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If you consider "Skill" being able to type and click real fast, then that is what you must be referring to when you talk about this unit production.
All it really is is being able to hotkey and press real fast...and I don't think it will make a huge difference if we change it. Boxer, Nada, Oov, and Savior aren't gosu just because they can click fast...they are gosu because of their micro and "sense" of the game. Just because you give everyone the same macro enhancements doesn't mean it is going to bring down the skill of the game. Pros will still know when to produce, how much, and what and noobs will still create units in akward intervals and create up 10 tanks in their production qeues and ruin their economy instead of creating up steadily over time.
This isn't going to ruin the game. If you are scared of that, then you need to really re-examine what makes pros Pros. If something as little as this could "remove" their title, then they shouldn't be considered pros. Simple as that.
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No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros.
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On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros.
If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken.
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On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros.
Exactly. Trust me, allowing a player to select all of their buildings and create units won't ruin our level of playing. If you are afraid of that...please, be more confident in your skill. You aren't better than the player you just beat the other day just because of being able to hotkey and click things fast. You are better (hopefully) because of your "sense" of the game and being able to produce the right things at the right time. Adding a nice interface like this won't ruin your macro and certainly won't give your opponent an edge...remember, you are also gaining that edge.
Macro isn't just being able to hotkey these buildings and produce units. Any high level players should know that. This won't hurt macro at all...no player should be in jeopardy of being defeated because their opponent now can use a nifty interface....especially because that player can also use it too. It isn't like Blizzard is walking around handing noobs free passes into the upper tier of Starcraft gameplay...people are definitely freaking out too much about this.
And on the topic of unit selection...keep it unlimited. You know how annoying it is when I have my zerg army to send them all into battle? All of my hotkeys are already being used for hatcheries and it is a pain in the ass to have to select 12, send, select 12, send, etc. I think that adding an unlimited unit selection will only raise the gameplay for EVERYONE to a higher level. Pros will be godlier and noobs will be slightly better...but the gap between them will remain the same. Something this piddly doesn't decide games. Welcome change...it is how things get better.
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It's not as if it will be even used much by better players. It isn't even that useful IMO. In War3 I never used it... it is kind of noobish to macro the same unit at the same time. I really don't care about this feature, I'm just for improving interface in general. Selecting multiple buildings will hardly account for 60% of the game as some have said.
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On May 21 2007 17:33 Servolisk wrote:
Why don't we just make SC mouse only to further increase the skill gap and make another non-strategic element a big factor of a strategy game?
exactly~~ I don't want players able to do that fast to be "better" players, I want the people to win the games with strategy, making the right decisions out of experience and such things.
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On May 21 2007 18:14 TheOvermind77 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. Exactly. Trust me, allowing a player to select all of their buildings and create units won't ruin our level of playing. If you are afraid of that...please, be more confident in your skill. You aren't better than the player you just beat the other day just because of being able to hotkey and click things fast. You are better (hopefully) because of your "sense" of the game and being able to produce the right things at the right time. Adding a nice interface like this won't ruin your macro and certainly won't give your opponent an edge...remember, you are also gaining that edge. Macro isn't just being able to hotkey these buildings and produce units. Any high level players should know that. This won't hurt macro at all...no player should be in jeopardy of being defeated because their opponent now can use a nifty interface....especially because that player can also use it too. It isn't like Blizzard is walking around handing noobs free passes into the upper tier of Starcraft gameplay...people are definitely freaking out too much about this. And on the topic of unit selection...keep it unlimited. You know how annoying it is when I have my zerg army to send them all into battle? All of my hotkeys are already being used for hatcheries and it is a pain in the ass to have to select 12, send, select 12, send, etc. I think that adding an unlimited unit selection will only raise the gameplay for EVERYONE to a higher level. Pros will be godlier and noobs will be slightly better...but the gap between them will remain the same. Something this piddly doesn't decide games. Welcome change...it is how things get better.
It isn't so much that we want to force players to 5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd0sd just for the hell of it. It's just by forcing them to do so, it indirectly forces them to make split second decisions and any delay would put you behind your opponent compounded by the fact that each hotkey takes even more time to execute.
Even mindlessly hotkeying all of your production buildings and massing one unit, and the next time around massing another, you are pretty much on par with other higher level players. Even if multiple building selection is allow, at least it should be limited.
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On May 21 2007 18:14 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken.
I belive there are quiet of few top foreigners with APM higher then that of savior or oov.
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Those who think multiselection building will not reduce hugely the skill's gap seriously have no clue. And dont argue there will still be one, everyone understand this my god. The point is that it will be ! reduced.
And please War3 players, wait for War4 if you want to simplify the game even more or claim that upkeep and creeps should be good features to implement.
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On May 21 2007 18:22 Person514cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:14 mahnini wrote:On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken. I belive there are quiet of few top foreigners with APM higher then that of savior or oov.
High APM =/= Good mechanics
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On May 21 2007 18:19 jtan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 17:33 Servolisk wrote:
Why don't we just make SC mouse only to further increase the skill gap and make another non-strategic element a big factor of a strategy game? exactly~~ I don't want players able to do that fast to be "better" players, I want the people to win the games with strategy, making the right decisions out of experience and such things.
On May 21 2007 18:06 mahnini wrote:
"why don't we just limit the number of production buildings, because that would further even the playing field?"
Because it shouldn't be about how many production buildings you can make, it should be about strategy right?
