I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
Swarmhosts need a fix immediately. If you abuse swarmhosts properly versus mech you basically get an autowin. Every day i stream SC2 and play Terran on stream, every Zerg i get abuses swarmhost because they know it's essentially an autowin vs mech.
"avilo don't go mech then."
Ok, and that's why most people quit SC2 by now. Swarmhosts either need to be deleted from the game, or severely nerfed to the point they don't shut down an entire style of play.
Let's all be honest - swarmhosts never should have been added into SC2 during HOTS. They almost single handledly are what killed SC2's entire viewership and player base.
People can argue what they want here, but the fact is this unit is a joke game design and game balance wise. Things like this in SC2 literally make our community and game look like a laughing stock compared to what SC2 used to be.
I tell my stream this, but i literally have played Fortnite/LoL games where people will recognize me, ask me how it's going, etc, if i still play SC2, and i always ask them if they play or played, they always fuckin have the same anecdotal response - "i quit teh game when they made swarmhosts the entire game" "i quit the game when they made pylons able to shoot my ramp" "i quit the game during brood infestor"
I know people here aren't ever going to wake up because it hasn't happened in the last 4-5 yrs. You just accept the game in the terrible state it's in and think making mass swarmhost versus mech is fine and won't matter, but i tell you it actually matters a lot for people that still play the game. There are people obv posting here that still give a fuck, but the sad truth is the majority already left the game and don't care anymore because they see none of it is ever being fixed.
So again, let's discuss swarmhosts. What changes can they do to fix/delete this unit?
I would say, make them a light unit, and make them 2x more expensive. This unit should never see the light of day in any casual, ladder, or professional game. There is no justifying it even being in the game to this day.
On September 17 2018 15:45 avilo wrote: So it's been approximately 9 or so days since the potential changes were announced, and still not a single word from blizzard about swarmhosts.
Or any word from them that they are going to put these changes through or not. Do we just assume all of these are going through and they are not addressing swarmhosts? There needs to be a discussion about swarmhosts relatively soon or it's not going to get pushed through into an actual patch.
Yeah tanks need to be adress so SH won't stay the only pre_hive tech that can counter them.
SH is a bandaid to let zerg survive vs mech that received way too many buffs. Mass tanks is really a problem.
Fortunatly they're adressing the Thor buffs.
Something about the AI could be changed, like when there are more than 5 tanks on the area, they start to overkill.
Last time I checked, tanks don't shoot up. With the Thor changes, mutas will wreck mech if played sloppily. Which is how it should be.
When gumiho rekts the best Korean players who go swarmhosts every time it really makes you think how bad mech players are that they claim its an autolose for them.
Hmm imo all zerg changes are shit. For me it's going in the wrong direction with being sneeky by burrowing Hydras and Lings and Nydus plays. I would hate to have to play like that.
Why don't they change broken units like the Swarmhost?
I wouldnt say swarmhosts are a balance problem as many top players have shown how to beat them and I dont even think they are meta at the pro scene because they arent actually the best response.
Swarmhosts are just crappy from design perspective. Either you have a critical mass where you are getting in free damage every round or your waves get cleaned up easily and thus you will probably lose to a counterpush. The design of the unit allows for very little space in between and also doesnt really allow for much counterplay (either you push or you accept taking small losses to push a bit later). It just doesnt seem like a good design to have these low risk waves of units that are so extreme in terms of how they work out. In terms of actually salvaging them I like the suggestion someone posted about making them light so Helions counter them and can change them down. At least that would make them more interactive. Although I dont mind swarmhosts in general because they fortunately tend to be pretty mediocre anyways - if only they could be made even worse or be removed from the game. At least the redesign from hots to lotv made them less oppressive.
I honestly might dislike the design of broodlords a bit more because they are actually good. The fact that at any sort of mass of broodlords the free broodlings block all pathing just make them a very oppressive unit. It just means that any ground army is basically useless unless used defensively or as support. It generally seems to force the game into either turtling or into air deathball vs air deathball - two states of the game which generally seem unfun. The fact that corruptors/vipers are great in mass air vs mass air contributes even further to these annoying air fights. Air units are clunky to control because of both their stacking and the fact that you have to click where they go on the ground (instead of on the air). I feel like its better if armies generally stay ground based.
