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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
Imagine zerg players complaining about hatch only play - hey dude hatch is unplayable right now, im forced to make a lair... wtf- or protoss players complaining about no gateway and robo only compositions -come on blizzard stop nerfing robo plz its unplayable vT I want to play "robo": The only reason "mech" is a thing is because it was playable in BW. Just stop, mech doesn´t have to be and should not be a thing in SC2. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10688 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Or any word from them that they are going to put these changes through or not. Do we just assume all of these are going through and they are not addressing swarmhosts? There needs to be a discussion about swarmhosts relatively soon or it's not going to get pushed through into an actual patch. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On September 17 2018 15:45 avilo wrote: So it's been approximately 9 or so days since the potential changes were announced, and still not a single word from blizzard about swarmhosts. Or any word from them that they are going to put these changes through or not. Do we just assume all of these are going through and they are not addressing swarmhosts? There needs to be a discussion about swarmhosts relatively soon or it's not going to get pushed through into an actual patch. Yeah tanks need to be adress so SH won't stay the only pre_hive tech that can counter them. SH is a bandaid to let zerg survive vs mech that received way too many buffs. Mass tanks is really a problem. Fortunatly they're adressing the Thor buffs. Something about the AI could be changed, like when there are more than 5 tanks on the area, they start to overkill. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On September 17 2018 11:09 Malongo wrote: I hate when people talk about "playing mech" as if it was something to take for granted, Imagine zerg players complaining about hatch only play - hey dude hatch is unplayable right now, im forced to make a lair... wtf- or protoss players complaining about no gateway and robo only compositions -come on blizzard stop nerfing robo plz its unplayable vT I want to play "robo": The only reason "mech" is a thing is because it was playable in BW. Just stop, mech doesn´t have to be and should not be a thing in SC2. Honestly I've always felt the same way. SC2 Terran plays nothing like BW Terran to begin with, so I really don't see the obsession with trying to force it to work. | ||
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On September 17 2018 15:45 avilo wrote: So it's been approximately 9 or so days since the potential changes were announced, and still not a single word from blizzard about swarmhosts. Or any word from them that they are going to put these changes through or not. Do we just assume all of these are going through and they are not addressing swarmhosts? There needs to be a discussion about swarmhosts relatively soon or it's not going to get pushed through into an actual patch. Oh how happy I am that they kill your terrible, terrible playstyle. | ||
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Regisko
Ukraine20 Posts
On September 17 2018 07:27 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: So seriously.... i dont get it. What's even their role in the game !? to hardcounter every single factory unit ? because that's exactly what they're doing right now. What a horrible lie it is. Hellions and hellbats are countered with swarmhosts? Lol, locusts just melt in case you will land them somewhere near hellbat. As a zerg, I don't like using swarmhost because of it's slowness and risks of having lots of supply frozen with no usage for some time. But they are the only valid way to counter this immortal mech fists, other case zerg just meeeeelts. And one more, speaking about "fun play". I've been dealing with some mech guys who play really interesting: lots of multitasking, or crzay macro and throws, or something else. But most of mech I see is "I hide while harrasing with hellions, mass an immortal fist, get out of the base, die or win", soooooo boring! | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 17 2018 08:10 Aunvilgodess wrote: So yeah I read that as "it kills my turtle mech playstyle". It is very much possible to play mech vs Zerg. But he's right, the unit isn't funny and breaks the RTS concepts. Swarmhost and broodlord both create units for free. No other race can do that. You either have to pay resources or energy. It would be kinda OKish if those units were "ghosts" - if you could freely walk through them(e.g. kamikaze-ball energy shot), but since they fuck up pathing(which was the major issue both in WoL and HotS with these units) - design wise it's stupid. (at least in the concept of SC RTS). Fun - that's totally subjective to the user, but I don't feel very entertained when I have to defend against SH or BL and I don't feel very entertained when I am using them. So I don't get from where the fun is coming. But I won't dispute the balance - while both units are annoying as monday at work after a party weekend, they're balanced. (but they require special response which is a band aid balance IMO) | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
If Swarm Hosts were light so that hellions could chase them instead of just tickling them this problem would be solved. Both sides would then have counter play opportunities. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On September 17 2018 11:09 Malongo wrote: I hate when people talk about "playing mech" as if it was something to take for granted, Imagine zerg players complaining about hatch only play - hey dude hatch is unplayable right now, im forced to make a lair... wtf- or protoss players complaining about no gateway and robo only compositions -come on blizzard stop nerfing robo plz its unplayable vT I want to play "robo": The only reason "mech" is a thing is because it was playable in BW. Just stop, mech doesn´t have to be and should not be a thing in SC2. It's incredible to me to read this in 2018. When the mech/bio distinction has been developped through design (mech-specific units and upgrades, split weapons/armor upgrades through different research buildings, etc.), through the design team communication, and the pro scene's history ("is it mech or bio"). I suppose that it's fine to some people that terran should only play MMM with the occasionnal mech support unit and/or units that are only good for a while. In that logic, cyclones should never be build more than once or twice after terran expands, ever. And that's the only role of the unit. Banshee speed, blue flame, cyclone AA upgrade should also never been research because bio play doesn't allow to build enough of these units for