EPTOn September 10 2018 07:27 Vindicare605 wrote:
There's already a thread on this. Why make a new one?
There's already a thread on this. Why make a new one?
Because I never saw the other one. So thankfully they did.
StarCraft II Balance Revamp 2018 - Page 8
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ChampBurgundy
4 Posts
Because I never saw the other one. So thankfully they did. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On September 11 2018 10:14 FrkFrJss wrote: Now, this isn't to say that Terran doesn't struggle in lategame against Protoss, but perhaps they cheese because it nets them a much higher winrate than if they don't cheese? Often times, pros are pragmatic people who will do a strategy that will let them win. Why did so many Zerg go infestor/broodlord? It was winning. Why did so many people go blink stalkers in 2014? They would win. Why did so many people go proxy oracles or adept allins? It would win. Why were drop overlords so present in early ZvP 2018 meta? It would win. People go proxies sometimes because of imbalance. People also go proxies because they win. Just because a race goes for a lot proxies does not mean that the race is necessarily imbalanced. Not sure what to make of this lol. Yah..players play styles that they think will win....pretty obvious statement that everyone is aware of. So you can use the same logic and say people dont play styles that they think cant win...hence no terran players going for standard macro play vs toss bc...it doesnt win.. The fact that basically every win we see from Terran comes off proxy should make it pretty obvious that the pros dont see another way to win...or else theyd try it right??? Its very obvious that Terran is fucked late game vs. Toss..its not even a debatable subject at this point. Proxy play being the standard meta is stupid and frustrating. The only way to fix it is to make early game for toss a bit easier to defend and late game for Terran possible to win..this patch seems to take care of the first part but Im not seeing the second part unless BC some how becomes good enough to counter toss late..which doesnt seem to have been made any worse..carriers a bit worse but thats not really the main problem..the main problem is terran doesnt have an answer to HT / Disrupter / tempest. Dont see BC really doing much about that. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On September 11 2018 13:06 pzlama333 wrote: On several Chinese sc2 forum, a lot of people believe most of these changes are joke and make no sense at all, which collectively summarize as "fix a bug that allow Terran/Protoss to even win a game against Zerg." Sounds like they have common sense in China because i'd agree with that sentiment, at least that a lot of the changes make zero sense. For guy above that said swarmhost aren't an issue - lol. They have broken mech vs zerg for over a year. Every time you opt into playing mech vs Zerg, Zerg basically gets free income if they decide to make any amount of swarmhosts. It's like those buildings from cnc generels Zero hour - black markets. You just get free income, which you aren't supposed to get in an RTS game that has limited resources (minerals,gas). Swarmhost need a fix, or just a flat out removal, they serve no purpose in the game other than to make the game a living hell for anyone that doesn't want to play bio every single game. Making swarmhost more expensive would be a start, but also making them a LIGHT UNIT so that hellions can roast them would also be a good idea. I refuse to discuss, or even acknowledge there's any other changes until blizzard addresses the swarmhost. I would trade this entire "balance patch" for them simply fixing swarmhosts, that's how much of a gameplay issue those are. | ||
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Tappo
101 Posts
On September 12 2018 02:03 avilo wrote: Sounds like they have common sense in China because i'd agree with that sentiment, at least that a lot of the changes make zero sense. For guy above that said swarmhost aren't an issue - lol. They have broken mech vs zerg for over a year. Every time you opt into playing mech vs Zerg, Zerg basically gets free income if they decide to make any amount of swarmhosts. It's like those buildings from cnc generels Zero hour - black markets. You just get free income, which you aren't supposed to get in an RTS game that has limited resources (minerals,gas). Swarmhost need a fix, or just a flat out removal, they serve no purpose in the game other than to make the game a living hell for anyone that doesn't want to play bio every single game. Making swarmhost more expensive would be a start, but also making them a LIGHT UNIT so that hellions can roast them would also be a good idea. I refuse to discuss, or even acknowledge there's any other changes until blizzard addresses the swarmhost. I would trade this entire "balance patch" for them simply fixing swarmhosts, that's how much of a gameplay issue those are. Cant you just leave your character out of here? Arent you acting enough on your stream and twitter? | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On September 11 2018 18:27 deacon.frost wrote: I don't know whether you missed or not, but we're talking about the bottom 90 % of the playerbase. We down don't care about the investment, because if we would be good, we wouldn't miss the drop in the first place  I Although I believe that if a Terran goes for speed burrow drop it's either a killing blow or a win for Protoss even in lower loeagues(Dia, prob. even plat) it's still a move that relies on the lower league effect(players miss things on the map all the time)My comparison is more about the pressure on the defender rather than