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Polls have been added to the OP! |
On September 12 2018 22:00 travis wrote:
some of these changes are *INSANE*. Why are they touching the game? I initially misread the changes to protoss air, wow, they gutted the shit out of carriers. They weren't *THAT* good.
This is the main issue I have with it. Adding to much new stuff will make you retract some of that in a year's time: see disruptors... Even if only half of the changes go through (ok, some more than others), the changes will be massive. Much bigger fan of small changes that are tested a huge lot before going to the test servers, rather than forcibly changing meta once a year.
I honestly feel like the elephant in the room is how the marauder changes from last time around are maybe too good (with bio being rather weak without tho), but even there the jury is still out on PvT 2-3 base play, let alone late game imo.
misleading tl;dr: It seems I'm a bloody conservative when it comes to balancing
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I hope they will polish and improve current ideas. It's the first time that I was agreed. Everything. Sounds promising, dudes. Mech vs P is possible and real. BCs are fun (can't wait to see Maru doing BCs).
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On September 13 2018 14:50 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2018 12:35 washikie wrote:On September 13 2018 08:25 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2018 07:42 washikie wrote:On September 13 2018 06:07 FrkFrJss wrote:On September 13 2018 05:42 DomeGetta wrote:On September 12 2018 03:42 Charoisaur wrote:On September 12 2018 00:16 DomeGetta wrote:On September 11 2018 10:14 FrkFrJss wrote:
Now, this isn't to say that Terran doesn't struggle in lategame against Protoss, but perhaps they cheese because it nets them a much higher winrate than if they don't cheese?
Often times, pros are pragmatic people who will do a strategy that will let them win. Why did so many Zerg go infestor/broodlord? It was winning. Why did so many people go blink stalkers in 2014? They would win. Why did so many people go proxy oracles or adept allins? It would win. Why were drop overlords so present in early ZvP 2018 meta? It would win.
People go proxies sometimes because of imbalance. People also go proxies because they win. Just because a race goes for a lot proxies does not mean that the race is necessarily imbalanced. The fact that basically every win we see from Terran comes off proxy should make it pretty obvious that the pros dont see another way to win...or else theyd try it right??? Why try something else if proxy play has the highest winrate? If you dont have another style that works as well.. u wouldnt..thats my point. If you had 2 styles with comprable results you would mix it up to not be as predictable but we dont see that at all. Since u can go full retard or bluff proxy based on what scout..its the better option. All you have to so is watch all the tvps from code s post raven nerf and you can watch the comedy unfold. I dont know if toss will come up with a good answer or not but i hope it doesnt last much longer..and if they do come up with one then the matchup is just fucked the other way so still needs tons of work...way more than what im seeing in this propos IMO So the reason why people went blink all ins wasn't because the allins were op. People went blink allins because Protoss was underpowered. I've watched a lot of PvTs since the nerf, and when the Terran can pull apart the Protoss, the Terran wins, and if the Protoss can defend the multi harass, the Protoss often wins. I mean even during blink Allin era you would fairly often see Protoss do a diffrent strtagey, that was part of the strength of the Allin was that it was fairly ambiguous if you were going to do it or not and you could do stuff like hide the twilight or your extra gates to make it even harder to scout what your plan was. Now I guess there is also ambiguity in Terran proxies, what type of proxy is it? Is it an Allin proxy or is it a fake were they just proxy the rax but make a cc and factory back home ect, but it's not like you see Terran mixing in that many if Any standard openings and I think the reason is partially that proxies are a very good stratagey but also that Terran players even with pro level micro don't have confidence in using macro stratagies, from watching Maru he might use a macro strat like once in a bo7 and that's only after he has done 2-3 proxies already and he's just hedging against his opponent doing a counter build.And by macro i off course mean a 2 base or three base Allin with tanks+scv pull, because Terran wants to win quick. I think unless Protoss is explicitly countering proxy strats Terran macro strats just don't match up well with Protoss of a similar skill level. Agian I don't think that Terran is weeker than toss right now due to the strength of the new proxy style. I do however think that it's a problem if this is what the matchup becomes, Terran has a powerfull early game but is practically unable to contest a 4 base Protoss so Terran will always opt to try to end the game in 12 minutes or less to prevent late game from occurring. This metagame is just so limited and really reduces variety in the matchup Protoss is forced into a highly deffensive reactionary style almost evrey game and Terran is forced into a highly aggressive cheesy style almost evrey game. Now I admit other MUs have fairly forced roles like tvz Terran attacks zerg defends, but they at least offer a lot more choice in how players aproach the matchup Terran can go mech or bio, they can go 1-1-1 or 2-1-1 they can do a variety of diffrent things out of there 1-1-1 they can do a variety of diffrent things out of there 2-1-1 that dictate how fast or slow the game will be and this creates a healthy and varied metagame, zerg options are more limited since they are somewhat dictated by Terran but they still have a fair amount of stylistic and reactionary choices about how queen heavy that want to go. If they want to get a safety bane nest or roach warren or tech more aggressively, if they want to invest in early overlord speed, if they want to commit to counterattacks