EPTI've watched you play Zerg on stream. They aren't broken.
They are an answer to your turtle Mech play though.
StarCraft II Balance Revamp 2018 - Page 14
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
I've watched you play Zerg on stream. They aren't broken. They are an answer to your turtle Mech play though. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On September 18 2018 12:59 Malongo wrote: Somehow I feel like arguing here is pointless. Some players take a privilege (being able to play with certain unit compositions) as granted and as a right. Terran isn´t Protoss, yeah. Are factory units bad as support units? The only real point you make is about weapons and armor upgrades, wich are -again- a privilege. In the end, it is never really about "mech", but about playing turtle with siege tank defence. I am pretty confident that even if somehow blizzard took the siege tank out of the equation (by replacing it with an equally good "mech" attacking unit) terran players would still complain because they want to emulate the siege tank-vulture-mine-turret combo from BW. It's not a "privilege" to be able to play a composition that your race is organically designed to support. If zerg were only able to play lings banes mutas in every matchup because ranged compositions were absolutely horrible, it'd be a massive design flaw. Btw ZvP has big design flaws : compositions are pretty much always the same because both races have insanely hard counters to the opponent's units (viper vs colossi or immortals vs ultras for instance). Factory units (or starport units for that matter) aren't designed or supposed to just be support units, or else, as i stated, every single terran unit but MMM, tanks, liberators and arguably ghosts would be extraordinarily tightly time framed and mostly built only once or twice. Anyway maybe it's indeed pointless to argue because you just revealed that you're actually not arguing the point, but instead trying to invalidate a somewhat imaginary playstyle that you dislike. Mech isn't necessarily about tank turtling, it's about playing without stim and with factory units. Stating things like "terran would still complain if" also illustrates pretty well your true aim here, which is indeed not worth debating. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On September 19 2018 20:22 JackONeill wrote: It's not a "privilege" to be able to play a composition that your race is organically designed to support. If zerg were only able to play lings banes mutas in every matchup because ranged compositions were absolutely horrible, it'd be a massive design flaw. Btw ZvP has big design flaws : compositions are pretty much always the same because both races have insanely hard counters to the opponent's units (viper vs colossi or immortals vs ultras for instance). Factory units (or starport units for that matter) aren't designed or supposed to just be support units, or else, as i stated, every single terran unit but MMM, tanks, liberators and arguably ghosts would be extraordinarily tightly time framed and mostly built only once or twice. Anyway maybe it's indeed pointless to argue because you just revealed that you're actually not arguing the point, but instead trying to invalidate a somewhat imaginary playstyle that you dislike. Mech isn't necessarily about tank turtling, it's about playing without stim and with factory units. Stating things like "terran would still complain if" also illustrates pretty well your true aim here, which is indeed not worth debating. Maybe you are correct and terran players have their own ritght from Blizzard to play "mech". All in all I just hate complainers in general. You have no clue about me thou. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
LOL, just LOL... | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On September 22 2018 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: "I think Terran should have a fusion core upgrade for Vikings that makes them immune to air dmg." LOL, just LOL... lol I ment to say aoe dmg... typed this on my phone while waiting for food aperently aoe-->air no no way did I mean to say immune to air dmg that is way to crazy =[. But yeah maybe a bit to crazy for zerg vs mech for Vikings to shut down vipers still id really like to see a return of late game ground heavy play or even reaching critical mass of upgraded mutas and counter atacking if Terran leaves as the win condition like we had on hots. The slow plodding static d queen bl comp vs static d+ ghost lib comp is just kind of boring and makes all the craziness of the early and mid game just grind to a halt. At least when the late game meta was 8 armor ultra things were more fluid and interesting with Terran dropping like crazy, trying to widdle down the ultras and hold on till enough ghosts, libs and Vikings could be made to stabilize. Maybe a more reasonable change would be to give Vikings a late game upgrade that increases there range, but I think this still promote turtling since now they just sit behind walls of static d and we are back to the dynamic we have with ghosts. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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dummy1
420 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On September 22 2018 15:59 hiroshOne wrote: But even if we're talking about "immune to aoe air dmg" it still soubds stupid. Imagine giving Zerg lategame upgrade that makes Hydras immune to aoe ground dmg. U make vikings uncounterable in this way. Still not wise. Vikings not taking AOE damage would be hilarious. Terran could slow push across the map in PvT with mass viking/liberator/ghost/tank and be quick literally unstoppable since Protoss would have nothing that could kill mass vikings efficiently. Also ghost/liberator/mass viking in TvZ would be just as broken. That's as funny of a suggestion as that person who suggested tanks shoot from medivacs a while back. | ||
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CaptainBurnTurn
United States80 Posts
On September 15 2018 06:20 youngjiddle wrote: Do you not realize that protoss recall aoe will only be able to recall like, 4 tempests because of how small the new aoe is plus tempest's huge size? lol. You do realize that it's not about how many yamatos you use on one tempests... drop yamatos on every tempest and you leave them at something like 20 hp. 2 seconds of BC moving attack and they all will all die. Like I said this weekend I am going to unit test them and maybe make a video.  I get that it sucked that mech didn't work vs protoss at all in high level play, but I think this change might be too large. Tempests can be stacked, but even if you can't, it'll hopefully introduce Motherships into the meta, which I would like greatly Winter stacks stuff in here and the recall works the same. | ||
