn proper micro with and against proxy 2-rax reaper
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
575 Posts
October 09 2018 20:12 GMT
#11
Cyclone revert is huge.
pzlama333
Profile Joined April 2013
United States282 Posts
October 09 2018 20:15 GMT
#12
On October 10 2018 05:04 MockHamill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2018 04:58 pzlama333 wrote:
On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.


Gravition catapult is still removed, and in this patch the default release speed is increased a little bit.


Launch speed does not matter much. The difference between GC and no GC is just 6.7%. Even less for longer battles. Now compare this with 12.5% more hit points, 33% more damage vs Thors now when Thors got their armor nerfed, and build time being 34% faster.

Carrier with HT support is almost unbeatable in the live version and they are making it even stronger.



Without GC, interceptors are launched every 0.5 second in HotS time or 0.36 in LotV time. It takes 4 seconds (2.86 in lotv) to release all 8 interceptors.
With GC, the first 4 interceptors are launched every 0.125 second (0.09 second in lotv) and the 5-8 one are launched every 0.25 second (0.18 in lotv). The total release time is 1.5 seconds (1.07 second in lotv)
Z3nith
Profile Joined October 2017
485 Posts
October 09 2018 20:23 GMT
#13
On October 10 2018 05:15 pzlama333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2018 05:04 MockHamill wrote:
On October 10 2018 04:58 pzlama333 wrote:
On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.


Gravition catapult is still removed, and in this patch the default release speed is increased a little bit.


Launch speed does not matter much. The difference between GC and no GC is just 6.7%. Even less for longer battles. Now compare this with 12.5% more hit points, 33% more damage vs Thors now when Thors got their armor nerfed, and build time being 34% faster.

Carrier with HT support is almost unbeatable in the live version and they are making it even stronger.



Without GC, interceptors are launched every 0.5 second in HotS time or 0.36 in LotV time. It takes 4 seconds (2.86 in lotv) to release all 8 interceptors.
With GC, the first 4 interceptors are launched every 0.125 second (0.09 second in lotv) and the 5-8 one are launched every 0.25 second (0.18 in lotv). The total release time is 1.5 seconds (1.07 second in lotv)


Pretty big difference if you ask me Kev.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-09 20:32:27
October 09 2018 20:27 GMT
#14
On October 10 2018 05:15 pzlama333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2018 05:04 MockHamill wrote:
On October 10 2018 04:58 pzlama333 wrote:
On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?

I am stunned.


Gravition catapult is still removed, and in this patch the default release speed is increased a little bit.


Launch speed does not matter much. The difference between GC and no GC is just 6.7%. Even less for longer battles. Now compare this with 12.5% more hit points, 33% more damage vs Thors now when Thors got their armor nerfed, and build time being 34% faster.

Carrier with HT support is almost unbeatable in the live version and they are making it even stronger.



Without GC, interceptors are launched every 0.5 second in HotS time or 0.36 in LotV time. It takes 4 seconds (2.86 in lotv) to release all 8 interceptors.
With GC, the first 4 interceptors are launched every 0.125 second (0.09 second in lotv) and the 5-8 one are launched every 0.25 second (0.18 in lotv). The total release time is 1.5 seconds (1.07 second in lotv)


Test 3/3 Thor vs 3/3/3 Carrier with and without GC. The difference in outcome is about 6.7%. Since most major battles lasts longer then this the actual effect is even lower. Basically the slower launch rate is negligible compared to to the other improvements Carriers gets - increased hitpoints and faster build time.

If there is a single unit in the game that is too strong it is the Carrier. Their only downside is their build time. Now they are built much faster and have more hit points as well.

This is so absurd I am not even sure what to say. It seems like trolling to me, but why would Blizzard troll their own customers?
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
October 09 2018 20:27 GMT
#15
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
575 Posts
October 09 2018 20:29 GMT
#16
On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change.

Nerfing proxies is the goal.
hiroshOne
Profile Joined October 2015
Poland425 Posts
October 09 2018 20:30 GMT
#17
Someone can explain Hydra change more clearly? I'm confused as it's third change in past 3 weeks
Ultima Ratio Regum
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55583 Posts
October 09 2018 20:32 GMT
#18
On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change.

Proxy cyclones and other one base builds of that fashion were a big part of the meta the last time the cyclone was like this. People will just have to dig up build orders from 2016. Really the problem I see is that people will keep proxying because there's still little appeal to playing a "normal" TvP.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
575 Posts
October 09 2018 20:34 GMT
#19
On October 10 2018 05:32 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change.

Proxy cyclones and other one base builds of that fashion were a big part of the meta the last time the cyclone was like this. People will just have to dig up build orders from 2016. Really the problem I see is that people will keep proxying because there's still little appeal to playing a "normal" TvP.

People busted out those builds every so often but they never seemed very good.

Cyclones were a lot better at defending rather than attacking back then.
leublix
Profile Joined May 2017
493 Posts
October 09 2018 20:35 GMT
#20
The proxy meta is bullshit though so that can only be a welcoming change. Although in the wrong direction imo, the 3.8 one sucked as well, too much need and potential for micro.

The carrier change seems reasonable, some pros recommended that (before 4.0 or last years patch, don't remember). It doesn't make them stronger than the live version.
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