those upgrades to be worth it (because those units don't work well with bio and are therefore can only be built in a limited number through a specific timeframe). Terran isn't protoss. It's not "every composition is gate + robo or SG support but upgrades are the same". Upgrades are split, production structures are different, not every mech unit works well with bio and bio requires such heavy economical, technological and in terms of production that you can't build a lot of support units that therefore need to work well with bio at specific times. You have to know and/or understand nothing about the game to compare terran's "you either play with stim or you don't" design to "but it's like a zerg saying he just wants to play with hatch". | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On September 17 2018 19:18 Ej_ wrote: Spire units also have separate upgrades. Why isn't mass mutalisk viable playstyle vs Terran? Confusion between "the unit should be viable in a composition" and "mass". Immortals are viable and an important part of nearly protoss composition, but are most of the time not truly "massed". Also mutas are viable vs terran in a lot of different moments of the game, and can perfectly be integrated to a ling bane composition, or SH/mutas versus mech. Also also zerg units all have the same production so the upgrade argument isn't comparable. BL are perfectly viable out of pretty much any mid game composition and in any matchup despite having different upgrades. Zerg works in tiers much more than the two other races. Also also also building 60 population of a high tech specific harass/tradebase unit hasn't ever been viable but for zerg with mass mutas. You don't see terrans building 20 banshees. Which puts the muta question a very specific case. I'd say nice try but hey | ||
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Regisko
Ukraine20 Posts
On September 17 2018 18:06 MockHamill wrote: If Swarm Hosts were light so that hellions could chase them instead of just tickling them this problem would be solved. Both sides would then have counter play opportunities. Have you heard about banshees? | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Problem is takes too much time to make a starport and produce banshees when you scout the Swarm Hosts. The game is already over by then. Even if you already have the starport, getting enough banshees in time is not typically not feasible given how fast Zerg can make Swarm Hosts compared to slow Terran make banshees. Making hellions would make more sense since you already have the production facilities to support hellion production, and hellion are produced fast enough that you can actually respond to what you scout. | ||
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winsonsonho
Korea (South)143 Posts
On September 17 2018 19:40 JackONeill wrote: Confusion between "the unit should be viable in a composition" and "mass". Immortals are viable and an important part of nearly protoss composition, but are most of the time not truly "massed". Also mutas are viable vs terran in a lot of different moments of the game, and can perfectly be integrated to a ling bane composition, or SH/mutas versus mech. Also also zerg units all have the same production so the upgrade argument isn't comparable. BL are perfectly viable out of pretty much any mid game composition and in any matchup despite having different upgrades. Zerg works in tiers much more than the two other races. Also also also building 60 population of a high tech specific harass/tradebase unit hasn't ever been viable but for zerg with mass mutas. You don't see terrans building 20 banshees. Which puts the muta question a very specific case. I'd say nice try but hey I think Ej_ was trying to point out that since spire has separate upgrades it should be viable to go spire only vs terran (in the same way that mech upgrades should equal mech only viability). Also following your logic, pure zerg ground melee and pure zerg ground ranged should each be viable on their own no? | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
have you heard about hydras ? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17185 Posts
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Siegetank_Dieter1
117 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
That being said, as a terran mech lover SH are a non-issue, while I do have some clear disdain for the unit from a gameplay and design perspective they aren't really a problem. SH are there to force a turtling terrans hand and I think thats fine, mech (despite all the whining people do) isn't about turtling, its about zone control and strong pushes combined with fast harrass. If you are sitting in your bases making tanks and turrets of course SH are going to kill you, but if you are out in the map, threatening with your tanks and making lots of hellbats you will be surprised how much SH actually suck at straight up fights and at being defensive tools. Mech is here to stay but if you want to have success with it you have to adapt to the game. | ||
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Ryu3600
Canada469 Posts
Now out of boredom, I made a chart of how many hits it would take for a banshee to kill a swarm host based on any damage or armor (Should be noted its a very rough chart I didn't put much effort in) So if anyone is interested I have the chart here. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VwtQSDi7nZc9_ZkTkOC9UNbtXuf8YRQMD3t1kJcnobw/edit?usp=sharing I did not include any excess damage or show how much damage would be overkill. Only the amount of required hits a banshee would need to kill a swarmhost based on the circumstance as well as the stats of all 3 units (Banshee, Swarmhost and locust) Now based on what this sheet shows you can conclude that you'd roughly on average need about 8 banshees if you want to kill swarmhosts in 1 hit quickly and efficiently this requires a large investment of gas that would typically go into your army + a lot of APM to micro and chase the swarmhosts as well as upgrades such as cloak, speed and ship weapons which would require a third armory or stopping another upgrade such as Mech Armor or Vehicle damage. There next thing to consider is what time are swarmhosts out and how much time do we as Terrans have to invest in terms of killing them with banshees? It is a serious Gas investment as well as time investment + we halt the production of other key units such as vikings, tanks or thors. The banshee is also extremely needy (APM wise) and is pretty easy to kill if the zerg leaves even some hydras and an overseer and while banshees can be used for more than just killing the swarmhost it just isn't a good enough investment to consider. PS: This isn't to say we don't have other options at all to deal with swarmhosts | ||
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