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CaptainBurnTurn
United States80 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On September 18 2018 03:11 Jerom wrote: I wouldnt say swarmhosts are a balance problem as many top players have shown how to beat them and I dont even think they are meta at the pro scene because they arent actually the best response. Swarmhosts are just crappy from design perspective. Either you have a critical mass where you are getting in free damage every round or your waves get cleaned up easily and thus you will probably lose to a counterpush. The design of the unit allows for very little space in between and also doesnt really allow for much counterplay (either you push or you accept taking small losses to push a bit later). It just doesnt seem like a good design to have these low risk waves of units that are so extreme in terms of how they work out. In terms of actually salvaging them I like the suggestion someone posted about making them light so Helions counter them and can change them down. At least that would make them more interactive. Although I dont mind swarmhosts in general because they fortunately tend to be pretty mediocre anyways - if only they could be made even worse or be removed from the game. At least the redesign from hots to lotv made them less oppressive. I honestly might dislike the design of broodlords a bit more because they are actually good. The fact that at any sort of mass of broodlords the free broodlings block all pathing just make them a very oppressive unit. It just means that any ground army is basically useless unless used defensively or as support. It generally seems to force the game into either turtling or into air deathball vs air deathball - two states of the game which generally seem unfun. The fact that corruptors/vipers are great in mass air vs mass air contributes even further to these annoying air fights. Air units are clunky to control because of both their stacking and the fact that you have to click where they go on the ground (instead of on the air). I feel like its better if armies generally stay ground based. Maybe the broodlords would be a better unit if they spawned fewer broodlings (but generally keeping the dps the same). This way ground units might actually stand a chance versus broodlords. Broodlords are a huge design problem in my opinion, its the only unit that absolutely forces you to go air to deal with them. Due to that Zerg anti air has to be weaker than Terran or protoss, because the moment zerg has decent anti air options brood lords become absolutely broken. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On September 23 2018 06:58 Morbidius wrote: I think this is a key thing to keep in mind and why I am so concerned about what they have done to carriers and tempests. Protoss cannot beat a competent zerg with a ground based army since broodlords prevent any effective form of attack from happening on the ground. If the changes go through as is there now nothing stopping turtle play behind mass spores, vipers, and queens because broodlords force protoss to go air. Tempests and carriers are the only units protoss can make to actually fight turtle styles and both are going to be nerfed against that style.Broodlords are a huge design problem in my opinion, its the only unit that absolutely forces you to go air to deal with them. Due to that Zerg anti air has to be weaker than Terran or protoss, because the moment zerg has decent anti air options brood lords become absolutely broken. Puck even mentioned this on the recent episode of Pylon. These changes have a chance of bringing back 2013-style turtle zerg. Someone said it earlier and I agree that PvZ is going to turn into a TvP-style situation of protoss having to either kill zerg early with some kind of all-in or probably lose in a long, drawn out game. | ||
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Vision_
859 Posts
But it seems there s a taboo of speaking about creep... | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On September 23 2018 06:58 Morbidius wrote: Broodlords are a huge design problem in my opinion, its the only unit that absolutely forces you to go air to deal with them. Carriers/Liberators? | ||
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TheZergishOne
27 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 23 2018 23:32 Vision_ wrote: Actually terran players are punished for so many things.. The proof is done when you notice they are leaving pro level. But it seems there s a taboo of speaking about creep... Play like Maru/TY/GuMiho | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
It might be fair to say that libs are a problem for the same reason, as for carriers you don't go air to beat carriers you kill them before they get there. Still if carriers were less devastating I honestly would prefer there unit interaction over broodlords. The way that broodlords in large numbers tamper heavily with ground based unit pathing, creating a force field of broodlings that prevents units from reaching them is just very irritating, balance wise I think they are fine but I'm not a fan of the unit and it's interactions. Banelings are a strong unit that's fun to play against because the counter play is to micro well and build ground based aoe units, broodlords are a strong unit that's not fun to play against because the counter play is to mass boring air units and turtle, granted counter attacking and dropping is a more fun answer but at some point you do have to engage them. Maybe its just me but I don't find massed air unit interactions with other massed air units to be fun or interesting with the way air units function in sc2. | ||
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Vision_
859 Posts
On September 24 2018 02:35 Aunvilgodess wrote: All these chobos just gotta play like Maru. rolling eyes smiley. I can t play like Maru cause there s not enought zerg in my league. I will travel to korea to get a chance with go4sc2 hehe | ||
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