Maybe the broodlords would be a better unit if they spawned fewer broodlings (but generally keeping the dps the same). This way ground units might actually stand a chance versus broodlords.
On September 18 2018 00:36 Lexender wrote: This discussion is pointless, mech IS a thing and will ALWAYS be a thing wether you people like it or not, no matter how much stupid pointless discussion (or in EJ_ case obvious trolling and baiting) have, Blizzard has clearly stated so multiple times.
[snip]
Mech is here to stay but if you want to have success with it you have to adapt to the game.
I see you weren't around for WoL when mech was almost never seen except sometimes in TvT although even then overshadowed by bionic (marine + support) builds.
On September 18 2018 00:55 avilo wrote: I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
[snip]
Ok, and that's why most people quit SC2 by now. Swarmhosts either need to be deleted from the game, or severely nerfed to the point they don't shut down an entire style of play.
Man avilo I understand your passion but the things you bring up are objectively wrong.
SC2 was at its peak in terms of viewership and playerbase when TvZ meta was nothing but Marine Tank Medivac vs Muta Ling Bling (and later infestors became popular).
Hype matches like Nestea vs Mvp, MMA vs DongRaeGu, Leenock vs Jjakji, MarineKing and BoxeR showing off crazy micro. That's when the game was the most popular, that's when MLG Providence hit 200k concurrent viewers, that's when every next big event was breaking some kind of record either for SC2 or even eSports in general.
It was the bio microfest vs the ling bling microfest. That's what was most popular.
That's what made BW TvZ the most hype too, SK Terran, not mech. Few people who don't play Terran actually like watching mech, in either game, even though in BW it's better and doesn't feel like a hamfisted afterthought.
On September 17 2018 23:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I love the new role for the Terran Thor. Its the Kevin Nash of the game... its the Giant Killer.
On September 18 2018 00:03 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Thors are the starbucks coffees of SC2... not good, just expensive.
Thors are just ToOoOoOo SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Seriously though, if the current 40+10 ( Massive ) is not strong enough they can just increase the Massive modifier and sharpen the Thor's role even further. I think the new roll Blizzard has carved out for the Thor is an awesome idea.
Blizzard earned my skins and co-op money for 2018. I'm a satisfied customer.
On September 18 2018 00:55 avilo wrote: I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
activity around SC2 is up slightly in comparison to 2017. it is Overwatch that is bleeding users badly.
On September 18 2018 00:03 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Thors are the starbucks coffees of SC2... not good, just expensive.
Thors are just ToOoOoOo SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Seriously though, if the current 40+10 ( Massive ) is not strong enough they can just increase the Massive modifier and sharpen the Thor's role even further. I think the new roll Blizzard has carved out for the Thor is an awesome idea.
Blizzard earned my skins and co-op money for 2018. I'm a satisfied customer.
On September 17 2018 23:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I love the new role for the Terran Thor. Its the Kevin Nash of the game... its the Giant Killer.
On September 18 2018 00:03 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Thors are the starbucks coffees of SC2... not good, just expensive.
Thors are just ToOoOoOo SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Seriously though, if the current 40+10 ( Massive ) is not strong enough they can just increase the Massive modifier and sharpen the Thor's role even further. I think the new roll Blizzard has carved out for the Thor is an awesome idea.
Blizzard earned my skins and co-op money for 2018. I'm a satisfied customer.
On September 18 2018 00:55 avilo wrote: I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
activity around SC2 is up slightly in comparison to 2017. it is Overwatch that is bleeding users badly.
Just like DotA 2 and CS:GO. Basically every game that is not fortnite
if you pay attention to the ATVI report. ATVI franchises are stable or growing. Except, Overwatch.
On September 17 2018 23:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I love the new role for the Terran Thor. Its the Kevin Nash of the game... its the Giant Killer.
On September 18 2018 00:03 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Thors are the starbucks coffees of SC2... not good, just expensive.
