StarCraft II Balance Revamp 2018 - Page 6

On September 11 2018 00:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:

i'm in Diamond. i'm no superstar. i play 40% as Terran and 60% as Random.

An upgraded Window Mine is a PITA for the opponent. However, i think it should be. As long as the "pain in the ass" aspect of the unit is not caused by the user interface or mouse or clicking issues... then they are part of RTS.

There are aspects of SC2 i do not like. However, relative my currently available options SC2 is my best option by far.

On September 11 2018 02:55 Charoisaur wrote:

this. I don't understand why people think it's a big deal. In TvP it will be never researched outside of some Inno-esque drilling claw rushes because double fac play sucks there and in TvZ it's only built vs LBM anyway and by the time the upgrade is done Zerg should have plenty Overseers ready. This change will barely make a difference.

On September 11 2018 02:36 deacon.frost wrote:

Widow mines for Protoss is the same as Oracle in HotS for Terrans without any defense. Either you nail the defense or it's a game over. I am a dia toss, speaking from experience. Fast burrow mines are a serious coinflip, you cannot even split in time with that burrow time.

Many P players have PTSD from them because they simple end the game if you miss one and unlike Terran we cannot go simply "build a turret" (this is not a balance whine, I play unranked so I have no issue in leaving right away)

I still wonder why Blizzard is unable or unwilling to implement the widow mine so that it can't target workers.

On September 11 2018 01:43 paralleluniverse wrote:
I agree with most of these changes, but here's what I disagree with.

Speed creep: Movement speed has been creeping up over time. It's time to stop or reverse the trend. In particular, Tempests and Ultras don't need a speed increase. Maybe even consider nerfing the speed of some units.

On September 11 2018 06:27 K5 wrote:
My thoughts on the balance patch (trying to be as objective as possible, though I probably won't be able to):

Battlecruiser(Cattlebruiser):
Removing random delay and implementing the moving shot definitely feels great, but then again, what does that accomplish? BCs are non-existent in every matchup, not because they lack raw power, but because they are countered so hard it's not even worth making them.
TvT - Ravens. 1 Raven equals 1 BC kill due to the interference matrix, which prevents tactical jump and shooting. BCs are also countered by Vikings + kiting and Thors in high impact payload mode. Even a high number of marines can deal reasonably well with the low to medium number of BCs due to the Marines having way superior upgrades.
TvZ - Corruptors. Relatively cheap and extremely high HP for their cost, + bonus damage vs massive targets. Hydras in medium to high numbers can also target fire down BCs reasonably well because of the upgrade advantage. On top of that, Vipers can abduct individual BCs, which is always bad for Terrans.
TvP - Tempests exist. 15 range + faster movement than BCs (from this patch) are the hardest counter to BCs in the game. Void rays and Stalkers with upgrade advantage are also great at dealing with BCs.

Widow Mine:
The change is HUGE, the mine has been dead in TvZ ever since the visibility nerf (though the Hydralisk metagame also contributed to that), so this change is great. Maybe we'll see some more dynamic TvZ games now with this change. Also Protoss will now need detection to deal with upgraded mines, which may lead to some interesting dynamic with sniping the observers, etc.

Cyclone:
Uhm, what exactly is this change going to accomplish in TvT? Cyclones will now die in 30 Marine shots instead of 36, but if you are defending against Cyclones with Marines in the early game the game is going very wrong for you. I guess this will make the SCV surrounds on Cyclones more deadly, but again, if you are fighting Cyclones with SCVs you're already dead. And apart from the 1 or 2 Reapers in the early game these are the only units that actually care about the Cyclone's armor. Outside of TvT, Cyclone will have a harder time tanking against Zergling/Zergling Baneling all ins, and Sentries will also do a bit more damage, but I wouldn't say that is too significant.

Thor:
The Thor changes apart from the faster anti-air attack in high impact payload mode are straight up bad. The smaller javelin missile radius will make them worse against Mutalisks, but that's still ok. The damage change in high impact payload won't actually do anything. It's like saying "we want to make people feel like we're doing something, but we have no ideas, so we'll just slightly tweak one number and sell it as a big change". Against massive air targets it's still going to do the same amount of damage. The armor change is bad, because it was introduced with the exact intention of making Zerglings worse against Thors to popularize Thor usage against Zergling Baneling Mutalisk compositions.
The main problem with Thors is that a) they don't do anything with their anti-ground weapon due to their extremely long retargeting time, b) the javelin missiles are only used to counter mass Mutalisk play, and MAYBE once every 100 games to help in TvT Viking wars, and c) they are so clunky that they easily get kited by units they are supposedly countering in high impact payload - BCs use Yamato and teleport away, Tempests have too high range, and Broodlord attacks spawn Broodlings which root Thors and prevent them from actually hitting the Broodlords. And same as with Battlecruisers, Thors get extremely hard countered by Zerglings, Zealots, Marauders, and Tanks.

