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On October 12 2018 14:30 MockHamill wrote:
Live Carriers are very strong. They can be countered in low numbers but are almost impossible to counter in higher numbers or with HT support.
Carriers on the test map are produced faster but interceptors slower. The interceptor production rate does not mean much because the faster produced Carriers can build the interceptors on route to the enemy base.
The hitpoint increase is 12.5% while the slower interceptor release rate only effect the first 2 seconds of a battle. For the rest of the battle all interceptors are out. So the battle effect of slower released interceptors will only be a few percent, but the increased hitpoint effect is 12.5% (plus there will be more Carriers, since they are produced faster).
So basically Blizzard managed to make an already very strong unit even stronger, and not only that, they managed to so while Protoss player still think that the Carrier got nerfed.
I tested the new carrier, The new carrier is stronger in some respects and weaker in others, but is overall easier to play against. The best way to counter the old carrier was to snipe the carriers which took micro and unit control and once the carrier died its interceptors also died with it. Doing the same technique on the new carrier is actually worse because the new carrier is 50 hp more tanky and it doesn't take advantage of the interceptor build time nerf. The best way to deal with carriers now is to actually just attack move. Carriers without interceptors do 0 damage and its pretty easy to kill all the interceptors with stim marines or hydra. On the flip side, the reduced build time of the carrier make it a more reliable tech which will decrease the number of times protoss die just before they get carriers out. Is this a good change? Hard to say, carriers will be easier to counter because most people are good at attack moving. I definitely wouldn't make my army 18 carriers and 7 high templar with the new carrier because the damage is more unreliable, if all the interceptors die there goes all my dps. At the same time, I probably wouldn't max out 200 supply on immortal/archon/ht either because the build time of carriers is alot more accessible making it less risky to tech to
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On October 14 2018 17:41 Near_sc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2018 14:30 MockHamill wrote:
Live Carriers are very strong. They can be countered in low numbers but are almost impossible to counter in higher numbers or with HT support.
Carriers on the test map are produced faster but interceptors slower. The interceptor production rate does not mean much because the faster produced Carriers can build the interceptors on route to the enemy base.
The hitpoint increase is 12.5% while the slower interceptor release rate only effect the first 2 seconds of a battle. For the rest of the battle all interceptors are out. So the battle effect of slower released interceptors will only be a few percent, but the increased hitpoint effect is 12.5% (plus there will be more Carriers, since they are produced faster).
So basically Blizzard managed to make an already very strong unit even stronger, and not only that, they managed to so while Protoss player still think that the Carrier got nerfed. I tested the new carrier, The new carrier is stronger in some respects and weaker in others, but is overall easier to play against. The best way to counter the old carrier was to snipe the carriers which took micro and unit control and once the carrier died its interceptors also died with it. Doing the same technique on the new carrier is actually worse because the new carrier is 50 hp more tanky and it doesn't take advantage of the interceptor build time nerf. The best way to deal with carriers now is to actually just attack move. Carriers without interceptors do 0 damage and its pretty easy to kill all the interceptors with stim marines or hydra. On the flip side, the reduced build time of the carrier make it a more reliable tech which will decrease the number of times protoss die just before they get carriers out. Is this a good change? Hard to say, carriers will be easier to counter because most people are good at attack moving. I definitely wouldn't make my army 18 carriers and 7 high templar with the new carrier because the damage is more unreliable, if all the interceptors die there goes all my dps. At the same time, I probably wouldn't max out 200 supply on immortal/archon/ht either because the build time of carriers is alot more accessible making it less risky to tech to
If this is how things work out, and they are easier to get but also easier to fight then that is perfect. It reduces the annoying part of both sides of the fight (dying during the transition/being dead if the opponent gets too many). I am generally for changes that soften the edges of match ups so that there is less, "If this works you die, if it doesnt I die" things in the game.
On a side note, I hope they take the same view of brood lords because that is a unit based off the, "kill him while they are building" dynamic.
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anyone around 5-6k mmr wanna try to the balance mod with me?
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I think the current live cyclone is fine and doesn't need any changes unless the TvP proxy meta continues to dominate next year.
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On October 14 2018 20:15 SHODAN wrote:
anyone around 5-6k mmr wanna try to the balance mod with me?
TL is probably not the best place to find training partners. Do you have Discord? PiGs and Beastyqts Discord servers are great places to find training partners.
