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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 25 2018 16:24 engesser1 wrote: Mines should have a 'Stop firing button' like ghost has one 'hold fire/weapons fire'. That would be beyond broken. You would be unable to bait out mine shots with a single overseer/ling. It would be like those hold-fire-lurker traps except cheaper, expendable, and not tier 3. Plus mutas and pheonixes would be done for | ||
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engesser1
264 Posts
On January 25 2018 16:39 Fango wrote: That would be beyond broken. You would be unable to bait out mine shots with a single overseer/ling. It would be like those hold-fire-lurker traps except cheaper, expendable, and not tier 3. Plus mutas and pheonixes would be done for sweeeeeeet. | ||
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Gekk02
Switzerland50 Posts
I'm just joking about Terran players so arrogant. Enjoy watching ZvZ, ZvP, and PvP 90% of the time you tune into SC2 streams. Then wonder why viewership dwindles when 1/3 of the player base don't have enough players to emulate/cheer/whatever on streams. This is my main concern, there are hardly any terrans advancing in tournaments anymore except maybe Innovation. Balance is one thing, but it is just a shame we see less and less top terrans. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On January 25 2018 19:20 Gekk02 wrote: This is my main concern, there are hardly any terrans advancing in tournaments anymore except maybe Innovation. Balance is one thing, but it is just a shame we see less and less top terrans. As someone who vividly remembers the GomTvT era and what people were saying that time, Maybe Terran players are just worse? | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 25 2018 21:14 WaesumNinja wrote: As someone who vividly remembers the GomTvT era and what people were saying that time, Maybe Terran players are just worse? yeah, i also remember that time. Terran players were just so talented that 15/16 of the bracket happened to be Terrans. It was mostly just happenstance, also due to the campaign being terran only which resulted in many more pros chosing terrans | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
The raven seems really good now. I'm so excited to be using this unit against zerg. I know the auto turret harass used to be annoying, but having the auto turret makes the raven somewhat consistently useful and allows for raven openers. In the lategame, that anti armor missile seems great and probably has great synergy with bio. It could be the answer to ultras and broodlords and make Terran be somewhat more competitive in lategame against zerg and thus make bio more viable. I can see the Hydra change being a fine change, as zerg is actually quite dominant in the PvT match up. It's not too bad, it just makes the aggressive stuff come out a bit later. I wouldn't know if this ends up being a bad or a good change to be honest, I can see both changes. Next big design patch should probably focus on lategame. With the new ravens, TvZ lategame might not need much attention, but both PvT and PvZ lategame is just nonsense right now. Protoss lategame is just incredibly suppressive, and Terrans are dealing with it by not even considering lategame at all; most terran players play really aggressively and often don't really think about upgrades much, we even saw bunny pull the boys in a position where he was sorta even on supply and army. As others have pointed out, ZvP lategame is also really hard. Protoss just gets this insane deathball so Zerg is forced to close out the game early. If it does go lategame you get this really stale style with some broodlord infestor deathball that's just not trying to get stuff done. I personally hope they take a serious look at Protoss lategame. They have so many strengths in the lategame, it's off the charts really. Meanwhile, Terran has very little options in the lategame which just doesn't feel much fun. At some point the protoss deathball becomes almost unkillable. Also, I think the zerg lategame could use some attention. The broodlord style just seems to lead to split map situations with some insane air deathball. Maybe they could get more speed/health/attack damage in favor of spawning fewer broodlings; broodlings just make any ground based army fail to reach the broods which forces stale and boring (imo) air deathball vs air deathball games. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15866 Posts
On January 25 2018 21:14 WaesumNinja wrote: As someone who vividly remembers the GomTvT era and what people were saying that time, Maybe Terran players are just worse? haha during BL/Infestor era Zerg players said Zerg players are just better too and of course during the blink era protoss players were much better. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On January 25 2018 21:14 WaesumNinja wrote: As someone who vividly remembers the GomTvT era and what people were saying that time, Maybe Terran players are just worse? How can you say that with a straight face | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:25 Charoisaur wrote: haha during BL/Infestor era Zerg players said Zerg players are just better too and of course during the blink era protoss players were much better. Yes they did, but in case you missed it, they were doing that only as a snarky reference to what Terrans had been saying. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Unfortunately, Blizzard has always tried to make the balance so the top Protoss and Zerg player can win just as much (since it looks better from an e-sport perspective). If the game was actually balanced Terran would win more at the very top level simply because Terran have better top players compared to the other races. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:48 MockHamill wrote: If you look at objectively the top 5 Terran has always been better than the top 5 Protoss and top 5 Zerg player skill wise. It is nothing strange about this, if you have a very small sample of top players it very unlikely that their skill level would be exactly even. Unfortunately, Blizzard has always tried to make the balance so the top Protoss and Zerg player can win just as much (since it looks better from an e-sport perspective). If the game was actually balanced Terran would win more at the very top level simply becouse Terran have better top players compared to the other races. I can't believe I'm still reading this. Just a few post after I mocked this disillusion people were having 5+ years ago someone posts it again. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:48 MockHamill wrote: If you look at objectively the top 5 Terran has always been better than the top 5 Protoss and top 5 Zerg player skill wise. It is nothing strange about this, if you have a very small sample of top players it very unlikely that their skill level would be exactly even. Unfortunately, Blizzard has always tried to make the balance so the top Protoss and Zerg player can win just as much (since it looks better from an e-sport perspective). If the game was actually balanced Terran would win more at the very top level simply because Terran have better top players compared to the other races. "objectively" | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:48 MockHamill wrote: If you look at objectively the top 5 Terran has always been better than the top 5 Protoss and top 5 Zerg player skill wise. It is nothing strange about this, if you have a very small sample of top players it very unlikely that their skill level would be exactly even. Unfortunately, Blizzard has always tried to make the balance so the top Protoss and Zerg player can win just as much (since it looks better from an e-sport perspective). If the game was actually balanced Terran would win more at the very top level simply because Terran have better top players compared to the other races. I am not even saying this couldn't be true in theory, but you will have a hard time proving it  Also "actual balance" doesn't exist if you have an asymmetrical game with different races. Sc2 was through most of its lifespan very well balanced, balanced enough that you could win if you were the better player. People just loved to shit on David. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On January 25 2018 23:52 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am not even saying this couldn't be true in theory, but you will have a hard time proving it Also "actual balance" doesn't exist if you have an asymmetrical game with different races. Sc2 was through most of its lifespan very well balanced, balanced enough that you could win if you were the better player. People just loved to shit on David. Well has Protoss ever had a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Nope. Has Zerg ever have a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Maybe Life but he turned out to be a cheater that killed off pro league so I do not think he counts. If you look at the actual gameplay at the very highest level almost all beautiful and really impressive moves belongs to Terran players. Zerg and Protoss rarely do something truly impressive even if they are really good players, of course. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
If you look at the actual gameplay at the very highest level almost all beautiful and really impressive moves belongs to Terran players. Zerg and Protoss rarely do something truly impressive even if they are really good players, of course. This only shows your bias towards certain things while neglecting everything else. Starcraft is a game with many different tasks and skills to master and while it is probably fair to say that not every race has the exact same priorities there, every race can still bring up players with a wide difference in styles. Personally i think the notion that only terran players do impressive things is laughable. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On January 26 2018 00:05 MockHamill wrote: Well has Protoss ever had a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Nope. Has Zerg ever have a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Maybe Life but he turned out to be a cheater that killed off pro league so I do not think he counts. If you look at the actual gameplay at the very highest level almost all beautiful and really impressive moves belongs to Terran players. Zerg and Protoss rarely do something truly impressive even if they are really good players, of course. Gameplay is subjective, and what I call beautiful and impressive you might not call beautiful and impressive or vice versa. | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