Medivac and Banshee:
2 useless changes. If you're investing into a lot of Banshees, you already have to mine a lot of gas, so the 50/50 reduction on hyperflight rotors won't actually change anything. Maybe people will use it a bit because of psychology reasons, but not for much else. The Medivac upgrade is never researched, which will stay that way even after the patch.

Raven:
After the first damage nerf to anti-armor missile the damage was being used only in TvT, and it still felt a bit oppressive when used against Marines, so overall a very good change that will improve the watchability and playability of TvT.

Neosteel Frame:
Another useless change, that will make Terran players spend an additional 50/50 when they want to get the hi.sec autotracking, so I would say this is overall a bad change.
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Zergling and Hydralisk unburrow:
I feel like this change won't actually do anything really impactful, maybe it will promote a bit more of burrow ambush play, which would be nice to see and can perhaps make the game a bit more dynamic, so it could be a good change.

Hydralisk HP change:
I don't really know how this will pan out, because in ZvP the hydras are already a bit too fragile, while they are about ok in ZvZ and ZvT. Will have to see how this change plays out, it could be a good change, but it could also be a bad one.

Infestor:
This change actually feels useless. The Infestors MIGHT be able to throw the eggs a bit more behind the enemy lines, but otherwise I feel like this is another change that's useless in a real-world game.

Ultralisk:
I feel like this unit has been buffed waaaay too many times up until now (+20 damage vs light in HotS, bonus armor in LotV). If the Zerg REALLY needs a lategame buff, please consider buffing something more interesting than the boring a-move AoE unit. Zerg already has too many strong units that can be simply a-moved, while the counterplay from other races is heavy micro, which takes away attention from other aspects of the game (e. g. macro), while the Zerg can do that undeterred.

Nydus Network:
A good change to discourage Nydus all ins, though the 6 armor might still be a bit too much. I would rather go with 4 or maybe 5, but overall any kind of invincibility is bad for the game, so it's a good change.

Burrow hotkeys:
A quality of life change, though I would encourage each player being able to set the hotkeys being the same or separate. Overall a good idea.
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Recall:
A great change to prevent the Protoss freely wandering around the map with their entire army and making it more of a gamble. In the current state of the game, Protoss has way too much safety when moving out with their army in any matchup, because the Protoss units have overall a lot of HP, so if the recall is fast, the Protoss maybe loses one or two expensive units when taking an engagement that could otherwise lose him the game. I would say this is a change in the right direction.

Sentry:
The hallucination cost is probably something that won't change much in the big picture. The guardian shield radius on the other hand, will affect PvT the most, where Protoss already has an advantage, so I think this change is bad for the health of the game.

Feedback:
A good change, High Templars being able to kill all other energy units from high range basically for free was bad for the health of the game, so in my opinion this is a step in the right direction, but a lot of stuff still needs similar tweaking.

Robotics Facility:
This might make proxy double robo builds a bit too strong, but I can't really say from just reading the change.

Colossus:
Colossi already have high enough damage output, and they are only being used in the current metagme in the PvT matchup, where Protoss is already strong enough, so I don't think this is a good change, unless Terran gets some midgame buff that will balance the matchup a bit more.

Disruptor:
This will probably be a good change, it will affect all Protoss matchups in the unique way, which is good, and also promote skillfull usage of Disruptors, which is a good thing for the state of the game. Overall, a thumbs up from me.

Tempest:
I agree with most of the Tempest changes. The speed buff however, makes me a bit sceptic, because as the capital ships, Tempests are supposed to be slow and clunky, so that they can be chased down by fast units if they are left without support. This will improve the Tempest escapability in such situations, which I think is bad.