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On October 14 2018 21:24 MrWayne wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2018 20:15 SHODAN wrote:
anyone around 5-6k mmr wanna try to the balance mod with me? TL is probably not the best place to find training partners. Do you have Discord? PiGs and Beastyqts Discord servers are great places to find training partners.
ok cool, thanks for the tip!
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there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough!
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Have anyone tested a window mine plus viking combo against Carriers?
I used it successfully back when interceptors were 25 minerals but then interceptors become dirt cheap so i stopped using it.
Now with interceptors taking more time to rebuild maybe blowing up some of the interceptors first and then focus down the carriers can work again. Then again, I am not sure if it worth it to sacrifice 10 window mines (20 supply, 1000 resources) to blow up a bunch of 15 mineral units. I guess it depends on how many Carriers you manage to focus down before he teleports home.
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What if we bring back the old Raven from 3.8. with Build Point Defense Drone and old Seeker Missile but with supply cost = 4. I think it's time to. And to end with Cyclone let's replace it with Goliath.
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lmfao Carriers got nerfed, noobs cried and they are already taking it back
We miss you already Mike!
User was warned for this post.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 15 2018 17:14 MockHamill wrote:
Have anyone tested a window mine plus viking combo against Carriers?
I used it successfully back when interceptors were 25 minerals but then interceptors become dirt cheap so i stopped using it.
Now with interceptors taking more time to rebuild maybe blowing up some of the interceptors first and then focus down the carriers can work again. Then again, I am not sure if it worth it to sacrifice 10 window mines (20 supply, 1000 resources) to blow up a bunch of 15 mineral units. I guess it depends on how many Carriers you manage to focus down before he teleports home.
Have you tried during your tests liberators? If so - how are they?
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On October 15 2018 19:34 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 17:14 MockHamill wrote:
Have anyone tested a window mine plus viking combo against Carriers?
I used it successfully back when interceptors were 25 minerals but then interceptors become dirt cheap so i stopped using it.
Now with interceptors taking more time to rebuild maybe blowing up some of the interceptors first and then focus down the carriers can work again. Then again, I am not sure if it worth it to sacrifice 10 window mines (20 supply, 1000 resources) to blow up a bunch of 15 mineral units. I guess it depends on how many Carriers you manage to focus down before he teleports home. Have you tried during your tests liberators? If so - how are they?
I have only tried thors and vikings so far, thors seems weaker compared to live and vikings about the same. Neither seem to counter carriers.
Problems is that no unit test map is avaiable, it is very hard to know for sure just based on your in-game experience.
I think it should be obligatory for Blizzard to realase a unit test map with every major test patch so that we can test changes both in game and in a unit vs unit test map where you can check the effect of number of units, uppgrades, compositions etc.
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On October 15 2018 20:27 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 19:34 deacon.frost wrote:On October 15 2018 17:14 MockHamill wrote:
Have anyone tested a window mine plus viking combo against Carriers?
I used it successfully back when interceptors were 25 minerals but then interceptors become dirt cheap so i stopped using it.
Now with interceptors taking more time to rebuild maybe blowing up some of the interceptors first and then focus down the carriers can work again. Then again, I am not sure if it worth it to sacrifice 10 window mines (20 supply, 1000 resources) to blow up a bunch of 15 mineral units. I guess it depends on how many Carriers you manage to focus down before he teleports home. Have you tried during your tests liberators? If so - how are they? I have only tried thors and vikings so far, thors seems weaker compared to live and vikings about the same. Neither seem to counter carriers. Problems is that no unit test map is avaiable, it is very hard to know for sure just based on your in-game experience. I think it should be obligatory for Blizzard to realase a unit test map with every major test patch so that we can test changes both in game and in a unit vs unit test map where you can check the effect of number of units, uppgrades, compositions etc.
Yes for sure, some micro maps with the new units is the perfect way to test units. Why don t do this....
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On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough!
You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast.
Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
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On October 16 2018 06:57 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough! You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast. Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
it takes approx. 2.5 seconds for a corrosive bile to land after it is cast. it takes 3.5417 seconds to unsiege a tank. it takes a little extra time for the tank to accelerate and move out of range of the corrosive bile. not only do you have to see the ravagers coming it advance, you need to see the ravagers coming well in advance. and since you don't know which tank the ravagers are going to target, you would need to un-siege all your front-line tanks if you're adamant about avoiding the corrosive bile. if you un-siege all your tanks, what do you think zerg's gonna do? twiddle his thumbs? sign a peace treaty? no, he's going to A-move and kill you because your tanks are unsieged.
same story with liberators. the unsiege time for liberators is 1.46 seconds. the acceleration time is about 1 second. that means the corrosive bile will hit, even if you unsieged 0.04 seconds after the corrosive bile was cast. "zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention". 555-come-on-now.jpg I think we both know this is a big fat porky pie
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Oh no...Seems like instead "siege and forget" u need to actually baby sit your army...What a shame. Look, if Zerg doesn't do the same, and it's pretty much harder to see ghosts aproaching- puff puff and allyour Broodlords are gone. We must nerf snipe then? This is your logic.