attacker. With the cloak - if the Protoss player doesn't have a detection, it's game over even with proper defense action(again, sub masters). With the old Oracle - if the Terran player doesn't have defense it's game over. It's similar in the game ending damage design not in the damage granted or investment where it very differs. While I honestly believe this doesn't change anything(those terrans who use it will use it and others won't because of the investment argument), I can get why some worse players don't like this change at all. I, personally, hate more the helion drop which is way harder to properly defend as helions tend to move rather quickly and shoot all the time  You'll have to be at least silver for that to happen, my point was that teching to drilling claws WM drops its such an investment that even low league players should have detection, its not something that you can easily 1 base like simple WM drops. A player to get punished would have to be so low that at that point everything will be IMBA anyway. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On September 12 2018 02:36 Tappo wrote: Cant you just leave your character out of here? Arent you acting enough on your stream and twitter? What? Any Terran that plays mostly mech knows SH are over the top and need changes. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15883 Posts
On September 12 2018 00:16 DomeGetta wrote: The fact that basically every win we see from Terran comes off proxy should make it pretty obvious that the pros dont see another way to win...or else theyd try it right??? Why try something else if proxy play has the highest winrate? | ||
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Odowan Paleolithic
United States232 Posts
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Tappo
101 Posts
On September 12 2018 03:33 avilo wrote: What? Any Terran that plays mostly mech knows SH are over the top and need changes. You are in your character, acting. Everyone knows that. I remember when i played hots beta against you. You spammed cyclones and said they werent actually that good. Cyclones were nerfed X times after that. Your judgement is part of your second persona. I hope. And now you are advertising yourself in here when you should do that on twitter | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
Disappointed with the hydra changes, IMO they're already fragile enough. The ultralisk change doesn't make much sense to me. The thing is it seems like it'll put a huge delay on ultralisk plays, since you already have to research +2 armor first. Overall the only big change for Zerg is the nydus change, seems like they want to make it a core part of the Zerg lategame. Somehow I still don't think it will do much, but it's a good start. | ||
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MrFreeman
207 Posts
On September 11 2018 21:32 algue wrote: Would love to see someone create a mod with those changes and have pros play a few games on it Wardi pls Well, it seems that blizz did it themselves with 4.6.1 <3 . | ||
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Legan
Finland369 Posts
Battlecruiser + Show Spoiler + •Removed random delay between shots for both ATS Laser Batter and ATA Laser Battery •ATA Laser Battery damage reduced from 6 to 5 •Yamato Cannon damage reduced from 300 to 240 •Can move while shooting This seems reasonable with the new focus. Widow Mine + Show Spoiler + •Drilling Claws upgrade now also permanently cloaks the Widow Mine while burrowed. A new visual effect will be applied to the Widow Mine to indicate this. Ideally upgrade comes in later and doesn’t make fast WM drops too bad, when you do not have detection, but lets WMs live multiple fights later in game. Will always cause frustration when hits big. I just hope it doesn’t increase Terrans defence too much with Tanks and Liberators. Thor + Show Spoiler + •250mm Punisher Cannons weapon speed changed from 3 to 2.5 •250mm Punisher Cannons damage changed from 35 (+15 Armored) to 40 (+10 Massive) •Javelin Missile Launchers area-of-effect radius reduced from 0.6 to 0.5 •Base armor reduced from 2 to 1 Punisher changes seems reasonable with all capital ship changes. The same with reduced radius of Javelin changes especially, when Interceptors depend more on how long they can stay in fight. Medivac + Show Spoiler + •High-Capacity Fuel Tanks no longer increase the duration of Ignite Afterburners. Now it reduces the cooldown of Ignite Afterburners from 14 to 9. •Medivac Heal will now work on units under the effect of the Phoenix Graviton Beam Fuel Tanks were only seldomly used and making effect longer never meant much, but with shorter cooldown jumping between bases will be much easier and also increase overall uptime of ability. Banshee + Show Spoiler + •Hyperflight Rotors upgrade cost reduced from 200/200 to 150/150 The change will increase usage simply by lowering cost, but I think that how much it will affect depends more on how good you are using Banshees themselves. If problem arises then I hope they try to adjust speed or acceleration instead reverting to keep upgrade accessible. Raven + Show Spoiler + •Anti-Armor missile damage reduced from 15 to 0 •Anti-Armor missile will now reduce Protoss shields as well as armor Clearer focus to armor reduction is better but may need some additional changes like increasing armor reduction by 1 or 2. The damage seemed to me to be there for early game, where building Raven could maybe cut total damage output of your army too much. Engineering Bay + Show Spoiler + •Neosteel Frame and Structure Armor are being combined into Neosteel Armor, which combines their upgrades. It will cost 150/150 and take 100 seconds to research—the same as