Carrier:
The Carrier already has enough HP, so I think the HP buff is uncalled for. Also, decreasing the Carrier build time, making it so that they can be massed faster is a bad thing, because they are a unit that is already extremely strong by itself, not to mention coupled with other Protoss units like High Templars, Colossi, Disruptors, Void Rays, or Tempests. The increased Interceptor build time is good, but I would like to also see an increase in their cost, or a nerf to their HP, because as it currently stands, the Interceptors take too long to die in the situations where players are relying on low damage high attack rate units to deal with the interceptors and move onto the Carriers themselves once the Interceptor numbers are thinned out enough. The Graviton Catapult removal might have a big impact, but I still foresee the Carriers being very strong.

Time Warp:
I don't really know if this will be meaningful, since the Mothership is mostly seen only in very late game PvZs. I don't know how it will pan out.

Shield battery and Assimilator:
A pair of useless changes.

Gateway:
I feel like this is uncalled for. it's the same as Terran players being able to auto build addons on production finishing or Zerg players being able to auto build greater spire after the hive is done. Protoss macro is already much easier than Terran or Zerg macro, so further removing their macro mechanics is plain dumb.
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Overall I would say the changes won't do much for the state of the game. Some of the changes are totally useless, while others are plain bad. There are however some changes that are a step in the right direction, but there's too few of these. If the goal for the patch is to balance the lategame power of each race, there are a couple of steps that have to be done:
TvZ:
- Nerf the Viper. Viper is the main reason Terran lategame against Zerg sucks. Abduct allows the Zerg to kill an expensive unit for free, while the Parasitic Bomb completely obliterates clumps of vikings.
- Nerf the Corruptor. It has too much HP for its cost and its role. It is supposed to be a counter to massive units, but instead it became an all-around Zerg air to air unit because of its tankiness and decent damage even against the non-massive units. Also, being able to fly in and caustic spray down bases before any defenses can arrive is too strong.
- Broodlords. The attack itself is not that much of a threat, but each one spawns 2 Broodlings, which prevent the enemy army from advancing, prevents Thors from being able to deal with the Broodlords, and even force friendly splash damage. I understand that the Zerg need a siege unit to break turtle positions, but maybe changing the attack to spawn only one Broodling would be a reasonable change for a unit that already has a good HP, very long range, and good attack damage.
Overall the problem for the lategame TvZ is the spore-Viper-Corruptor-Broodlord-Queen push, especially when coupled with infestors, because the Terran has no way to break such a position, unless the Zerg does a huge controlling mistake.

ZvP:
- Carriers are a bit too strong as it currently stands. Not by itself, but in combination with the midgame composition of High Templar, Archon, Immortal, they are extremely hard to deal with for Zerg players.

PvT:
- In this matchup, Terran has no lategame, because everything gets hard countered by something in the Protoss arsenal. Ranged liberators get dealt by Tempests, Thors get run over by Zealots, Ravens don't deal damage, and the Battlecruisers also get owned by Tempests. All the while Protoss can still transition into Carriers, which, in combination with any kind of splash damage destroy anything Terran can muster.

My suggestion for balancing the lategame would be to look at the lategame spellcaster units of all races. I feel like the Raven has finally found a very good spot as a purely support unit, while Vipers and High Templars in combination with the air army are still too strong. Their roles should be changed a bit, to be more in line with the Ravens, having only utility spells (e. g. blinding cloud, feedback). In addition to that, the massing of air units should be highly discouraged. They should be used purely as the support units, and not as the core army. I would suggest a complete redesign of the capital ships, Tempests, Carriers, Battlecruisers, Broodlords, and maybe to some degree even Corruptors.

On September 11 2018 08:04 washikie wrote:


While I think you have the core problems of the game down pat. I don't think can remove storm from the game, its just to core a part of protoss identity and to many strategies are centered around it to even consider doing such a thing, I think it would be fair however if storm did not hit air units, this way it still has the same power agianst clumps of bio, hydra bane, ect but it wont just outright win you the air game in most head on engagements due to the incredible amounts of dmg it does to stacked air units. as for vipers, abduct is in a wierd spot, I think its way to good vs terran and realy limits terran late game, in alot of ways its similar to how feedback used to totally deny terran the use of thors and bcs. Its just so good vs big units that once zerg has them terran just cant risk trying to go for big units. On the other hand the viper is absolutely mandatory for zerg to have even a remote chance in late game zvp and this is primarily due to the anti massive role it plays.I think that this issue realy stems from the bigger issue of protoss being to good in the late game and that you cant fix this isues with out addressing the strength of late game protoss in all match ups.