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On May 21 2007 18:22 Person514cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:14 mahnini wrote:On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken. I belive there are quiet of few top foreigners with APM higher then that of savior or oov.
No foreign Terran can use SKTerran as effectively as Nada while macroing out of 9 raxes, the same could be said about July's muta micro, or savior's defiler usage.
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On May 21 2007 18:25 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:22 Person514cs wrote:On May 21 2007 18:14 mahnini wrote:On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken. I belive there are quiet of few top foreigners with APM higher then that of savior or oov. No foreign Terran can use SKTerran as effectively as Nada while macroing out of 9 raxes, the same could be said about July's muta micro, or savior's defiler usage.
All the pros that I ever mentioned are savior and oov, why are you keep talking about nada?
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United States7488 Posts
I have no problem mass selecting units and building as long as its done properly. The way I'd like to see it implemented is so that you can't just auto command all the buildings to build at once and also you can't just hit keys and the next barracks in line will make your unit (this would be difficult for zerg to emulate).
What I would suggest is that you CAN select multiple buildings, but once you have them all selected you have to click on the icon of a sepcific building to bring up the commands to be able to build a unit. Other commands (such as attack for defense sructures, or a common rally point) could be used in mass and improve the game I believe. This works decently for all three races as well. It frees up additional hotkeys which can be used for more specific groups of control units. It allows the user to be able to build units without having to click all over the map and they still need the general awareness to know when and which buildings are ready to build more units.
edit: not necessarily this specifically, but if it is to be done, somewhere along these lines would be best I think.
edit edit: FA's tab idea right below this post sounds pretty good too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't think having to click each building is feasible, however, having something like the tab command in warcraft 3 would be (tab and you move to the next type of units you have selected, but in this case I'd suggest you just move to the next building - in the selection wireframe that is, not on screen).
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On May 21 2007 18:31 Person514cs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2007 18:25 mahnini wrote:On May 21 2007 18:22 Person514cs wrote:On May 21 2007 18:14 mahnini wrote:On May 21 2007 18:06 Person514cs wrote:
No matter how noob friendly the interface will become, there will still be a huge gap between us and the pros, simply becaues they have much stronger game sense. Why do you think savior and oov are so strong, it's their game sense not that they can macro and micro like every other pros. If you think any top foreigner has mechanics equivalent to Nada or any S-class pro, I think you are severely mistaken. I belive there are quiet of few top foreigners with APM higher then that of savior or oov. No foreign Terran can use SKTerran as effectively as Nada while macroing out of 9 raxes, the same could be said about July's muta micro, or savior's defiler usage. All the pros that I ever mentioned are savior and oov, why are you keep talking about nada?
Because he's a prime example? Just because you can't refute it means I shouldn't use him as an example?
I also mentioned July and Savior. I also doubt that in his prime foreigners came close to oov as well.
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Yes, because SC2 completely revolves around programers only. Geez you guys get over yourselfs... SC1 will always be here so you can showcase your 1sh2sh3sh4sh skills or whatever. Blizzard has -=PROMISED=- that SC2 will every bit of competitive as SC1, so why are you guys worrying over stupid shit like this? SC2 will focus the competitiveness more towards the actual units and other styles of gameplay, not in your showcase ability to click buildings...
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On May 21 2007 18:34 DenariusJay wrote:
Yes, because SC2 completely revolves around programers only. Geez you guys get over yourselfs... SC1 will always be here so you can showcase your 1sh2sh3sh4sh skills or whatever. Blizzard has -=PROMISED=- that SC2 will every bit of competitive as SC1, so why are you guys worrying over stupid shit like this? SC2 will focus the competitiveness more towards the actual units and other styles of gameplay, not in your showcase ability to click buildings...
People promise a lot of things (e.g. Bush) if you have faith that Blizzard will make a game you want that's fine and dandy, but with all these people who seem to support unlimited everything selection I think I should voice my opinion as well.
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i think the specifics like multiple building selection don't matter so much.
the main thing is that the game should be played at a speed that in mid/late game there's always more useful things to do than anybody can handle (even nada falters sometimes). this ensures that you're not just sitting around watching your units trudge across the screen (a la wc3).
if macroing took less time, then maybe you'd see more of other things -- like people executing 3 simultaneous storm drops while clearing mines, building supply, and stalling with their main army.
blizzard has thought about this, from pillars' posts in the other thread to the gameplay video commentary about ways skill differentials are rewarded. i do hope the requirement of being able to multitask at multiple locations on the map very quickly is kept in sc2 though, be it via macro chores or whatever. this keeps players in flow and gives them a clear goal to constantly try to improve towards
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On May 21 2007 18:39 Polemarch wrote:
i think the specifics like multiple building selection don't matter so much.
the main thing is that the game should be played at a speed that in mid/late game there's always more useful things to do than anybody can handle (even nada falters sometimes). this ensures that you're not just sitting around watching your units trudge across the screen (a la wc3).
if macroing took less time, then maybe you'd see more of other things -- like people executing 3 simultaneous storm drops while clearing mines, building supply, and stalling with their main army.
blizzard has thought about this, from pillars' posts in the other thread to the gameplay video commentary about ways skill differentials are rewarded. i do hope the requirement of being able to multitask at multiple locations on the map very quickly is kept in sc2 though, be it via macro chores or whatever. this keeps players in flow and gives them a clear goal to constantly try to improve towards
You see, that's precisely the problem, sure you can harass more or clear mine, drop, etc., etc but where's the macro?
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EPT