and play on a slightly lower drone count or be more greedy and deffensive ect. TvP is just fairly repetitive with both players forced by ballance into a very narrow range of options and the limited time frame that Terran is viable in compresses the time that players have to do interesting moves and make meaningful decisions, its balanced but I don't think it's what the matchup ideally should be and it fails to allow players to use there full range of skills. I'm not entirely sure I agree that Terran cannot contest a 4-base Protoss. I think if a Terran doesn't harass the Protoss and lets the Protoss get up to 4 bases uncontested, then yes, the Protoss has an advantage, but this type of scenario has always existed from the beginning of WoL. Protoss is weaker until they can get up splash to deal with bio. I don't think the fact that Terran is weaker at a certain stage of the game is necessarily a bad thing. That's why Terran is so strong at drops and multi-pronged harass; they are intrinsically designed to put pressure on their opponents and make sure that their opponents can't reach a certain stage of the game unscathed. A couple games don't prove anything, but this scenario is fairly common. A Terran (maybe TY or Maru or Taeja back when he was pro) multi-prong drops the Protoss and gradually picks them apart until the main Terran bio force can kill the Protoss. Or what about Rain (when he was playing) and Stats defending against the drops, getting up to their splash, trading cost effectively, and then pushing to win over the Terran. This was the classic complaint of MMM vs Colossus and HT back in WoL. Terran is strong in the early-mid game and weak in the late game. And to a certain extent, with liberators and cyclones along with disruptors (and adepts and oracles), Blizz has moved the matchup away from solely colossus and bio. However, the states of strength and weakness have not changed, and I think you would have to greatly change the game to change these states. Since all three races have asymmetrical balance to each other, their power levels balance each other out. Protoss is strong in the lategame because of their power units that naturally come later in the game, and Terran is strong in the early-mid game because their units come early in the game, and with upgrades they are even stronger. Zerg is the race about continually ramping up the economy until they can overwhelm their opponent. To change the strength of Terran in the lategame and Protoss in the early game, you would have to drastically change the balance of all the races. Now, Blizzard has also tried to use the liberator and the adept as ways to combat these problems, with the adept being strong in the early game and the liberator being really strong towards the later stages of the game. But the problem is that these units created their own balance problems with early adepts overwhelming early bio and liberators being very hard to deal with late game for Protoss. With nerfs, we've shifted back to T strength in early game and P strength in late game. The thing is that in a normal Macro game right now Protoss can get out so many blink stalkers that they just totally shut down harassment past the first drop or tech unit. It used to be that building the number of gateway units Protoss does in this meta would not allow them to have enough tech units but because of the huge upgrade lead Protoss will almost always have in a macro game they are able to stay on pure gateway tech for a lot longer than they used to be able to and thus get a big Econ and upgrade lead while being nigh untouchable By harassment in the hands of a good player. this tight deffense can be kept up untill toss gets up to 4 basses and spread out a bit but at that point it's to late, the proxy plays and 2-3 base bio tank allins have been terran's answer to this problem and I admit it works. Since proxies allow Terran harass to hit before toss has everything locked down with stalkers and tank allins allow Terran to take a decisive fight before late game with an army that's good vs stalkers. But as I've stated earlier I don't think this proxy and 2-3 base Allin meta is a healthy place for the mu to be at. In lotv in the past we did get good interesting macro games between terran and toss but overtime with ballance changes toss has just pulled to far ahead in there late game power for Terran to contest them like they could earlier in lotv, playing a non Allin style as Terran just isn't a viable option. In this new meta the type of harass plays that used to work in macro builds tends to just be a good way to throw away units that you need for your Allin, you can still play harassment heavy styles but to do so you need to open very aggressively usualy with proxys. In theory yes, but in practice no, Protoss don't shut down two pronged harassment very easily. Look at Neeb vs TY, that's a game where TY either dropped or just ran units to lesser defended bases, and Neeb was very much picked apart. TY won or almost won macro games against Neeb, and macro games are Neeb's forte. I do also want to ask which balance changes throughout LotV actually made Protoss better in the late game. I know the liberator got nerfed, and the warp prism got buffed, but I'm having trouble seeing exactly where Terran was nerfed and where Protoss was buffed that caused this late game imbalance. Raven nerfs were relatively recent, and Tempest buffs were quite a long time ago. Classic and Innovation played a 23 minute macro game in the Kung Fu Cup relatively recently. It was pretty back and forth, and perhaps I'm blind, but I didn't see any "blink stalkers" defending until four bases. What I mean is that after Inno's failed proxy hellion drop, they both made it to the late game and traded armies. Inno did not do a lot of multi-pronged drops, and instead, he went for the big fights. Through harass, Classic was able to gain an economic lead (5 or 6 to 4 bases) and eventually won off of that lead (also in a big fight around the 17 minute mark, Inno was unprepared for the number of colossi). I didn't see Classic make any huge mistakes, but the game still seemed pretty even despite Inno's failed proxy hellion drop and Classic's oracle/phoenix harass afterwards.
