|
Poland425 Posts
So let me get this straight about PvZ...
Protoss gets buffed disruptors (reverted version is crazy good against Zerg), buffed Collosus, lowered cost of robo (now it will be easier to mass immortals) and Zerg gets nerfed hydras to discourage them to make mass hydra timing?
Someone forgot, that Zergs were doing this timing because nothing else worked vs Protoss? So what we get to equal this nerf in PvZ context? I know that in ZvT mutas will be viable again (maybe). But what about PvZ?
Sounds like AGAIN Blizzard is reverting game to classic paper-rock-scizzors. Zerg will wreck Terran, Protoss will wreck Zerg, and Terran will wreck Protoss...Ehh...
|
On October 10 2018 12:09 Athenau wrote:Wat? Lock-on cyclones are way better vs voidrays and oracles. Live cyclone AA is garbage.
The current response to proxy voidray is cyclone into reactor into swap to starport for double viking production.
You can't fit a tech lab in there.
|
Since all of the recently released patch notes read like an entire comedy sketch, i'm going to just do it myself and list a bunch of changes that would make SC2 more of a healthy game for not only professional level of play (i'm talking for the entire WORLD rather than balancing the game for 10 S.Korean players in the closed off GSL tournament).
Here we go, if you agree, want any of these implemented, and find the patch suggestions that blizzard release basically to continuously be a joke, then feel free to comment. It's clear they have been out of touch with the SC2 scene for years now.
AVILO'S SET OF HEALTHY GAME BALANCE/DESIGN CHANGES FOR SC2:
Terran:
Thor hyperballistic missile upgrade added into the game, requires fusioncore/armory to research. Increases thor javelin missile splash damage radius by .25 and changes the thor javelin missile damage to flat damage, also giving it bonus damage to capital air units (carriers, tempests, broodlords).
Allows for a lategame reponse to mass air, as well as dissuading mass air gameplay.
Cyclone - sure, revert it to the time that it previously didn't suck, but decrease supply to 2, reactor-able, and re-focus it's design usage on countering mass air units (make it similar to SC1 goliath). In LOTV beta, you could go tank/cyclone similar to tank goliath because the anti-air lock on automatically targetted interceptors and was very strong, had longer range, etc. Return the game to a state similar to this.
Nuke cost changed to 50/50 - simple change, exactly same as nydus worm cost changes. Allow nukes to be more viable. If it's ok to buff Zerg's equivalent, Terran deserves the same love for all levels of play.
Vikings build-able from the factory, come out in ground mode, transformable after transformation servos upgrade is researched - sadly the counter to mass air is already in the game, myself and "darkblizzard" a map modder designed a balance mod with this exact type of change on it, ran a tournament, and proved that vikings from factories helped mech to counter mass air by ease of accessibility of vikings, and allow mass factories to be built, rather than requiring more gas investment in starports.
BCS - DO NOT BUFF THEM. Mass air needs to be weakened, not made more powerful.
Liberators - liberator range is removed from the game, mass air is too powerful in all forms in SC2, tone it down.
Protoss:
Shield battery can either be removed from the game, or needs a severe nerf it's UNHEALTHY for SC2, too abuse-able in proxy play, which is where it's seen in 99% of games on the ladder. Blizzard is out of touch with how ridiculous this building is, it needs a severe nerf to it's healing, or a smaller max energy, something.
Carrier - all of the nerfs they planned PLUS interceptor cost REVERTED back to 25 minerals. This now allows a player to fight carriers the old fashioned way, by killing the interceptors which gives carriers back their severe weakness. Currently with 15 mineral interceptors there are situations where a Protoss player is able to save 1000's of minerals due to the cheaper cost. Revert interceptor cost back to 25 minerals is a huge deal.
Nexus recall - removed from the game. This is a get out of jail free card for bad positioning, over extending. It does not belong in SC2.
Tempests - do not buff them any further, mass air in all forms, for all races should be dissuaded. It is unhealthy for SC2.
Zealot charge price reverted to 200/200.
3 nexus TvP build must be addressed - LOTV changed income and build timings making PvT broken in Protosses favor. Either the nexus needs to cost 450 or perhaps chronoboost needs to be toned down, because there's currently an economical imbalance in PvT.
Warp prism range REVERTED to original pick up values. This does not belong in the game, it never did. It makes for a one sided situation where the Zerg/Terran has no counter play to a unit being instantly picked up from 5-6 range away. Revert it back to HOTS values.
