EPTMultiple Building Selection - Page 4
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DenariusJay
United States11 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
Like the other way if you wanted 3 zeals and a templar your only option would be to either select all, hit z, then select one gate individually and cancel the zealot and replace it with a templar. Or to manually select 3 gates and then make 1 temp, but this wouldnt fit in with the playstyle too well considering most folks will probably want to key all similar buildings to one key. If you attempted to do the round robin thing in the middle of building other units the game would just choose the production structure that is next in terms of speed. Simple. Personally I think something regarding selecting all unit structures will be necessary, because Zerg players are going to be able to select all larvaes at once so OO; | ||
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nagash
Australia58 Posts
I think maybe the selection of multiple static defense structures is ok but unit producers is not. This would be interesting, focus firing your turrets! | ||
semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:45 red.venom wrote: A good solution to this IMO would be if you select multiple buildings for the unit queues to "round robin" through the buildings. So you select 4 gateways, hit Z 4 times and it queued one Zealot in each gate. It makes sense to me as a solution because it is simply more flexible and powerful than how imprecise pressing Z once and getting a zeal in each gate would be. Like the other way if you wanted 3 zeals and a templar your only option would be to either select all, hit z, then select one gate individually and cancel the zealot and replace it with a templar. Or to manually select 3 gates and then make 1 temp, but this wouldnt fit in with the playstyle too well considering most folks will probably want to key all similar buildings to one key. I still don't know how they would do this effectively for Zerg. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:46 nagash wrote: This would be interesting, focus firing your turrets! That's something I'd actually like to see. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5446 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:41 mahnini wrote: You see, that's precisely the problem, sure you can harass more or clear mine, drop, etc., etc but where's the macro? Isn't that macro? being able to control things on a grand scale? So before you are able to harrass someone while mass producing from buildings, now you are able to harrass someone from two different angles controlling two separate groups. The needing to build more units is not as important a factor, opening up the ability to execute multiple tactics >_< (edit: this post moves too fast... was originally below that post above) | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5446 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:47 semioldguy wrote: I still don't know how they would do this effectively for Zerg. Really? Maybe you don't understand what he meant then... In his way (which I think is awesome!) you select your 12 hatcheries in one hotkey, hit sd, first one builds 3 drones, then you hit sz and you build zerglings... etc. You don't have to manually select each hatchery, yet you still build units 'one at a time' sort of  Kudos red.venom... very smart. (edited a bit) | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:51 SoleSteeler wrote: Isn't that macro? being able to control things on a grand scale? So before you are able to harrass someone while mass producing from buildings, now you are able to harrass someone from two different angles controlling two separate groups. The needing to build more units is not as important a factor, opening up the ability to execute multiple tactics >_< (edit: this post moves too fast... was originally below that post above) I was talking about macro purely in the RTS sense, which is, as I understand it, resource management. What you are suggesting is to make SC2 WC3, just on a much more massive scale. 90% micro and 10% macro. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:55 SoleSteeler wrote: Really? Maybe you don't understand what he meant then... In his way (which I think is awesome!) you select your 12 hatcheries in one hotkey, hit sd, first one builds 3 drones, then you hit sz and you build zerglings... etc. You don't have to manually select each hatchery, yet you still build units 'one at a time' sort of Kudos red.venom... very smart. (edited a bit) Ahhh... now I see. That would work for me. I'm finished with the speculation/suggestion threads, or rather the whole S2 forum. I'll patiently wait and trust Blizzard. + Show Spoiler + and probably be back in this forum tomorrow | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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Servolisk
United States5241 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:16 Servolisk wrote: It's not as if it will be even used much by better players. It isn't even that useful IMO. In War3 I never used it... it is kind of noobish to macro the same unit at the same time. I really don't care about this feature, I'm just for improving interface in general. Selecting multiple buildings will hardly account for 60% of the game as some have said. Good point Servo. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17347 Posts