Structure Armor. Hopefully this doesn’t make Terran to do too aggressive bunger pushes, specially from proxy 2 rax, but maybe +5 to cargo capacity of CC and Planetary Fortress could make island bases better or help against harass. Zerg Zergling & Hydralisk + Show Spoiler + •Unburrow speed changed from 0.71 to 0.36 •Unburrow random delay reduced from 0.36 to 0.08 Burrow is not used too much with everything else than Roach, Banelings Infestors and Drones. Only usual cases are banemines, moving/healing, blocking bases and harass avoidance. Hydralisk + Show Spoiler + •Health decreased from 90 to 85 Just 5 hp should not affect too much but can change meta greatly. Infestor + Show Spoiler + •Infested Terran cast range increased from 7 to 8 Ok but I feel like more could be done with Infestor. My ideas would be allow Fungal be casted while burrowed but add -1 or -2 to casting ranges while burrowed. Also I would maybe even swap Infested Terran to Viper for either Blinding Cloud or Parasitic Bomb. This should create a Auto-Turret like harassment tool. Ultralisk + Show Spoiler + •New upgrade added: Anabolic Synthesis •Cost: 150 minerals/150 gas •Research time: 79 seconds •Ultralisk off-creep speed increased by 10% (4.13 to 4.55). On-creep speed is unaffected. Understandable reasoning, but research time seems bit much when Chitinous Plating takes another 79 seconds to research. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm + Show Spoiler + •Nydus Network cost increased from 150/200 to 200/250 •Nydus Worm cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50 •While Nydus Worm is emerging, it will no longer be invincible. Instead, it has 6 armor. Hopefully leads to wanted direction, but good creep spread helps already in late game. Protoss Nexus + Show Spoiler + •Nexus Mass Recall renamed to Strategic Recall •Mothership’s Strategic Recall renamed to Mass Recall •Nexus Strategic Recall cooldown reduced from 130 second to 85 seconds •Nexus Strategic Recall radius reduced from 6.5 to 2.5 This seems good but I’m bit worried that it has still global cooldown instead of being separated for each Nexus. This concern is more towards multiprog attacks. Separate cooldown would also mean that army gets split when used so defensively not too good when attack focuses single area. Of course this would let protoss to save his whole army again. Global cooldown may be okay with Robotics being cheaper so that more of them are affordable in late game. Sentry + Show Spoiler + •Hallucination energy cost reduced from 100 to 75 •Guardian Shield radius increased from 4 to 4.5 For scouting cost reduction is good but probably doesn’t yet lead to hallucinated tech hoaxes, that would become too common. With even lower cost I could see such hoaxes happen when sentries can spawn multiple critical units while going for opposite build. Second change has understandable reasoning. Robotics Facility + Show Spoiler + •Cost reduced from 200/100 to 150/100 Maybe this and hallucination change will divert from SG openers but I think that issue is not only in map vision but also in map presence. With Warp Prism there is some presence but the threat itself is created by other tech units like Immortals and Archons and not from basic Gateway units, that don’t need anything else than Cybernetics Core. Oracles provide so much utility and Phoenix provides air and vision control with both also providing potential harass, thus opening with Robotics doesn’t seem worth it. However, if having something like 3 or 4 Robotics is affordable, then lot of things will possible and losing high tech army isn’t so problematic if you just have resources to build it back quickly. This probably greatly lessens effects of Mass Recall changes in late game. Colossus + Show Spoiler + •Added turret tracking This change will probably help quite much with micro, but unique vulnerability to air can still be too much. Also I don’t know how much Cliff Walking helps to anything else than in escaping and allowing to run through the map alone. So I would like it be more in focus, thus I have this stupid idea, that Cliff Walking could be granted to units under Colossus after an upgrade, either always or in special stationary mode. This probably would cause epic pathing issues, but also allow Colossus do grant new kind of maneuverability to Protoss army. Disruptor + Show Spoiler + •Purification Nova changed back to pre-4.0 state. Purification Nova deploys a ball of energy that will detonate after 2 seconds, dealing 155 damage and an additional 55 shield damage to all ground units in its radius. •Purification Nova no longer detonates on contact with enemy units •Purification Nova now sends a threat signal to the opponent on detonation instead of during the launch phase The problem with pre-4.0 Disruptor seem to me be that it doesn’t provide consistent enough damage in high level play. Thus, I think that the current is better, but with current consistency the damage was too high. I would probably have done something like splitting damage to 5 waves of 28 damage to increase armors effectiveness, or maybe increased the size to make them block other units more. However, maybe Colossus will be able to provide good consistent damage now and Disruptor doesn’t become too hit or miss unit. Tempest + Show Spoiler + •Cost reduced from 300/200 to 250/175 •Supply reduced from 6 to 5 •Hit Points and Shields reduced from 300/150 to 150/125 •Speed increased from 2.632 to 3.5 •Acceleration increased from 1.4875 to 2.8 Hopefully this leads to poking Tempests that need to be chased down. Carrier + Show Spoiler + •Graviton Catapult upgrade removed •Hit Points and Shields increased from 250/150 to 300/150 •Build time decreased from 86 to 64 seconds •Interceptor build time increased from 6 to 11 seconds •Interceptor damage decreased from 5x2 to 8x1 •Interceptors will get +1x1 per Hopefully Carriers will have enough HP and Shields to stay in battle for long enough to all Interceptors to be launched. It is probably better that capitalships provide more staying power or support instead of just damage. Mothership + Show Spoiler + •Time Warp now also reduces the attack speed of enemy units and structures by 50% in addition to slowing by 50% Maybe this creates good combo with storm and Disruptor against stationary units at least. Tanks and Liberators shooting only half of the current shots would be great, but the cast range of 9 and 4 seconds activation time may be too limiting. | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