Warp prism is given a gas cost of 50 gas. Cost now 200 minerals 150 gas. Another nerf to one of the currently most OP units in the game. Right now warp prisms are thrown away almost for free, as well as are too strong simply existing on the map, threatening mass counter attacks into bases. Giving it a gas cost means it now matters if you lose one.
Adept shade is no longer cancellable. This unit is another problem unit with very little to no counter play by the defender. Now the drawback is returned to it that if you shade in, you are committing to it and the opponent can have a valid defensive response.
Zerg:
Swarmhosts locusts no longer fly.
Swarmhosts changed to light armor tag (now killable by hellions).
Swarmhost price increased to 200/200 minerals (now limiting them to their true design purpose - build a "few" to harrass).
Swarmhosts do not belong in SC2. This unit + David Kim's negligence as a developer alone are partly how LoL became such a huge esport. This unit was one of the "SC2 killers." To this day there are people on the LoL subreddit, SC2 subreddit, forums, and elsewhere that will anecdotally joke about why they quit SC2 and how the game was at one point mass swarmhosts "those things that just made infinite units" along with broodlord infestor.
This unit has been broken for the last 1.5 yrs of LOTV. Myself, and every other mech player that didn't quit the game completely yet have been flaming and raging and pleading for this absolutely batshit broken unit to be addressed. With STILL zero response from blizzard. Either at this point they simply do not give a fuck, or they are purposely leaving it in it's current broken state to dissuade people from playing mech. That is unhealthy for SC2, and negligent on the developers parts.
I'm not going to even list any other Zerg changes here because at this point most people know the problems with mass queen, the previous hydra/bane buffs, etc. but the #1 most broken thing that needs to be fixed is the swarmhost.
Zerg is probably the most well designed race in general because you can do anything and it'll work if you execute it well. Although, that may be because the race at it's core has received so many buffs over the last few years that Zerg is pretty op in general. Corruptor piss on buildings, corruptor speed buff, lurker upgrade in the game, adrenal, list goes on, there have been COUNTLESS Zerg buffs introduced to every single unit in the game except the drone, so it's no wonder Zerg is the dominant race in pro play (except GSL that was largely Terran since SC2's inception).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To sum up:
Blizzard's patch notes say NOTHING about Swarmhosts. LET'S TALK ABOUT IT. Let's discuss it here on the forums, probably one of the last places that gives a fuck about SC2. Let's talk about swarmhosts. Get it on the developers radar. IT should have already been on their radar over a year ago, which leads me to believe they simply are purposely ignoring it or do not give a fuck.
Talk about swarmhosts, why is it not mentioned at all in these new patch notes? Let's get it fixed, and addressed.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
"few to harass" while they can be killed by massable fast MINERAL ONLY land unit(uh...) and they cannot effectively harass because you took away the flying locusts? Are you reading what you write or your Terran bias makes you blind?
|
On October 10 2018 16:20 deacon.frost wrote:
"few to harass" while they can be killed by massable fast MINERAL ONLY land unit(uh...) and they cannot effectively harass because you took away the flying locusts? Are you reading what you write or your Terran bias makes you blind?
The unit does not belong in competitive play, let alone ladder play in any form. I've played both Zerg/Terran from both sides of the match-up, beaten many mech players not even building a single swarmhost.
They are un-necessary and actively harm the health of the game whenever they are viable in any way. They need multiple nerfs/fixes so that they're not a part of the meta because their only purpose in this game is to make mech play not viable.
They also break the fundamental rules of the game by creating free armies repeatedly that would normally cost resources. If anything, they should flat out be removed from the game, they serve no purpose in SC2 other than making players miserable and limiting strategic diversity, as well as forcing slow gameplay.
|
On October 10 2018 15:10 hiroshOne wrote:
So let me get this straight about PvZ...
Protoss gets buffed disruptors (reverted version is crazy good against Zerg), buffed Collosus, lowered cost of robo (now it will be easier to mass immortals) and Zerg gets nerfed hydras to discourage them to make mass hydra timing?
Someone forgot, that Zergs were doing this timing because nothing else worked vs Protoss? So what we get to equal this nerf in PvZ context? I know that in ZvT mutas will be viable again (maybe). But what about PvZ?
Sounds like AGAIN Blizzard is reverting game to classic paper-rock-scizzors. Zerg will wreck Terran, Protoss will wreck Zerg, and Terran will wreck Protoss...Ehh...