1. Look at it from the force commander's perspective: as a general or whatever you just say "I need 10 tanks" and your subordinates give them to you, you don't have to send orders to each of your factories separately, they just start doing what you want. 2. Multiple building selection can CHANGE macroing style, it won't get rid of it (believe me or not, even in wc3 macro plays a big role in winning games, especially with humans). Now to try and answer some issues you seem to have: - not limited unit selection: won't happen I think, the small boxes showing currently selected units status are pretty important (especially in wc3 when you have to draw back your heavily wounded units out of the massive battle, compare it to big muta fight where you don't see shit and just check this health boxes). Same goes for buildings. - zerg hatchery problem: I see 2 solutions here: 1. There won't be a hatchery but normal production buildings or whatever which would make them more similar to other races (the zerg have evolved) and which would make perfect sense (although it would take a part of the uniqueness). 2. When playing wc3 I can have as many buildings under one hotkey as units but I don't. People rarely have more than 2-3 buildings there and VERY rarely they're of different type (Lucifer for example has his ziggurats grouped with main, don't really know why, maybe for easier tower upgrades). Usually I keep the same buildings under one hotkey but: - if I would be terran I would just use different hotkeys for my factories with add-ons and without them - if I would be zerg and going muta/ling for example I would keep 2-3 hotkeys of hatcheries, 1 producing lings, 1 mutas and the other one for drones or whatever else I need (unless they changed it so you can tab between hatcheries if they're grouped under single hotkey). Also to add my thoughts on how would unit production work with multiple building selection: If you select 2+ buildings of the same type, let's say barracks, and press 'm', all of them will start to produce marines, if you press 'm','m' they'll start producing rines and put another one in queue and so on (it is of course, if your resources allow). I think that such changes would allow for much more dynamic gameplay. Also a short statement about all of that being spectator friendly: PEOPLE WANT TO SEE BATTLES, CRAZY MICRO AND SHIT, THEY DON'T WANT TO WATCH SOMEONE PRODUCE UNITS!!! That's what's spectator friendly, blood, explosions, shooting, sex, violence, action, unorthodox strategy. Can't you see that what's Blizzard trying to do is to take what's best in BOTH SC and WC3? It is a killer combination that would and WILL own all other RTSs. Edit: I think that red.venom's thoughts on that matter are very accurate, more than mine ^_^ | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5446 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:56 mahnini wrote: I was talking about macro purely in the RTS sense, which is, as I understand it, resource management. What you are suggesting is to make SC2 WC3, just on a much more massive scale. 90% micro and 10% macro. To me, that's not really ALL macro is. Really though, think about what I said: You are harrassing with a small mutalisk force, while also sending out some hydraling to kill an expansion. You're also managing a small drop of zerglings on his main in secret. Your simultaneously trying to micro some zerglings at one of your expansions to kill off some goons. Meanwhile back at your base, you are creating units effortlessly, allowing for a MUCH more entertaining game to both watch and play. Unless you REALLY do find clicking a building and queueing a unit entertaining. Or You are harrassing with a small mutalisk force, while you are creating units from your 12 hatcheries. You've blindly sent in a small hydraling force but you didn't notice the DTs cutting you to shit, etc. Or these things don't even happen at all because you're busy queueing units. I know, a bit of an extreme example here, but it's not too improbable the PROS who have great macro currently wouldn't be able to handle so many tasks like this Why is the selection and queueing of units such a necessary thing for many of you to show 'skill' in multi-tasking? For red.venom's idea, I love it too. To circumvent the problem he illustrates, people can always hotkey their 8 factories into two groups: 4 factories for tanks, 4 factories for vultures (edited a bit for clarity) | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On May 21 2007 19:37 SoleSteeler wrote: To me, that's not really ALL macro is. Really though, think about what I said: You are harrassing with a small mutalisk force, while also sending out some hydraling to kill an expansion. You're also managing a small drop of zerglings on his main in secret. Your simultaneously trying to micro some zerglings at one of your expansions to kill off some goons. Meanwhile back at your base, you are creating units effortlessly, allowing for a MUCH more entertaining game to both watch and play. Unless you REALLY do find clicking a building and queueing a unit entertaining. Or You are harrassing with a small mutalisk force, while you are creating units from your 12 hatcheries. You've blindly sent in a small hydraling force but you didn't notice the DTs cutting you to shit, etc. Or these things don't even happen at all because you're busy queueing units. I know, a bit of an extreme example here, but it's not too improbable the PROS who have great macro currently wouldn't be able to handle so many tasks like this Why is the selection and queueing of units such a necessary thing for many of you to show 'skill' in multi-tasking? For red.venom's idea, I love it too. To circumvent the problem he illustrates, people can always hotkey their 8 factories into two groups: 4 factories for tanks, 4 factories for vultures (edited a bit for clarity) The only reason that your first example is impressive is because we are looking at it still from a BW prospective. If the entire game would all come down to micro, what is the difference between being able to click fast with units and being able to click fast with buildings? Like I said before, it isn't so much that we want being able to be able to click faster a means to widen a skill gap, we want to force players to make split second decisions, to force them to take their attention off micro and focus on macroing calculate the cost of making reinforcements to the cost of losing that battle. The thing that made SC so special is because it had balance between micro and macro and the mechanical factors is one of the reasons why it requires so much practice and makes it a sport. So just because someone has practiced to become faster than you and you don't have the same amount of time to put into it, suddenly, you should be given a handicap? I'm not saying this because I am afraid of change, not because I think my time practicing BW would be wasted, but because I would like to see SC2 enjoy the same longevity that BW enjoys, and if unlimited selection makes the game "too easy", it will easily die out once casual gamers have had their fix. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17347 Posts
