EPTStarCraft II Balance Revamp 2018 - Page 5
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DreamOen
Spain1400 Posts
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kugel
Germany116 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1208 Posts
On September 10 2018 19:34 sneakyfox wrote: I'm not sure this really is a nerf to Tempest. When they become this fast and have that ridiculous range they will be impossible to fight for so many units. Above all it seems they become even more specialized as "giant killers". What are BCs, BLs, Carriers, and obviously Ultras going to do against them? They might also be used to snipe bases since they can now run away. Also, it is clearly intended as a buff for Has. They move as fast as void rays. Now, that's not exactly slow, but it's slower than most air units. They weren't used excessively to begin with, but change isn't really going to help them be used much more, as faster air units will hunt and kill it much faster despite a faster movement speed. So given that this niche unit is even nicher, I would say it's overall a nerf. Faster movement just does not make up for getting a 40% nerf to health. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On September 10 2018 20:54 FrkFrJss wrote: They move as fast as void rays. Now, that's not exactly slow, but it's slower than most air units. They weren't used excessively to begin with, but change isn't really going to help them be used much more, as faster air units will hunt and kill it much faster despite a faster movement speed. So given that this niche unit is even nicher, I would say it's overall a nerf. Faster movement just does not make up for getting a 40% nerf to health. Lets just speak directly on this. People used the same illogic on the stalker single shot damage increase insanity. In straight up fights...(situation almost never occuring) its a nerf. When kiting (what the unit is clearly designed for) its a buff. A stupid one that does not help address lategame issues in tvp. | ||
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omop
46 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On September 10 2018 20:38 DreamOen wrote: I would be happy if they put cannons as after a cyberchore required No way, it would eliminate cannon rushes and those are super exciting to see occasionally in tournaments. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
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JWD[9]
364 Posts
On September 10 2018 20:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: someone proposed this Widow Mine change in a previous feedback thread. I either agreed with them or I was the person who thought it up. I can't recall. however it happened... its great to see this modification to the Widow Mine! ... and good call by whoever proposed it. Well at least someone likes the change which will make me quit sc2. Have you played against the old Widow Mine as Protoss or Zerg? It only minimally impacts the highest level of play, but for me as a casual it makes the game too frustrating to play. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1208 Posts
On September 10 2018 21:34 DomeGetta wrote: Lets just speak directly on this. People used the same illogic on the stalker single shot damage increase insanity. In straight up fights...(situation almost never occuring) its a nerf. When kiting (what the unit is clearly designed for) its a buff. A stupid one that does not help address lategame issues in tvp. What exactly is it supposed to be kiting? It's main purpose is to kill liberators and broodlords. Carriers and BCs are never seen vs Protods in pro play. Neither brood lords nor tempests are a threat that warrants kiting. The tempest's counters are all faster than it both on ground and in the air. Remember, a void ray, which is the speed of the new tempest, is not a fast air unit. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On September 10 2018 22:25 JWD[9] wrote: Well at least someone likes the change which will make me quit sc2. Have you played against the old Widow Mine as Protoss or Zerg? It only minimally impacts the highest level of play, but for me as a casual it makes the game too frustrating to play. What's exactly the problem? For my casual level it didn't matter if the mines shot or not, it was all about if I was able to retreat with probes or not, if I miss the drop, it's game over because you won't evacuate fast enough with fast burrow. So for me this doesn't change anything. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On September 10 2018 22:28 FrkFrJss wrote: What exactly is it supposed to be kiting? It's main purpose is to kill liberators and broodlords. Carriers and BCs are never seen vs Protods in pro play. Neither brood lords nor tempests are a threat that warrants kiting. The tempest's counters are all faster than it both on ground and in the air. Remember, a void ray, which is the speed of the new tempest, is not a fast air unit. The use they see in pro play vs Terran is to kill libs as you say. So you keep them behind ur splash and move up out of range of the bio and vikings to pick off the libs then run them away. When the terran tries to target them u kite back..probably havnt seen this since the raven nerf since no Terrans are letting the game get there because its basically unwinnable (unless you are patience and let your army get blown up by a nuke :p) Being faster will help this. You dont a move them into the Terran army now with their current HP or they die..so why would u do this with the new ones?? | ||