Disruptor isn't getting buffed its getting reverted. Blizzard intended to change the disruptor to be more reliable but less game changing, but they didn't intend for it to disappear vs zerg because it blew up vs a 25 mineral zergling. The revert means that the disruptor has a longer cool down and you can either split your units, run back, or target fire the disruptor before the timer pops. The disruptor was never changed because it was OP and stats never showed it being OP and it was a style used in conjunction with blink stalker, which have since been nerfed so even with reverted disruptor it prolly still won't be used vs zerg.
The colossus buff turret tracking doesnt increase the dps except for when its running away which probably means protoss lost already, secondly the colossus doesn't really exist in PvZ except for surprise all ins because its not very good vs non light units like roaches, sets zerg up to get cost effective corruptors that can later be morphed into broodlords, and if zerg doesn't wish to do either of those things, colossus can also be countered by lurkers or vipers. Robo buff hardly matters 50 minerals won't change outcome almost ever and protoss don't really care either way which way the change goes
The hydra isn't getting trash tiered or removed from the game and you can still do timings hydra are still going to dunk on gateway units and archons, they will just dunk on them slightly less giving protoss units a few more hits on the hydra before they die. Currently Muta's have a specific place in PvZ where if you get slightly ahead you can close out the game spawning 7-9 mutas, but aren't good if they are fast teched to and protoss sees it coming and has the ability to respond. tbh its a good place to be in because making ling/muta a viable playstyle just reverts to baserace and or/turtle play which is kinda boring and has been going on since the game started.
What is zerg getting in this patch for PvZ? Carrier is losing DPS, Feedback is getting nerfed pretty hard to where it won't be able to kill anything even if it has full energy so lategame Zerg is pretty buffed allowing feedbacked vipers and queens to micro back and get transfused. Shield battery is losing 50 shields and 50 hit points or 25% of its durability. Recall is getting pretty largely nerfed which will reduce protoss mobility in lategame and nerf protoss baserace chances. It sucks when your race gets nerfed especially when its a strategy you like to use, but by pretty much every metric we have from ladder representation, aligulac player performance, aligulac winrates etc, measuring how balanced the game is PvZ has been pretty zerg favored for two years now so its not so surprising that the balance team is going to look into adjusting the stats of units that seem to be overperforming and skewing the results.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 10 2018 16:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 16:20 deacon.frost wrote:
"few to harass" while they can be killed by massable fast MINERAL ONLY land unit(uh...) and they cannot effectively harass because you took away the flying locusts? Are you reading what you write or your Terran bias makes you blind? The unit does not belong in competitive play, let alone ladder play in any form. I've played both Zerg/Terran from both sides of the match-up, beaten many mech players not even building a single swarmhost. They are un-necessary and actively harm the health of the game whenever they are viable in any way. They need multiple nerfs/fixes so that they're not a part of the meta because their only purpose in this game is to make mech play not viable. They also break the fundamental rules of the game by creating free armies repeatedly that would normally cost resources. If anything, they should flat out be removed from the game, they serve no purpose in SC2 other than making players miserable and limiting strategic diversity, as well as forcing slow gameplay.
Then grow balls and say you want to remove them and don't say anything else. This "balancing" them into unusable state is just a poor hypocrisy. They are necessary to fight turtling mech players. If you want to remove them(and I wouldn't really mind) we need to address that(and while this doesn't work on the top level - everything works on lower levels).
SO, unless you wanna weaken the turtling capabilities of mech... 
|
Looks like he wants to remove protoss in general..
Come on, I don't understand why Blizzard even posts these updates here (maybe they are just reported from somewhere else) when every time you have the same 3 posters who advocate for mass turtle mech and over nerfing everything else (no matter what is the content of the balance update)
Avilo's post is just not serious, and everyone knows it, but for some reason it gets taken into discussion watering down every attempt at discussing the actual changes
|
Poland425 Posts
Old disruptor trashed Hydras and Roaches. It's not bio in stim u know? Splitting doesn't work here the same way. It's not as effective. On the old dusruptors we saw very often hiw Zerg could not ever engage Protoss with 4 or more disruptors. Not without Vipers, which are wrecked by HT feedback anyway. Just go watch some vods from LOTV beginning.