what is the difference between being able to click fast with units and being able to click fast with buildings? The units are moving? But seriously, you wrote: we want to force players to make split second decisions, to force them to take their attention off micro and focus on macroing calculate the cost of making reinforcements to the cost of losing that battle Have you ever thought that if you focus much more on micro in this situation you might not need to make any reinforcements and spend your resources on upgrades/tech or other stuff? Or that you can make your enemy need reinforcements much more than you? Go play some wc3, it will teach you to value every single piece of resources you gather, and from what I've seen in the gameplay videos you will really HAVE to focus more on micro because the tides of battle will be turning faster. | ||
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tec27
United States3701 Posts
On May 21 2007 18:45 red.venom wrote: A good solution to this IMO would be if you select multiple buildings for the unit queues to "round robin" through the buildings. So you select 4 gateways, hit Z 4 times and it queued one Zealot in each gate. It makes sense to me as a solution because it is simply more flexible and powerful than how imprecise pressing Z once and getting a zeal in each gate would be. Like the other way if you wanted 3 zeals and a templar your only option would be to either select all, hit z, then select one gate individually and cancel the zealot and replace it with a templar. Or to manually select 3 gates and then make 1 temp, but this wouldnt fit in with the playstyle too well considering most folks will probably want to key all similar buildings to one key. If you attempted to do the round robin thing in the middle of building other units the game would just choose the production structure that is next in terms of speed. Simple. Personally I think something regarding selecting all unit structures will be necessary, because Zerg players are going to be able to select all larvaes at once so OO; The round robin system is pretty much what is implemented now, as far as I can tell from the videos. And I must say, the more I think about it, the less threatening it seems. I'm averse to change as much as the next guy, but the difference between the round robin system and SC's current macro when you have 6 factories is about 5 button presses/clicks. Honestly, thats not going to ruin the game. If anything, it will free up hotkeys for doing other things, like microing things you normally wouldn't. | ||
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[Red]Spartan
Mongolia15 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On May 21 2007 20:02 Manit0u wrote: The units are moving? But seriously, you wrote: Have you ever thought that if you focus much more on micro in this situation you might not need to make any reinforcements? Or that you can make your enemy need reinforcements much more than you? Go play some wc3, it will teach you to value every single piece of resources you gather, and from what I've seen in the gameplay videos you will really HAVE to focus more on micro because the tides of battle will be turning faster. Yes, moving justifies disregarding hand speed for one thing and using hand speed as a means to remove another. :| That's just it. I don't want WC3, I DON'T WANT TO MICRO ALL THE TIME. If I did, I would be playing WC3. SC should be about micro AND MACRO. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
[QUOTE]On May 21 2007 18:56 mahnini wrote: Why is the selection and queueing of units such a necessary thing for many of you to show 'skill' in multi-tasking? [/QUOTE]have you never enjoyed watching a fpvod? honestly you're saying it was enjoyable purely because you could see the strategy you couldn't outside of fp, you're not astounded by their mouse grace and mutlitasking mindstate? to those of you who may think it's not right to be overpowered by mouse speed alone, i'd like to see you analyze a replay, and know what's going on in the proper detail. i don't think it's that common to mass game enough to develope sense or intriquette build order knowledge, etc, without having the technique to back it up. some people enjoy getting good at the game on a lower level mostly just through better macro and micro, and there's nothing wrong with that. they work for that skill that can beat your probably inadequet strategy anyway. that adds to the dynamics of the game. | ||
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DenariusJay
United States11 Posts
The newb will select 200 units and A click. The pro will do the same, but will 300APM his ass when the battle actually happens. 300 apm devoted to the actual battle will be far more entertaining then seeing it split between battle and building, IMO. Plus, with multi selection we will see bigger battles more common thus forcing the player to have to micro each big battle in order to come out the victor. Multi selection will not hinder craft2 in any way shape or form... it only Hinders SC1 cuz its wasn't designed for it. SC2 will be. | ||
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