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sneakyfox
8218 Posts
On September 10 2018 22:28 FrkFrJss wrote: What exactly is it supposed to be kiting? It's main purpose is to kill liberators and broodlords. Carriers and BCs are never seen vs Protods in pro play. Neither brood lords nor tempests are a threat that warrants kiting. The tempest's counters are all faster than it both on ground and in the air. Remember, a void ray, which is the speed of the new tempest, is not a fast air unit. Well it's the idea of this patch to introduce BCs into the meta. I think the point of the tempest change is to introduce the counter. While the void ray is not fast (and I think has slower acceleration than the tempest will) the tempest makes up for a lot of that with imba range. And with this speed buff it will be better at killing both libs and BLs as well. Harder to get bio/hydras under them. That said, I'm not saying it completely makes up for the health nerf. We'll have to wait and see. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
I'm trying to reserve judgement until I actually play the patch, although the cheaper robo makes me worried about proxy double-robo... Maybe now hydras won't feel so good against everything? | ||
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RandomAccount#399514
Spain53 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Not a bad change, but I dont think its enough to get these bad boys into action. You need time to get a fleet and when do you have the time? When you are a head. And when ahead, terran has bio to finish the day. Widow Mine: Good buff. Most terrans (me too) wished for a complete back to original widow mine cloaking, but this might be a middle ground. Needing a techlab for a reactored unit is still a pain, lets see if pros can show the way. Cyclone: I'd like to see the numbers of hits a cannon/stalker/zelot needs on the cyclone now, but its definitly a bad day for the cyclone in ZvT and TvT... matchups where I thought the cyclone is in a fine position. I agree cyclone could need changes, but this one? Thor: Not enough to make Thor counter BL, especially when lings and broodlings scrap them even more now. Mechers gonna be sad. Medicac: Changes something other races hate, but was rearly seen on the battlefield (again its reactored unit needed a tech lap production building). Banshee: okay Raven: Nice, nothing was more boring then mass raven. Sad, nothing was a better f.u. to broodlord zerg then mass raven. Neosteel: Lulz Overall Terran: I think the team overestimates the Thor in TvZ and should look into Broodlord Zerg against any form of Terran till they make the patch. Else nothing to go outrages: Burrow Changes: Dont know if this makes any difference outside bronze-gold. Hydra: They are already wimps, If I wanted to reduce the amount of hydra based plays, Id gave them slight cost increase. Infestor: okay Ultra: As a bio terran: Is he not strong enough???? Nydus: I see this as a buff, Zergs might see the cost tag of the building and say its a nerf. Wonder what good Zergs make out it, but I expect pain. Zerg overall: Changes are quite small outside the hydra nerf and thats the change I wouldnt agree on at all. Nexus: Good stuff, I like to see more motherships. Sentry: Okay HT: Big nerf. I feel its justified, protoss will tell my why it ruins their race. Robotic: Okay, protoss will still go stargate. Coloss: With lower hydra HP, maybe usefull against hydra. Vipers will kill all micro chances anyway. Disrupter: My bio will feel pain again. Tempest: I hate it. I think its gonna be terrible. HP should always be nerfed on em, but the speed... oh the speed... Carrier: Might be the right amount of nerfs and buffs to make them more interesting. Mothership: Only desperate people gonna use that spell Assimilator: 7 years too late Gateway: 10 sec lower buildtime for warpgates overall after WP is finished. Shouldnt change much. Protoss general: HT nerf gonna be a pain for protoss, new Tempest gonna be a pain for the rest. Enough theory crafting, onwards to PTR. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
