EPTCommunity Update - January 22, 2018 - Page 5
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
On January 24 2018 02:47 Elentos wrote: It's not stalkers in a vacuum, it's a combination of buffed stalkers, buffed chargelots, nerfed mine drops etc. Even just the overall match-up winrates aside, the top Terrans themselves all have poor winrates against Protoss on the new patch in tournament matches. The Korean TvP meta at the moment involves lots of 2-base all-ins. Definite Examples and sources please? | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On January 23 2018 22:39 Marvel1 wrote: Why does P have 0.7 cd on micro intensive drops while Z can queue 4 overlords with banes and attack with his army and you are literally unable to defend your probes. I cannot comprehend mates Because you have almost zero time to react to disruptor drops targeting your army as Terran, you can at least see bane drops coming on the mini map and have time to pull probes/ reposition units. Disruptor drops can drop the disruptor out of vision range and kill 15+ supply of Terran bio units with Terran having only a second to react or lose a huge chunk of units. Bane dropes can't be used to do constant effecient trades with your opponents army. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
PvT is currently at 59% http://aligulac.com/periods/207/?page=1 For specific games, check any one of these: Classic v T Then compare the PvT winrates for top Protoss players (Classic, Stats, herO, etc) and TvP winrates for top Terrans (Inno, Maru, TY, etc). The Protoss players all have ~20% higher winrates on average. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 23 2018 23:59 MockHamill wrote: Well Carriers are too strong when massed in all matshups (especially when combined with HT/Tempest). The short term solution is to kill them before they get there (ie when the Carrier count is low). The better solution is probably some kind of massive protest outside of Blizzard HQ until they give in and balance Carriers. It's a combinaison of strength that make the skytoss unbeatable : Mass carriers can nearly beat everything alone, even corruptors. Add some void with charge and you kill corruptors so fast, so no way you can beat voids/carriers with full corruptors. Add high templar with storm just deal a enormous dmg, while the fight is already P favored. Feedback prevents use of mass caster like mass vipers for abduct/spores style or PB. Revelation on zerg army give full vision for toss, and Zerg army is much slower than toss while weaker. Tempests can also be build and counter mass spores style or broodlords while revelation provide full vision and zerg has no way not to take free dmg as tempest outrange everything. Not to mention protoss army is invisible lol thx to mother ship. Add archons that can hit ground and air with spash and +bio dmg. Chargelots/DT and warp/recall mecanism and it's so easy to kill Zerg base, so when Zerg is forced into some broodlords/corruptors the army can't defend all bases. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On January 23 2018 23:50 Geo.Rion wrote: Honest to god, non-trolling question: How the hell do you deal with Protoss lategame as zerg? If anything, hydras were somewhat underpowered against protoss lategame, and they get a nerf and no change to Skytoss, or storms or archons, or any units that are givin Z problems. It feels like zerg is on the clock against Protoss, and this change does nothing but reinforce that trend. I dont know how the win% are in the MU, what i do know is that Protoss lategame has no answers from the zerg, besides getting ridiculously ahead in the midgame. Dont have as much time as i used to for watching VODs, but i m struggling to find lategame ZVP wins nowadays, i feel the dynamic of the MU is really bad. The same way Terran deals with Zerg and Protoss late game, kill them before they get there. It's the answer for Terran Zerg have always said was totally fine so why can't it work for zerg? | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On January 24 2018 03:51 washikie wrote: The same way Terran deals with Zerg and Protoss late game, kill them before they get there. It's the answer for Terran Zerg have always said was totally fine so why can't it work for zerg? The problem is that its easier for Terran to kill Zerg before he gets lategame, than fir Zerg to kill Protoss. Especially when Blizzard nerfs the only viable midgsme composition which are Hydras at most. Now, only stupid Protoss doesn't turtle and go straight into air sending adepts ora zealots with warprisms to harras. It will be autowin for Protoss. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 24 2018 03:51 washikie wrote: The same way Terran deals with Zerg and Protoss late game, kill them before they get there. It's the answer for Terran Zerg have always said was totally fine so why can't it work for zerg? You re suggestin Terran cant beat zerg lategame? splitmap scenarios favor Terrans very heavily, granted, Zerg can fight back, unlike zvP, but mass ghost and lots of fortified positions is definitely +EV for Terrans. And as far as i can tell, terrans can win late-lategame even without those, albeit less likely | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 24 2018 04:54 Geo.Rion wrote: You re suggestin Terran cant beat zerg lategame? splitmap scenarios favor Terrans very heavily, granted, Zerg can fight back, unlike zvP, but mass ghost and lots of fortified positions is definitely +EV for Terrans. And as far as i can tell, terrans can win late-lategame even without those, albeit less likely Lategame TvZ favors Zerg just like lategame PvZ favors Protoss. Therefore, the burden is on Zerg to kill Protoss before lategame just like the burden is on Terran to kill Zerg before lategame. Zerg has the advantage of insta-remax in the lategame once both sides have huge banks. Protoss doesn't care about this since the Skytoss+Templar deathball can beat the shit out of Zerg several times over, but insta-remax works very well against Terran. Similarly, Protoss has mothership recall and nexus recall to teleport their big slow deathball around but Terran's deathball doesn't and is even slower because Tanks+Libs need to siege up. And most importantly, a lategame Protoss army exploits the lack of Zerg AA while a lategame Terran army is ground-based. It's not like Terran never beats Zerg or Zerg never beats Protoss, but the fact that lategame favors certain races over others is pretty obvious. Terrans with gosu ghost micro can land snipes and trade cost efficiently. Zergs with great positioning can abduct and pick off expensive tech units. And so on. But broadly speaking, lategame goes P > Z > T | ||
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Creager
Germany1962 Posts
On January 24 2018 04:54 Geo.Rion wrote: You re suggestin Terran cant beat zerg lategame? splitmap scenarios favor Terrans very heavily, granted, Zerg can fight back, unlike zvP, but mass ghost and lots of fortified positions is definitely +EV for Terrans. And as far as i can tell, terrans can win late-lategame even without those, albeit less likely Splitmap just doesn't happen anymore. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On January 24 2018 05:44 pvsnp wrote: Lategame TvZ favors Zerg just like lategame PvZ favors Protoss. Therefore, the burden is on Zerg to kill Protoss before lategame just like the burden is on Terran to kill Zerg before lategame. Zerg has the advantage of insta-remax in the lategame once both sides have huge banks. Protoss doesn't care about this since the Skytoss+Templar deathball can beat the shit out of Zerg several times over, but insta-remax works very well against Terran. Similarly, Protoss has mothership recall and nexus recall to teleport their big slow deathball around but Terran's deathball doesn't and is even slower because Tanks+Libs need to siege up. And most importantly, a lategame Protoss army exploits the lack of Zerg AA while a lategame Terran army is ground-based. It's not like Terran never beats Zerg or Zerg never beats Protoss, but the fact that lategame favors certain races over others is pretty obvious. Terrans with gosu ghost micro can land snipes and trade cost efficiently. Zergs with great positioning can abduct and pick off expensive tech units. And so on. But broadly speaking, lategame goes P > Z > T I wonder how Zerg can "kill before lategame" Protoss, when Blizz is nerfin Zerg's midgame. Should i make early allin every PvZ? | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
On January 24 2018 03:39 pvsnp wrote: PvT is currently at 59% http://aligulac.com/periods/207/?page=1 For specific games, check any one of these: Classic v T Then compare the PvT winrates for top Protoss players (Classic, Stats, herO, etc) and TvP winrates for top Terrans (Inno, Maru, TY, etc). The Protoss players all have ~20% higher winrates on average. lul, buddy linking a aligulac period that is less than a week in. a few weeks ago I saw it was like 57%, then evened out to 51%, haha. looking at past ones we have 51%, 52%, 52% ... | ||
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xenonn40
United States282 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 24 2018 07:09 youngjiddle wrote: lul, buddy linking a aligulac period that is only a week in. a few weeks ago I saw it was like 57%, then evened out to 51%, haha. looking at past ones we have 51%, 52%, 52% ... If you want a more detailed collection of stats: PvT for Nov/Dec was at 53%. You left out the first December period at 55%, and before that was 56%. Summing the last and current period (January games till now) gives us 363/667 games, or 54%. Currently, of course, PvT is at 59%. PvT for top pros (games and series): Stats: 81% and 92% Classic: 80% and 90% herO: 78% and 88% sOs: 75% and 83% Zest: 70% and 77% TvP for top pros (games and series): aLive: 57% and 66% Inno: 56% and 61% Maru: 52% and 61% Gumiho: 50% and 51% TY: 27% and 18% Obviously, this data is not perfect. If PvT was balanced we would expect some players to have advantages and others disadvantages. We would expect statistical noise randomly in favor of Protoss or Terran. A single top Protoss doing well or a single period favoring Protoss is perfectly normal for a balanced matchup. But when all the periods, all the pros, and all the data are pointing towards Protoss > Terran across the board, as they are right now, that's an indication that something is wrong with the matchup. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On January 24 2018 05:44 pvsnp wrote: Lategame TvZ favors Zerg just like lategame PvZ favors Protoss. Therefore, the burden is on Zerg to kill Protoss before lategame just like the burden is on Terran to kill Zerg before lategame. Zerg has the advantage of insta-remax in the lategame once both sides have huge banks. Protoss doesn't care about this since the Skytoss+Templar deathball can beat the shit out of Zerg several times over, but insta-remax works very well against Terran. Similarly, Protoss has mothership recall and nexus recall to teleport their big slow deathball around but Terran's deathball doesn't and is even slower because Tanks+Libs need to siege up. And most importantly, a lategame Protoss army exploits the lack of Zerg AA while a lategame Terran army is ground-based. It's not like Terran never beats Zerg or Zerg never beats Protoss, but the fact that lategame favors certain races over others is pretty obvious. Terrans with gosu ghost micro can land snipes and trade cost efficiently. Zergs with great positioning can abduct and pick off expensive tech units. And so on. But broadly speaking, lategame goes P > Z > T That's funny, how using ability when T does it become "gosu micro", but not when it's abduct or storm while it's exactly the same lol. Seen soO streaming and lost vs terran mass ghost on late game, he said "Terran imba". Late game is completly winnable for T vs Z right now. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
The problem is that it's just so much damn gas, especially if I'm playing hydra/ling/lurk. The new burrow speed upgrade for lurkers is fun as hell, but it's hard to find the spare gas to get it at a reasonable time. I guess since the predominant styles in both ZvP and ZvT is still hydra/ling/bling a nerf was warranted. The problem is that it kind of nerfs hydras into the ground (especially in ZvP). It's a very timing oriented unit. If you miss the window you're kind of almost better off making something else. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On January 24 2018 07:54 Tyrhanius wrote: That's funny, how using ability when T does it become "gosu micro", but not when it's abduct or storm while it's exactly the same lol. Seen soO streaming and lost vs terran mass ghost on late game, he said "Terran imba". Late game is completly winnable for T vs Z right now. ......... Did you even read my post? You are complaining that I am somehow bashing storm/abduct because I used synonymous adjectives? Terrans with gosu ghost micro can land snipes and trade cost efficiently. Zergs with great positioning can abduct and pick off expensive tech units. I used the term "great positioning" to describe abduct usage, because I didn't want to repeat myself and use "gosu micro" twice. Quibble over semantics if you like, but "great positioning" is not an insult and I wasn't bashing abduct/storm. And last I checked, neither abduct nor storm have a 1.43 second delay between click and cast, so no it's not exactly the same at all. You said soO bitches about Terran. I've seen Stats bitch about Zerg and Inno bitch about Protoss. Progamers are people too, they get frustrated like anyone else. And you say that lategame TvZ is winnable for Terran......It's not like Terran never beats Zerg is what I said. So basically, you complained about two things I never said, and then repeated what I said. Seriously man, at least read my post before you bash it. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
On January 23 2018 08:07 Solar424 wrote: Zerg masses one unit for 7 months: Nerf it to the ground. Terran masses one unit for 7 years: That's okay, they're the highest skilled race. User was temp banned for this post. What unit? Are you referring to the supply depot? I've never seen a successful bio-Terran player a-move. Or even split the army into 3 groups and a-move each. What do you mean by 'mass'? Marine-Marauder-Medivac-Mine is actually one of the most expensive compositions in terms of production time. It takes so many facilities and if you think about it: Supply Depot -> Barracks & Tech lab-> Factory & Ebay -> Starport It's clearly somewhere between a Tier 2 and Tier 3 composition. Plus, without micro skills and multitasking, Bio fails hard. | ||
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KR_4EVR
316 Posts
On January 24 2018 08:03 pvsnp wrote: ......... Did you even read my post? You are complaining that I am somehow bashing storm/abduct because I used synonymous adjectives? Terrans with gosu ghost micro can land snipes and trade cost efficiently. Zergs with great positioning can abduct and pick off expensive tech units. I used the term "great positioning" to describe abduct usage, because I didn't want to repeat myself and use "gosu micro" twice. Quibble over semantics if you like, but "great positioning" is not an insult and I wasn't bashing abduct/storm. And last I checked, neither abduct nor storm have a 1.43 second delay between click and cast, so no it's not exactly the same at all. You said soO bitches about Terran. I've seen Stats bitch about Zerg and Inno bitch about Protoss. Progamers are people too, they get frustrated like anyone else. And you say that lategame TvZ is winnable for Terran......It's not like Terran never beats Zerg is what I said. So basically, you complained about two things I never said, and then repeated what I said. Seriously man, at least read my post before you bash it. He's not arguing with you. He's just interjecting his own point: that ANY zerg can abduct well, whereas it truly takes "Gosu-level" micro for a Terran to use the Snipe ability effectively. | ||
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