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On October 10 2018 05:34 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 05:32 Elentos wrote:On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change. Proxy cyclones and other one base builds of that fashion were a big part of the meta the last time the cyclone was like this. People will just have to dig up build orders from 2016. Really the problem I see is that people will keep proxying because there's still little appeal to playing a "normal" TvP. People busted out those builds every so often but they never seemed very good.
They were very strong if the Protoss didn't go robo. Prism micro shut them down quite hard. Still, there were all kinds of cheesy-ish builds going around back then, but just as it was getting interesting Blizzard patched it out. There were also a lot of straight up one base 1-1-1's.
But back then Terran had a better time in normal games vs Toss than now honestly. So for a longer series it was ok that the proxies were way more all-in than the current ones.
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On October 10 2018 05:35 leublix wrote:
The proxy meta is bullshit though so that can only be a welcoming change. Although in the wrong direction imo, the 3.8 one sucked as well, too much need and potential for micro.
The carrier change seems reasonable, some pros recommended that (before 4.0 or last years patch, don't remember). It doesn't make them stronger than the live version.
Mech needs a micro-able unit that isn't a Hellion. More micro potential is never a bad thing.
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On October 10 2018 04:38 MockHamill wrote:
So Carriers get to keep their increased hit points, their faster build rate and have their old damage back?
Are Blizzard realizing that they are making Carriers even stronger compared to the live version?
The unit that with some HT support basically dominates everything when they get their numbers up?
I am stunned.
With no Gravitron Catapult and it taking nearly twice as long to rebuild interceptors, they are still quite a bit more fragile than in the past. Without Gravitron Catapult, they can no longer burst damage down units. Now carriers will need support since it will take time for them to get to full power so mass carrier likely won't be nearly as viable. Killing interceptors will now effectively take carriers out of the game for a significant amount of time.
They had to do some kind of compromise with the carrier. In the state they were in prior to this update to the balance patch they were basically useless. Removing Gravitron Catapult in itself is a massive nerf to carriers.
I'm not shocked by the cyclone change. Something had to give. I saw a lot of Protoss streamers getting destroyed by proxy cyclone/SCV auto-repair all-ins even when blind preparing for it upon scouting a proxy was happening (or getting faked out and ending up way behind). At the same time, it looked like the cyclone was pretty useless any time past the 5 minute mark outside of niche strategies like targeting down the third with 4-6 of them.
That hydra change is starting to approach something reasonable. It's now nearly a 9% attack speed nerf instead of around 5%. Hopefully it will be enough to discourage zergs from just rushing lair and going for mass hydra timings in PvZ. That got pretty old to play against a long time ago and it's still quite common. Every game comes down to whether or not the 1-2 storms you can afford at the time the attack hits does enough damage to clean up the hydras. If the storms don't do enough damage, the game is over the extreme majority of the time. It'd be an entirely different thing if it was a mixture of units, but quite often it's literally just a bunch of hydras hitting right after protoss gets their third established.
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On October 10 2018 05:29 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change. Nerfing proxies is the goal.
Yeah I get that, I don't think the proxy meta is healthy for the game, but I don't think macro TvP is ever a good situation for Terran to be in right now, so if proxies are nerfed I'd like to see other changes to Terran that effect mid and late game tvp maybe a reduction in the cost of transitioning to ghosts or a change that makes ravens a more excesable option as a suport unit, perhaps thier cost could be reduced now that they no longer do any dmg with missle. I feel like the raven has the potential to be a pivotal tvp unit if it were not so expensive. With interference matrix and antiarmor effecting sheilds it could be like the ghost but for Terran vs robo tech, right now though you only see Terran ever get 1 or 2 if they get them at all because the starport time and the gas must go to medivacs, if Terran could more easily build them in addition to medivac out of a second starport they might see more use but the 200 gas cost and techlab requirment prity much deters this.
or something to help Terran with Protoss's upgrade lead, maybe a cheaper armory. Maybe something to make a small number of blink stalkers less effective at controlling the map.
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So, Blizzard is basically saying:
Don't let them get there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But at the same time, doesn't want to see proxies.