Post msc change bro. New chrono makes it impossible to stay even on tech and uppgrades in a standard game. Later game timing windows dont exist anymore. As ive said multiple times to you already.. we got a chance to see how the game looked late from maru early on vs patience (code s ro16 season 2 i believe) and vs stats in katowice quals..mass storm/tempest/mothershup/carrier vs mass viking lib ghost raven... this was the first time we saw terran able to be competitive with toss late game post 4.0 or whatever the fuck rev came this year. Then they nerfed the raven out of usability and we havent seen anyone attempt it in a pro game since. Im not saying t is broken u.p vs toss t obviously is gaining an adv in the current bullshit meta but your arguement about it not being imbalanced late is ridiculous.
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On September 13 2018 15:43 dicey wrote:
[...] Much bigger fan of small changes that are tested a huge lot before going to the test servers, rather than forcibly changing meta once a year. [...]
Maybe they do this on purpose to shake the meta and see if new strategies emerge.. to keep the game 'fresh'..?
Dunno if it is a good idea though..
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Will Cyclones stay armored even though they have 0 armor now? Won't they just be taking unnecessarily higher damage vs Stalkers, Marauders, Immortals, and the sort? I mean I guess if they stay armored it makes sense in terms of toss being to hold it off... Since then Adepts, Banelings and Hellions would start to do more damage but I think an armored unit with 0 armor is ... odd
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i'm just really happy that 3 years after SC2's final major infusion of revenue that Blizzard still has a team of people working to move the game forward.
Its a minor miracle that ATVI has figured out how to monetize RTS long term. No one else has.
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Terran needs splash damage in the late game in both match ups, the T v Z and the T v P (or alternatively, Z and P should have their splash damaged reduced). Currently is a race against the clock. With the proposed changes, I do not feel the problem is going to be solved.
If the ravens are not “the unit”, because they are supposed to be just a support unit, then there should be an additional spell similar to the Yamato canon, but with area damage (even if it is much lower). Currently, terrans have advantage in the short run, but once zergs and toss holds the initial pushing, the midgame-late game becomes impossible. In that situation Terrans resort to liberators, but the problem with the liberator is that they're not flexible enough.
For T v Z and T v P an improved battle cruiser with area damage would appear in the phase of the game where you can only barely survive with liberators. Note that this would help to fight the traditional compositions that make it impossible to go late, namely de ultra-corruptor in T v Z, and the death toss ball (stalker-inmortal-archon-storm) with tempest.
In any case, other option is to lower the viper vs Viking for the T v Z. Or to improve the ghost in the T v P. I guess making the ghost as deadly as the templar is to bio for toss balls could be an alternative option. Perhaps, rather than buffing the BC, it is better to decrease the damage of the vipers and improve the ghost vs P. Not sure.
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Cloaked widow mines are the reason that I stopped playing 4 years ago. I just got back into 1v1 and found the new window mine much more reasonable to deal with. I hope they will reconsider this change. I can't see it making a big difference in super high level games, but at the lower levels it's just another. whoops! you don't have enough detection and insta lose mechanic that I found so frustrating in the early days of HOTS.
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On September 13 2018 15:43 dicey wrote:
[...] Much bigger fan of small changes that are tested a huge lot before going to the test servers, rather than forcibly changing meta once a year. [...]
that's how david kim did things, and we all know how that worked out
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On September 13 2018 21:45 Ryu3600 wrote:
Will Cyclones stay armored even though they have 0 armor now? Won't they just be taking unnecessarily higher damage vs Stalkers, Marauders, Immortals, and the sort? I mean I guess if they stay armored it makes sense in terms of toss being to hold it off... Since then Adepts, Banelings and Hellions would start to do more damage but I think an armored unit with 0 armor is ... odd
Armor class but 0 innate armor, like the Overlord, Warp Prism, Liberator and Infestor?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 13 2018 23:14 Vincenzo wrote:
Terran needs splash damage in the late game in both match ups, the T v Z and the T v P (or alternatively, Z and P should have their splash damaged reduced). Currently is a race against the clock. With the proposed changes, I do not feel the problem is going to be solved.