|
On October 10 2018 17:18 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 16:33 avilo wrote:On October 10 2018 16:20 deacon.frost wrote:
"few to harass" while they can be killed by massable fast MINERAL ONLY land unit(uh...) and they cannot effectively harass because you took away the flying locusts? Are you reading what you write or your Terran bias makes you blind? The unit does not belong in competitive play, let alone ladder play in any form. I've played both Zerg/Terran from both sides of the match-up, beaten many mech players not even building a single swarmhost. They are un-necessary and actively harm the health of the game whenever they are viable in any way. They need multiple nerfs/fixes so that they're not a part of the meta because their only purpose in this game is to make mech play not viable. They also break the fundamental rules of the game by creating free armies repeatedly that would normally cost resources. If anything, they should flat out be removed from the game, they serve no purpose in SC2 other than making players miserable and limiting strategic diversity, as well as forcing slow gameplay. Then grow balls and say you want to remove them and don't say anything else. This "balancing" them into unusable state is just a poor hypocrisy. They are necessary to fight turtling mech players. If you want to remove them(and I wouldn't really mind) we need to address that(and while this doesn't work on the top level - everything works on lower levels). SO, unless you wanna weaken the turtling capabilities of mech...
Except they're not necessary to fight turtling mech? I've proven that as many other players have. When i ZvT i almost never use swarmhosts and still crush "meching Terrans." Maybe it's your lack of game knowledge about Zerg or how to fight versus mech?
I mean, considering i've played mech since SC2 released, maybe i just have a better understanding than the average player on "how to beat mech with zerg."
Mech is easily beatable with just nydus worms, drops, or just flat out making 5-10 vipers every single game. You personally unable to beat mech is an entirely seperate problem for the issue that swarmhosts are an absolutely broken unit by design.
Swarmhosts are definitely "beatable" but the fact you can amass an army of 40 swarmhosts is very unhealthy for the game, and obviously broken. Trying to defend a broken unit is probably not a good sign of being unbiased.
As a matter of fact, the last times i personally played Zerg vs mech i didn't even use vipers - i amassed pure ling lurker armies with hydra remaxes and was able to crush 200/200 mech armies without even using blinding cloud or abduct.
Your arguments don't address the fact that swarmhosts are fundamentally broken and overpowered specifically only versus mech play. They literally only exist in the game to be a cancer to people that want to play mech instead of bio. They need a removal/severe nerfs and there is STILL no word from blizzard even in this most recent update, despite the fact there's been 3 updates now with NOTHING about them.
It's time people start talking about swarmhosts and get blizzard to openly fix them or openly state they don't care or that they are going to leave them as is.
|
On October 10 2018 17:38 VHbb wrote:
Looks like he wants to remove protoss in general..
Come on, I don't understand why Blizzard even posts these updates here (maybe they are just reported from somewhere else) when every time you have the same 3 posters who advocate for mass turtle mech and over nerfing everything else (no matter what is the content of the balance update)
Avilo's post is just not serious, and everyone knows it, but for some reason it gets taken into discussion watering down every attempt at discussing the actual changes
My post is entirely serious, there has been an economic imbalance of 3 nexus vs both Z/T for a long time now, and it was only exacerbated with the introduction of shield batteries.
Protoss as a race has the most cost efficient units, and traditionally was not supposed to be able to get 3 bases at the same time or before Terran/Zerg.
Currently look at the amount of masters, GM, and pro+ games where Protoss has 3 bases fully saturated at the same time as the Zerg player or in PvT's case....they have 3 base full saturation while the Terran third orbital is quite literally just flying over to the third location.
Things like warp prism pick up range put the micro only in the hands of the Protoss with no counter-play from the Z/T. It doesn't matter if winrates are 99-0 against Protoss, if a mechanic is broken, or absurd, it should be addressed, and then balance can be tweaked after core design things are addressed.
Protoss design as a whole right now is quite terrible. The race is literally designed around "bullshitting" your opponent. Until those things are addressed, nothing else can really be "balanced" with the race.
You think i want to "nerf Protoss" when it's clear the race has fundamental design issues. Carriers are not supposed to counter every single unit in the game when you build 10 of them with 5 high templar. The amount of all-ins proxy play that Protoss arguably has to rely on to play at a high level is also quite bad.
As are things like cannon/shield battery rushes that, by the way, helped push players like snute into retirement. I say this is an aside, but i'm quite literally angry for players like snute. A pro i respected that played good late game macro games, literally gets owned by rejects in tournaments off 1 base that build 10 shield batteries outside his base.
Do you understand how frustrating that is to lose to things that basically require zero skill or practice to do? Things like that absolutely turn off people from playing the game, and when they affect the most hardcore to the point even they hate playing it...that's when it's an issue and justifiably needs fixes. (and no i'm not speaking for snute here, i'm speaking in general, and for myself. Tho...a ton of the most hardcore SC2 people/streamers absolutely hate playing the game in it's current form and have been fed up with it for a long time, but refuse to speak up about it for their own respective reasons).