Pretty conflicting desu.
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maybe make liberator lab unit too but nerf queen aa range? it would fit in prism pick up range nerf and will make banshee play in tvz more appealing than now.
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These changes are going the right direction. The carrier nerf before was really silly to look at seeing all these carriers do literally no damage. This change makes carrier more of a support unit that can still deal reliable damage overtime but isn't going to be soloing down armies. Carrier launchers are still removed and interceptor build time still increased. Not sure why terrans are complaining about carrier because BC have always and still are the hard counter to carrier and BC are now getting buffed to also be good vs ground units which should give terrans a real lategame to switch to. Imagine how cool its going to be to run 3-4 bcs across a mineral line in lategame cleaning up alot of probes and then teleporting out as soon as protoss responds.
The change to cyclone is unexpected but welcome. the change removes proxy cyclone as a viable strategy which based on the notes seems to be the intention because currently when terran proxies protoss sees 1 depot and 2 gas but it could be proxy hellion drop, proxy widow mine drop, cyclone/marauder allin tank/lib/reactor marine 1/1/1 all in, reactor cyclone proxy cloak banshee cc macro play. Currently vs alot of these cyclone variations the only defense is to cut warpate and spend all chronos on stalker from 1 gate and build robo and also chrono immortal. this response is not very good vs other variations and awful if terran cc'd behind it which turns the game into blind luck whether the probe can find the spot on the map terran happened to build key buildings. Removing reactor cyclone variation allows protoss to not die if they didn't rush robo immortal.
Reverting the damage of Hydra back to HoTS is the right move. Hydralisk got an HP buff of 12% and an attack damage buff of 9% turning smaller groups of hydra into literal death balls. No other unit has been buffed so heavily. Hydra are still going to be the go to unit but maybe after this change we will see more fair trades between hydra and chargelot/archon and possibly zerg mixing in more tanky units like roaches to buy hydra enough time to clear everything because currently most units die before they are able to really do much damage to hydralisks.
I'd also like an update on some of the not so great design changes like making recall small and spammable, making tempests kite everything o.O? Also not a fan of the shield battery hp change. Something I thought of for shield battery is to reduce the shield regen rate by 25% but decrease cost of battery back to 75 minerals. This might solve the proxy robo build problem because only 1 shield battery can heal a unit at a time which decreases the amount of dps needed to damage down an immortal by 25%. Some possible problems is whether or not 1 shield battery will still outheal an oracle or a banshee and numbers can be tweaked to maintain the current 1:1 2:1 counter relationship
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RIP Terran. Ravager rushes and early Protoss pushes will be unstoppable..
The Cyclone change will break terran early game.
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Maybe sOs can win Blizzcon with carriers now.
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we'll be reverting the Hydralisk's attack speed back to its Heart of the Swarm value of 0.59
Huh? I never knew Hydras got an attack speed buff. Is this true?
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On October 10 2018 07:18 Zephyp wrote:
Maybe sOs can win Blizzcon with carriers now.
I think you mean B L I N K D T
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On October 10 2018 07:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +we'll be reverting the Hydralisk's attack speed back to its Heart of the Swarm value of 0.59 Huh? I never knew Hydras got an attack speed buff. Is this true?
They got an attack speed buff in HotS:
 Hydralisk (Heart of the Swarm)
Hydralisks got buffed in three ways--attack speed, movement speed, and HP--from WoL to LotV. They're rolling back one of those buffs.
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On October 10 2018 07:25 yht9657 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 07:18 Zephyp wrote:
Maybe sOs can win Blizzcon with carriers now. I think you mean B L I N K D T
I can see it now, an sOs Serral final. Serral the foreigner hope, the first to get to a blizzcon final and maybe, just maybe the first to win it. It's game seven, tied 3-3 and Serral is going into his signature burrowed roach play, amassing an unstoppable end game army composition. Suddenly he hears the announcer stating he is being attacked. He looks to his mineral lines and sees it being slaughtered by dts. He hastens to get an overseer and a portion of his army back to save his workers only to find the dt has blinked to another mineral line. Suddenly, he's 20 workers down and with a chargelot DT push sOs wins his 3rd Blizzcon title, crushing the foreigner dream.