If the ravens are not “the unit”, because they are supposed to be just a support unit, then there should be an additional spell similar to the Yamato canon, but with area damage (even if it is much lower). Currently, terrans have advantage in the short run, but once zergs and toss holds the initial pushing, the midgame-late game becomes impossible. In that situation Terrans resort to liberators, but the problem with the liberator is that they're not flexible enough.
For T v Z and T v P an improved battle cruiser with area damage would appear in the phase of the game where you can only barely survive with liberators. Note that this would help to fight the traditional compositions that make it impossible to go late, namely de ultra-corruptor in T v Z, and the death toss ball (stalker-inmortal-archon-storm) with tempest.
In any case, other option is to lower the viper vs Viking for the T v Z. Or to improve the ghost in the T v P. I guess making the ghost as deadly as the templar is to bio for toss balls could be an alternative option. Perhaps, rather than buffing the BC, it is better to decrease the damage of the vipers and improve the ghost vs P. Not sure.
The problem of Ravens was you can better stack air units than ground(with pathing issues(e.g. storming over a hold-position army) and for some weird reason you were able to stack Raven's AoE(WTF? No, seriously, WTF?). I believe the problem would be solved with non-stackable AoE(and maybe some shared cooldown).
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I've been saying for aeons: they need to fix the tank so it's auto-fire activates without wasting time searching targets. So frustrating when the presence of 3 zealots or zerglings makes the tank delay firing for an entire half second.
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On September 13 2018 13:31 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2018 01:42 JackONeill wrote:
I can't imagine that they'll keep the tempest as it is now. It sh*ts on mech even harder than the old one, which is currently the main reason why mech isn't viable in TvP. Mech will be better now in TvP. Tempests are absolute paperweights now against Vikings and Thors kill them twice as fast now, plus Carriers are now so much worse. Yes, they can be more annoying now, but only the most biased person on the planet would consider this a Mech TvP nerf.
Withouth stimmed bio you'll never catch a tempest, also thors would be ok-ish vs them but immortals would destroy them.
But it doesn't really matters, inmortal/archon/chargelot still destroys mech into unviability so the tempest changes don't really do much in that regard.
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On September 13 2018 21:45 Ryu3600 wrote:
Will Cyclones stay armored even though they have 0 armor now? Won't they just be taking unnecessarily higher damage vs Stalkers, Marauders, Immortals, and the sort? I mean I guess if they stay armored it makes sense in terms of toss being to hold it off... Since then Adepts, Banelings and Hellions would start to do more damage but I think an armored unit with 0 armor is ... odd
The units you mentioned will almost not be affected by this change. Zerglings, Mutas, Queens, Broodlings, Marines, Zealots, Sentries, other Cyclones and workers is what will fair better.
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As funny as this sounds, the only way to beat late game, 3/3 mass BCs as protoss was to make tempests. Carriers, voidrays, and stalkers lose to them teleporting on top of them and using yamato. Tempests sorta straight up won.
Now they nerf the tempest hit points by half. They will just get teleported on and yamato'd. Speed boost won't make a difference when terran can teleport+firewith shooting, making kiting my protoss non-existent.. It's hilarious. I hope someone could unit test this because I am curious as to how it works.
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On September 14 2018 23:24 youngjiddle wrote:
As funny as this sounds, the only way to beat late game, 3/3 mass BCs as protoss was to make tempests.
And the only way to get 3/3 mass BCs vs Protoss is for your opponent to go AFK.
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On September 14 2018 23:31 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2018 23:24 youngjiddle wrote:
As funny as this sounds, the only way to beat late game, 3/3 mass BCs as protoss was to make tempests. And the only way to get 3/3 mass BCs vs Protoss is for your opponent to go AFK.
same could be said for mass carrier but people still whined until they got nerfed out of the game.
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On September 14 2018 23:41 youngjiddle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2018 23:31 Elentos wrote:On September 14 2018 23:24 youngjiddle wrote:
As funny as this sounds, the only way to beat late game, 3/3 mass BCs as protoss was to make tempests. And the only way to get 3/3 mass BCs vs Protoss is for your opponent to go AFK. same could be said for mass carrier but people still whined until they got nerfed out of the game.
Rushing carrier was the best PvZ build for a good month.
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On September 14 2018 23:50 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2018 23:41 youngjiddle wrote:On September 14 2018 23:31 Elentos wrote:On September 14 2018 23:24 youngjiddle wrote:
As funny as this sounds, the only way to beat late game, 3/3 mass BCs as protoss was to make tempests. And the only way to get 3/3 mass BCs vs Protoss is for your opponent to go AFK. same could be said for mass carrier but people still whined until they got nerfed out of the game. Rushing carrier was the best PvZ build for a good month.
when mass oracle was a thing and every zerg tried to mass hydras lol.
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I really like these changes 
Would be nice if people complaining provided a reason behind not liking a change.
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EPT