Thors are just ToOoOoOo SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Seriously though, if the current 40+10 ( Massive ) is not strong enough they can just increase the Massive modifier and sharpen the Thor's role even further. I think the new roll Blizzard has carved out for the Thor is an awesome idea.
Blizzard earned my skins and co-op money for 2018. I'm a satisfied customer.
On September 18 2018 00:55 avilo wrote: I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
activity around SC2 is up slightly in comparison to 2017. it is Overwatch that is bleeding users badly.
Just like DotA 2 and CS:GO. Basically every game that is not fortnite
if you pay attention to the ATVI report. ATVI franchises are stable or growing. Except, Overwatch.
Why are the steamcharts numbers for dota 2 and cs:go not as big as they used to be? DotA 2 and CS:GO should grow because Valve is the best developer, or?
The Swarmhost games Ive seen were usually rather fun. And I tell you what, if Swarmhosts get changed and turtle mech becomes viable we have a *serious* problem. The banshee buff is a step in the right direction to make a style of mech viable that is a little more skill intensive.
On September 17 2018 23:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I love the new role for the Terran Thor. Its the Kevin Nash of the game... its the Giant Killer.
On September 18 2018 00:03 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: Thors are the starbucks coffees of SC2... not good, just expensive.
Thors are just ToOoOoOo SWEEEEEEEEEEET!
Seriously though, if the current 40+10 ( Massive ) is not strong enough they can just increase the Massive modifier and sharpen the Thor's role even further. I think the new roll Blizzard has carved out for the Thor is an awesome idea.
Blizzard earned my skins and co-op money for 2018. I'm a satisfied customer.
On September 18 2018 00:55 avilo wrote: I love the people here that just want SC2 to stay in the grave.
activity around SC2 is up slightly in comparison to 2017. it is Overwatch that is bleeding users badly.
Just like DotA 2 and CS:GO. Basically every game that is not fortnite
if you pay attention to the ATVI report. ATVI franchises are stable or growing. Except, Overwatch.
Why are the steamcharts numbers for dota 2 and cs:go not as big as they used to be? DotA 2 and CS:GO should grow because Valve is the best developer, or?
no clue. i'm talking about ATVI franchises. Overwatch is bleeding badly. everything else under activision and blizzard is stable.
On September 17 2018 11:09 Malongo wrote: I hate when people talk about "playing mech" as if it was something to take for granted,
Imagine zerg players complaining about hatch only play - hey dude hatch is unplayable right now, im forced to make a lair... wtf- or protoss players complaining about no gateway and robo only compositions -come on blizzard stop nerfing robo plz its unplayable vT I want to play "robo":
The only reason "mech" is a thing is because it was playable in BW. Just stop, mech doesn´t have to be and should not be a thing in SC2.
It's incredible to me to read this in 2018. When the mech/bio distinction has been developped through design (mech-specific units and upgrades, split weapons/armor upgrades through different research buildings, etc.), through the design team communication, and the pro scene's history ("is it mech or bio").
I suppose that it's fine to some people that terran should only play MMM with the occasionnal mech support unit and/or units that are only good for a while. In that logic, cyclones should never be build more than once or twice after terran expands, ever. And that's the only role of the unit. Banshee speed, blue flame, cyclone AA upgrade should also never been research because bio play doesn't allow to build enough of these units for those upgrades to be worth it (because those units don't work well with bio and are therefore can only be built in a limited number through a specific timeframe).
Terran isn't protoss. It's not "every composition is gate + robo or SG support but upgrades are the same". Upgrades are split, production structures are different, not every mech unit works well with bio and bio requires such heavy economical, technological and in terms of production that you can't build a lot of support units that therefore need to work well with bio at specific times.
You have to know and/or understand nothing about the game to compare terran's "you either play with stim or you don't" design to "but it's like a zerg saying he just wants to play with hatch".
Somehow I feel like arguing here is pointless. Some players take a privilege (being able to play with certain unit compositions) as granted and as a right. Terran isn´t Protoss, yeah. Are factory units bad as support units? The only real point you make is about weapons and armor upgrades, wich are -again- a privilege.