All the continuous changes to the thor and cyclone make me feel like what terran actually needs is the goliath to replace this units. The thor and cyclone both seem poorly designed 'fixes' to problems that mech has. The direction of AAM has me scratching my head a little. I feel like they still dont know what they want the raven to do. Maybe the raven is a bit expensive to be a pure support unit that doesnt do damage. I wonder if it could be used as a support unit more effectively if the cost was reduced somewhat. From a balance POV I am happy they are finally looking at rebalancing the lategames. However, in these patch notes nothing indicates that TvP lategame will really be better. I cant see BCs or Thors becoming a thing. The carrier nerf might help but I feel like protoss can easily replace their carriers with other units and still stomp terran armies. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On September 12 2018 07:28 Jerom wrote: I wonder if ghost BC has the potential to work in TvZ lategame. I want to believe it can work at least, although I am afraid corruptors are too much of a hard counter to BCs. All the continuous changes to the thor and cyclone make me feel like what terran actually needs is the goliath to replace this units. The thor and cyclone both seem poorly designed 'fixes' to problems that mech has. The direction of AAM has me scratching my head a little. I feel like they still dont know what they want the raven to do. Maybe the raven is a bit expensive to be a pure support unit that doesnt do damage. I wonder if it could be used as a support unit more effectively if the cost was reduced somewhat. From a balance POV I am happy they are finally looking at rebalancing the lategames. However, in these patch notes nothing indicates that TvP lategame will really be better. I cant see BCs or Thors becoming a thing. The carrier nerf might help but I feel like protoss can easily replace their carriers with other units and still stomp terran armies. yeah I think alot will have to change to fix the current, proxy and allinfest that tvp has become. It feals like that mu has gone full circle, after adepts were nerfed tvp was for the first time ever in a state where both players could reasonably opt to play a macro game, due to the power of liberators, weeker stalkers, slower protoss economy. with the current meta though It just seems like terran wins or losses the game in the first 11 minutes or so, if it gets past that its a done deal for protoss. From a ballance perspective this might be alright, top terran players can still beat top protoss players. But I think its unhealthy for the fun of the game that tvp hinges so heavily on the effectiveness of early game shenanigans. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 12 2018 02:37 Lexender wrote: You'll have to be at least silver for that to happen, my point was that teching to drilling claws WM drops its such an investment that even low league players should have detection, its not something that you can easily 1 base like simple WM drops. A player to get punished would have to be so low that at that point everything will be IMBA anyway. It is an all in on my level, it either does the damage and the enemy denies the scouting, or it's a direct loss. It doesn't happen to me that much as I open in my PvT with phoenixes and I am very active with them, the Terran would have to slip around them to do the drop and deny my scouting(wanna see that). But I started to open with this because it counters exactly everything the Terrans do to me in my league with some proxy shenanigans hitting before I get phoenixes It's not "you have to be silver" thing, it happens in higher leagues too. And if it happens to me in Diamond it has to be happening bellow, thus affecting what, 90 % of the player base? So no, you don't have to be a Silver, it's 1v1 on ladder, remember how many batshit crazy builds we've seen in the Proleague setting ;-) (that won't work... oh, it did) | ||
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RandomOnlyTheHumanLf
58 Posts
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bretfart
114 Posts
On September 12 2018 03:33 avilo wrote: What? Any Terran that plays mostly mech knows SH are over the top and need changes. You have no idea what you are talking about. Your skill level is way too low to discuss balance issues since you make too many mistakes which have nothing to do with balance. We all see that on your stream. | ||
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GrandSmurf
Netherlands462 Posts
On September 12 2018 20:05 bretfart wrote: You have no idea what you are talking about. Your skill level is way too low to discuss balance issues since you make too many mistakes which have nothing to do with balance. We all see that on your stream. get off it mate. hes a grandmaster. 'way too low'. come on. | ||
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