Unless you're defending things like mass shield battery proxy games vs Zerg and Terran? Are people of the mindset these are helping out SC2 retain players in any way?
Do not look at the small picture. Look at the big picture. Things of this nature should be addressed and patched out of the game because they're simply shit game mechanics.
|
Avilo is at least right on mass air. Since BL/infestors, mass air in SC2 is terrible. Probably due to stackable (zero collision) air units, plus SC2 maps relying exclusively on cliffs, but each time mass air is viable in any MU it's a real cancer to the opponent. Hey you could have half the economy of opponent, and spend half on it on static defenses, it's still fine you have the best army every that can a-move to victory (and, yeah, recall, because why not LOL ?)
TvP macro issues come from openings, the cheap protoss chronoboosted upgrades, and recall.
Terrans trying to legit macro with viable early builds finds sometimes themsleves 1/1 vs 3/3. It's not even they have more hight-tech units (some ghost or range libs vs some aoe damage) or propulation.
Recall is way to strong vs drops, it punish them hard. Will see with the new recall. But at least the recalled army should not quasi instantly one-shoot everything, opponent should have more time to react.
|
Avilo, you do realize that every single one of your changes is a buff to terran or a nerf to either zerg or protoss. That should clue you in to how biased it is no matter how much you believe it. Not everything that you die to "doesn't belong in the game".
|
I would be better if Blizzard just reverted all the changes to the live version. They are trying too many things and are creating more problems than they solve.
The only thing that really needs to be changed is
Carrier/HT combo
Swarm Hosts against mech.
The first you could solve by reducing the interceptors from 8 to 6 but give them graviton catapult for free.
The second you could solve by a price increase or making Swarm Hosts light so that hellions could chase them down.
Just change was needs to be changed and leave the rest of the game as it is. There is no reason to change 100 things at once and hope for the best.
|
On October 10 2018 15:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 12:09 Athenau wrote:proxy voidrays, oracles Wat? Lock-on cyclones are way better vs voidrays and oracles. Live cyclone AA is garbage. The current response to proxy voidray is cyclone into reactor into swap to starport for double viking production. You can't fit a tech lab in there.
You don't need Vikings to shut down Voidrays with the pre 3.8 Cyclones. You get Vikings now because live Cyclone anti-air is SO bad.
Old lock-on with mag-field does 5(!) times the damage of the current lock-on.
|
On October 10 2018 18:13 ZackAttack wrote:
Avilo, you do realize that every single one of your changes is a buff to terran or a nerf to either zerg or protoss. That should clue you in to how biased it is no matter how much you believe it. Not everything that you die to "doesn't belong in the game".
Don't know why are you wasting your time with him, pretty much most of the pros consider Avilo to be a clown and just laugh at his suggestions. Not even mentioning that his level of play and the level at which actual pros are playing are miles apart.
On a more serious note, Blizzard have no clue what to do with Cyclone, this unit has been reworked bunch of times already and it never found a stable place except for a few every specific situations. I doubt that is going to change this time.
|
I've been shilling for lock-on ever since they were replaced with tornado blasters. today I am a very happy man. GOOD JOB BLIZZ
|
On October 10 2018 07:14 Charoisaur wrote:
RIP Terran. Ravager rushes and early Protoss pushes will be unstoppable..
The Cyclone change will break terran early game.
complete and utter nonsense. ravager rushes were easier to stop with lock-on... warp prisms got BTFO by lock-on. oracles got BTFO by lock-on. the oracle (or was it stargate?) build time has been adjusted to compensate for the techlab build time
|
On October 10 2018 15:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 12:09 Athenau wrote:proxy voidrays, oracles Wat? Lock-on cyclones are way better vs voidrays and oracles. Live cyclone AA is garbage. The current response to proxy voidray is cyclone into reactor into swap to starport for double viking production. You can't fit a tech lab in there.
no it isn't. the meta at the top level of korean play is to make 2 starports without add-ons so the game doesn't immediately end when the reactor is sniped. see: keen vs hero
also, nobody at the top level of korean play builds a tornado blaster cyclone vs proxy void ray. the current response is to cancel your natural CC, pump widow mines, build a tank, pump x 2 vikings from 2 starports, pump x 2 marines. if toss builds loads of shield batteries in your natural, you simply fly all your vikings across the map, force a recall of his void rays, then walk down the ramp with 1 tank, mines and marines and kill all his shield batteries.
|
Yet an other update showing they don't really know what to do with the cyclone. Sad!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