In the end, it is never really about "mech", but about playing turtle with siege tank defence. I am pretty confident that even if somehow blizzard took the siege tank out of the equation (by replacing it with an equally good "mech" attacking unit) terran players would still complain because they want to emulate the siege tank-vulture-mine-turret combo from BW.
I dont get people who pretend like mech isn't supposed to be a thing!?
Mech is a part of Terran's design as a race. And no, it's not just BW players who would like to play mech in SC2 too, Mech clearly is and always was supposed to be a playable style.
Blizzard themselves stated multiple times that they want to make mech more viable and people still come up with weird arguments like "but as a protoss i cant play mass robo either blabla"
Different races are different, but to pretend like mech isn't even supposed to be a playable style, is just ridiculous. No StarCraft veteran could say something like that with a straight face.
Hellbats for example got added into the game simply to make mech more viable vs protoss. Thors get constant changes to make mech not auto lose to mass air.
Tankivacs got removed to buff tanks and make mech viable (it was also a highly requested design change by the community)
There are countless examples.
For those who still dont believe me
Every time people discuss mech viability, there's always some people who just come up with those nonsense statements that mech shouldn't be an actual style. Cmon guys. Stop it.
Years and years later Avilo still advocating for anything that keeps mech in check to be removed or nerfed into oblivion, stating that it's "bad for the game" when SC2 was undeniably most popular when mech was all but unviable in everything but TvT.
Oh and Avilo, I'm sure you see Gumiho make Swarm Hosts look bad, either learn to play or start going bio man good God.
I listened to the recent episode of the Pylon podcast where they went through all of these changes. With how they described the new carrier, I have some concerns especially with regards to lategame PvZ. They basically implied the new carrier is bad enough that it's not viable to go for carriers anymore at all. If the protoss air composition of choice switches to being tempest-based, I'm worried we're going to see a return of turtle zerg styles since the new lower health tempest is much more susceptible to viper/queen/mass spore styles. Yes, new tempests are faster, but they still attack very slowly, so moving out with them is still going to be a slow process and thus is going to force a long game if zerg plays it right.
One thing they mentioned on the podcast is that one of the reasons the balance team gave for getting rid of Gravitron Catapult from the carrier is that it allows for too much burst damage. This seems like a silly way to handle the problem to me. It's akin to saying "marines are too good with stim currently, so let's get rid of stim altogether" rather than trying to tone down the upgrade. Without Gravitron Catapult, carriers are not a particularly good unit. The upgrade is what makes them viable in SC2. Why not have Gravitron Catapult launch half of available interceptors, or something like that? It would solve the burst damage issue while still allowing carriers to actually engage rather than needing a bunch of time to launch interceptors before being able to assist in the fight at all. It would allow the carriers to do damage, but protoss would be forced to build other units to backup the carriers since they still need time to release all interceptors, which is what we want. Mass carriers wouldn't be viable, but using carriers as the backbone of an army would still work.
They also mentioned that carriers are too good of an all-around unit, which is definitely true (once you get 10 of them with a few archons and storms you can kill almost any composition) but without it, protoss becomes quite fragile to tech switches, which zerg can do in the lategame much easier than protoss can. I worry that PvZ might return to being either protoss all-ins on two bases, turtles to mass tempest and have dull 40 minute games, or dies to non-stop tech switches.
Carriers are too good right now , but making them completely not viable at all is not the way to go about fixing them.
I haven't seen anyone mention what this means for team games. Anyone who's played any sort of 3v3 or 4v4 team games in the past year might have noticed the absolute plague of protoss players who sit behind cannons and their teammates and build up an unstoppable mass of carriers. It was so prevalent in every single game and there were very few things you could actually do to counter them that it ruined team games entirely. If you did anything as Toss other than building carriers, you weren't playing to win. I'm hopeful that these new carrier nerfs will reduce mass carriers in team games from being an I-win button to actually being able to stand up to them a bit better.
EPT
imo all zerg changes are shit.