On September 11 2018 00:15 Clonester wrote: Battlecruiser: Not a bad change, but I dont think its enough to get these bad boys into action. You need time to get a fleet and when do you have the time? When you are a head. And when ahead, terran has bio to finish the day. Widow Mine: Good buff. Most terrans (me too) wished for a complete back to original widow mine cloaking, but this might be a middle ground. Needing a techlab for a reactored unit is still a pain, lets see if pros can show the way. Cyclone: I'd like to see the numbers of hits a cannon/stalker/zelot needs on the cyclone now, but its definitly a bad day for the cyclone in ZvT and TvT... matchups where I thought the cyclone is in a fine position. I agree cyclone could need changes, but this one? Thor: Not enough to make Thor counter BL, especially when lings and broodlings scrap them even more now. Mechers gonna be sad. Medicac: Changes something other races hate, but was rearly seen on the battlefield (again its reactored unit needed a tech lap production building). Banshee: okay Raven: Nice, nothing was more boring then mass raven. Sad, nothing was a better f.u. to broodlord zerg then mass raven. Neosteel: Lulz Overall Terran: I think the team overestimates the Thor in TvZ and should look into Broodlord Zerg against any form of Terran till they make the patch. Else nothing to go outrages: Burrow Changes: Dont know if this makes any difference outside bronze-gold. Hydra: They are already wimps, If I wanted to reduce the amount of hydra based plays, Id gave them slight cost increase. Infestor: okay Ultra: As a bio terran: Is he not strong enough???? Nydus: I see this as a buff, Zergs might see the cost tag of the building and say its a nerf. Wonder what good Zergs make out it, but I expect pain. Zerg overall: Changes are quite small outside the hydra nerf and thats the change I wouldnt agree on at all. Nexus: Good stuff, I like to see more motherships. Sentry: Okay HT: Big nerf. I feel its justified, protoss will tell my why it ruins their race. Robotic: Okay, protoss will still go stargate. Coloss: With lower hydra HP, maybe usefull against hydra. Vipers will kill all micro chances anyway. Disrupter: My bio will feel pain again. Tempest: I hate it. I think its gonna be terrible. HP should always be nerfed on em, but the speed... oh the speed... Carrier: Might be the right amount of nerfs and buffs to make them more interesting. Mothership: Only desperate people gonna use that spell Assimilator: 7 years too late Gateway: 10 sec lower buildtime for warpgates overall after WP is finished. Shouldnt change much. Protoss general: HT nerf gonna be a pain for protoss, new Tempest gonna be a pain for the rest. Enough theory crafting, onwards to PTR. But this was such a great threorycrafting post  | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18063 Posts
On September 10 2018 22:25 JWD[9] wrote: Well at least someone likes the change which will make me quit sc2. Have you played against the old Widow Mine as Protoss or Zerg? It only minimally impacts the highest level of play, but for me as a casual it makes the game too frustrating to play. i'm in Diamond. i'm no superstar. i play 40% as Terran and 60% as Random. An upgraded Window Mine is a PITA for the opponent. However, i think it should be. As long as the "pain in the ass" aspect of the unit is not caused by the user interface or mouse or clicking issues... then they are part of RTS. There are aspects of SC2 i do not like. However, relative my currently available options SC2 is my best option by far. | ||
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JWD[9]
364 Posts
On September 11 2018 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i'm in Diamond. i'm no superstar. i play 40% as Terran and 60% as Random. An upgraded Window Mine is a PITA for the opponent. However, i think it should be. As long as the "pain in the ass" aspect of the unit is not caused by the user interface or mouse or clicking issues... then they are part of RTS. There are aspects of SC2 i do not like. However, relative my currently available options SC2 is my best option by far. I think it is just straight up PTSD in my case. I don't think it will affect the player base at all, just I won't go back to that randomness (Maybe after watching a year of WCS playout I reevaluate^^). | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
whats the point of buffing Thors HIP mode when swarmhosts literally hardcounter every single factory unit... also buffing HIP mode and nerfing armor at the same time just seems like nonsense. Thor will actually be weaker with this patch and Thors are already a unit you dont want to rely on. Currently Thors are units a mech terran will build when he scouted an air transition too late and lacks the viking count. You dont actually wanna use them as main anti air, because that will lose you the game. | ||
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