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What is this carrier change... why make the cyclone weak again?
Maru getting Terran nerfed all by himself. Does Blizzard seem to think that every Terran can just pull a 'Maru' and get their proxy scouted and just win from behind anyway?
The proxy-meta will go away when Maru stops being so effective. It's literally one player. Is this not correct?
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On October 16 2018 13:43 hiroshOne wrote:
Oh no...Seems like instead "siege and forget" u need to actually baby sit your army...What a shame. Look, if Zerg doesn't do the same, and it's pretty much harder to see ghosts aproaching- puff puff and allyour Broodlords are gone. We must nerf snipe then? This is your logic.
this is not my logic. puff puff vs brood lords is not even in the same ballpark.
snipe cancelled by zerg spells? yes
snipe cancelled by damage? yes
corrosive bile cancelled by terran spells? no
corrosive bile cancelled by damage? no
the only way terran can avoid corrosive biles is to split the units. siege tanks can't split with 3.5417 unsiege time + acceleration time.
remember, when the ravager unit was introduced in LotV, terran could save the tank with a medivac. tankivacs have rightly been removed from the game. however, there is no new mechanic to compensate for the slowness of tank unsiege. it seems to be a complete oversight in terms of unit interactions.
cancelling an attack with spells is just one scenario... there are other counter-plays which could reward skill. for example, eating damage. imagine the mech player sent an inferior unit (like a hellion) or a massive hp unit (like a thor) to eat the ravager shot. it would be the same relationship as bio vs disruptor. you sacrifice a less important unit to save the siege unit. again, this is not possible because corrosive bile is AOE.
you are trying to embellish your argument with hyperbole, yes? who said siege and forget? not me! just seems like you are a salty zerg player afraid to admit the truth. I'm watching top players like gumiho and TY. these players certainly don't "siege and forget". in the basetradeTV cross server finals, I watched gumiho try to avoid corrosive biles while playing mech vZ. sometimes he tried to unsiege the liberator / tank and it dies anyway, or he keeps the unit sieged and hopes it will land an extra shot before dying.
I already quoted you the numbers which show that babysitting your tanks won't save them. babysitting your liberators won't save them either. you have to babysit and also guess which tank / liberator the zerg player is going to target. this is entirely dependent on luck, not skill.
I disagree on principle with the idea of unavoidable spells and inevitable unit interactions. I am not saying mech needs a buff or zerg needs a nerf. mech is very strong vZ on the live patch. but... since you attack me with hyperbole, maybe you have a stake in maintaining this low-skill, no-brain, no micro relationship between ravagers and siege units... that's fine  don't want to hurt your win-rate
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On October 16 2018 06:57 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 03:14 SHODAN wrote:
there is one other thing I would like to see in the balance revamp. I wish tanks and liberators benefited in some way from smart servos. obviously it would be OP if tanks and liberators sieged in 1 second... but it is also stupid watching an unavoidable corrosive bile coming down on a liberator. even if you immediately unsiege when the corrosive bile is cast, it takes a moment for the liberator to accelerate and move out of the way. this results in the liberator always dying, no matter how quick you are. maybe if smart servos didn't affect the actual siege time, but reduced the unsiege time so that corrosive biles could be avoided... that would be a nice reward for players who are quick enough! You already can avoid corrosive biles. If Ravagers approach your tanks/libs you know they will cast corrosive biles. So you unsiege them before the biles are cast. Zerg can already hit almost nothing with biles if the opponent pays attention. Imo this shouldn't be made even easier.
You're right. Terrans should unsiege their army once the Zerg attacks with Roach/Ravager. How couldn't I see this?
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So not to be a complainer about changes but I found something really cool that these changes removes. Mothership Recall synergy. Basically when you're really far ahead and just want to have some fun, fly your mothership on the edge of the map into the enemy base, recall your army right on top of the base, then to add insult to injury, when the other player makes it back to respond, massrecall back to ur nexus.
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EPT