On January 26 2018 00:05 MockHamill wrote: Well has Protoss ever had a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Nope. Has Zerg ever have a player as good as MVP or Innovation: Maybe Life but he turned out to be a cheater that killed off pro league so I do not think he counts. If you look at the actual gameplay at the very highest level almost all beautiful and really impressive moves belongs to Terran players. Zerg and Protoss rarely do something truly impressive even if they are really good players, of course. Point 1, subjectivity: When I am thinking about beautiful moves, protoss play is dominant. When I think about impressive moves there are a lot of zerg and some protoss that I think of. My favourite day of GSL was March 12, 2014. An all protoss group. I had very low expectations since PvP was the most boring match up. The plays that day were very impressive. The micro was beautiful. The builds were deliberate. Terran is the race I generally enjoy watching the most. Terran is also the race with the least amount of top notch games. MockHamill, your opinions are not facts. Please stop writing as if they are! You wrote "objectively" but the complete sentence was subjective. Skill can be so many things and the things you value are not the same as the things I value. Point 2, argumentation: The way you argued that Life was not skilled at the game had nothing to do with his skill at the game. Life did not cheat to win games. He won the games without cheating. He did cheat, but his skill is unaffected by that. What do you man by "good player"? INno has had up and downs, being great at times but good at others. He has even had times when he was close to second tier. Looking at the highs: NesTea was great in 2011. The man that is called BossToss, MC, had an era of greatness. Rain and Dear have both looked unstoppable. Zest in the first half of 2016 was amazing. Looking at consistency: soO has been relevant more consistently than INnoVation. soO has performed pretty much all the time since HotS came out. INnoVation have not even qualified for code S more than 5 times in a row. That is as many as HuK. PartinG managed to get to the round of 16 twice as much as that. MVP had 4 years in the GSL. His code S streak was during 3 years. herO has had a shorter streak when counting number of code S qualifications, but that streak has been during 4 years. Usually there is a correlation between the amount of practitioners and who are the best. Looking at GSL statistics over race distribution we see that Terran has been the most common race in the early days. MVP and INnoVation are a product of this. I used GSL statistics because they were easily accessible. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:48 MockHamill wrote: If you look at objectively the top 5 Terran has always been better than the top 5 Protoss and top 5 Zerg player skill wise. It is nothing strange about this, if you have a very small sample of top players it very unlikely that their skill level would be exactly even. Unfortunately, Blizzard has always tried to make the balance so the top Protoss and Zerg player can win just as much (since it looks better from an e-sport perspective). If the game was actually balanced Terran would win more at the very top level simply because Terran have better top players compared to the other races. Just when you thought hallmark of quality stuff like this would unironically only be posted in the b.net forum. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
I think everyone can agree on this. So if we watch major korean tournaments wins (GSL, OSL, ..) over the years of SC2, that's nearly a perfect 1/1/1 repartition between races. But if you watch the forein scene that's a whole different story. Most of the wins are Z, then P, and then, the disappearing terran race. ( with now only 1 top terran, Major, and one relevant, uthermy ). If only Blizard balanced for the foreign scene without watching the korean one, the game would be dramatically different. This could either support the upmonentioned argument of a better top-terran terran players pool, or support the argument of skill-based balance (i.e balance is not the same at different skills levels, and the top korean one was one step ahead the top foreigner one. ), or a mix of the two ( witch imo seems close the the reality for most of SC2 time ). If we watch back the KR pros names during early SC2 now... they were in fact way way more good terrans than good toss or zergs (in toss, only MC seems good, the second best is like InCa, lol. No wonders why only MC won toss titles during this time ). Then we had more and more good zergs during WoL. Then the kespa fusion brings good players for all races... but most notably an protoss armada. Now, after all the retirements, we have a very good Terran pool, a good Protoss one, but a weak zerg one (with, except SoO, very inconsistent players like Rogue, Dark, ..) Meanwhile in ForeignLand we have an armada of (very) good zergs, 1 top toss (Neeb) and some good ones (Showtime, etc), and one top Terran. If only Blizzard balanced only the foreign scene, zerg would be f***ng hard nerfed to hell and Terran buffed a lot, so maybe foreign zergs should be merciful to koreans (terrans) =) The second best argument to support this claim, while a bit troll-esque, is still an intrigant fact : mid-tier terrans switching to toss.... became the best tosses.Classic and Neeb ofc. And to my knowing it's the only successful path of trans-racialism in SC2. (except Scarlett in Toss :D ) There are also frequents rumors about best-random-GM-player on korean server always being one of the top terrans offracing (well, even if we don't count Gumiho ) since MC. | ||
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Creager
Germany1884 Posts
On January 25 2018 22:42 WaesumNinja wrote: Yes they did, but in case you missed it, they were doing that only as a snarky reference to what Terrans had been saying. No, they did not. Bias isn't something that is exclusive to Terran players, so don't make a fool of yourself. | ||
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