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On October 10 2018 04:54 Fango wrote:
Protoss is almost universally considered the least mechanically demanding race. Why does it get so many QoL changes?
1) if this were wikipedia you'd be required to have a source for the first statement xD
2) all races should get QoL changes whenever they are deemed beneficial to player comfort. the entire concept of a QoL change is something that makes the game more playable, and playability is the ground zero goal of all games. if QoL makes toss "easier" then you can continue with more tweaks. the slippery slope goes all the way back to BW with multi building select. games should be modern, not UI wars
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4.73?
Remind me what is the on and off creep speed of speedlings
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On October 10 2018 07:47 Cricketer12 wrote:
4.73?
Remind me what is the on and off creep speed of speedlings
6.58/8.55
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On October 10 2018 05:49 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 05:29 Athenau wrote:On October 10 2018 05:27 washikie wrote:
I'm worried about tvp ballance after this cyclone change, cyclone is the backbone of the proxy meta and w nerf to it is a nerf to all proxy strats, I'm gine with that if they give Terran better tools to play a normal tvp but right now I think tvp is going to be busted if this change goes through. Terran and Protoss need further adjustment after this kind of change. Nerfing proxies is the goal. Yeah I get that, I don't think the proxy meta is healthy for the game, but I don't think macro TvP is ever a good situation for Terran to be in right now, so if proxies are nerfed I'd like to see other changes to Terran that effect mid and late game tvp maybe a reduction in the cost of transitioning to ghosts or a change that makes ravens a more excesable option as a suport unit, perhaps thier cost could be reduced now that they no longer do any dmg with missle, the I feel like the raven has the potential to be a pivotal tvp unit if it were not so expensive, or something to help Terran with Protoss's upgrade lead, maybe a cheaper armory. Maybe something to make a small number of blink stalkers less effective at controlling the map.
I'm actually pretty optimistic for macro TvP after all these changes hit the ladder.
Just compare both terran and protoss units to a time where TvP wasn't a complete shit show. pre 4.0 was pretty decent i think.
Marauder - straight up better
Widow Mine - not clocked from the start but produces faster
Ghost - change in cost, they are easier to afford
Viking - +10hp
Raven - imo Interference Matrix and Anti-Armor Missile are better than PDD and seeker in TvP
(Battlecruiser - we don't know yet if he will have a good position in the game)
Stalker - straight up better
Sentry - bigger guardian shield
Disruptor - same as pre 4.0 but I want to point out that this change is huge for TvP, the best change in this patch!
Colossus - a lot better vs marines but a lot worse against Marauders
high Templar - feedback nerf
Tempest - probably better than pre 4.0 but we have to see how this plays out
Overall I think terran can be very happy with these changes.
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On October 10 2018 07:14 Charoisaur wrote:
RIP Terran. Ravager rushes and early Protoss pushes will be unstoppable..
The Cyclone change will break terran early game.
You think so? I don't recall that early protoss and zerg pushes were broken pre 3.8.
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On October 10 2018 04:54 Fango wrote:
I still don't understand the warpgate change. Protoss is almost universally considered the least mechanically demanding race. Why does it get so many QoL changes?
The high remplar auto attack, adept shade movement, observer stationary mode, and now auto transforming warpgates (which is the most pointless one yet). I'm not sure why they think toss is the race that needs it's skill floor lowered.
SC2 pros already have a tough time distinguishing themselves. Making the game play itself doesn't help, and as far as I know no one asked for it (?).
You know that people who aren't pros play this game, and are just as if not arguably more important to Blizzard right? This is the kind of thing noone at Diamond 1 or higher would care about either way (i don't care that protoss gets this QoL improvement, it doesn't really make their race easier to play or harder for me to face), but makes the game greatly less frustrating for the casual player base. If you suggest good QoL improvements for other races that don't overpower them (no auto-creep spread or auto-muling) I'm sure Blizz will consider it. In fact the reason they reverted chrono boost was because it was too much of a QoL improvement.
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EPT
