EPTRogue lost vs Bunny, Dark lost vs SoS, impact and solar vs Innovation, byul lost vs Zest, Soo lost vs Classic and gumiho.
That's clear Zerg isn't OP in any MU.
StarCraft II Balance Update – December 18 - Page 5
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Rogue lost vs Bunny, Dark lost vs SoS, impact and solar vs Innovation, byul lost vs Zest, Soo lost vs Classic and gumiho. That's clear Zerg isn't OP in any MU. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On December 24 2017 17:28 Tyrhanius wrote: Just a reminder that : Rogue lost vs Bunny, Dark lost vs SoS, impact and solar vs Innovation, byul lost vs Zest, Soo lost vs Classic and gumiho. That's clear Zerg isn't OP in any MU. Generally speaking, individual sets are fairly poor indicators of balance. What you hope to see is a trend of top players from the skill level of top foreigners to the top of Koreans and seeing generally where the distribution lies. Although foreigners are worse than the top Koreans, you can still see some indication of balance. Individual sets can always have explanations. For instance, Dark made a lot of silly mistakes versus sOs and should have won 3-0 or 3-1, Impact and Solar are below the skill level of Innovation, Byul is worse than Zest, and the only real surprise is Rogue versus Bunny. Gumiho's style works well against soO, and Classic has always been a top Protoss. This isn't to say that the game is or isn't relatively balanced just that pulling from a few matches does not indicate balance and that individual sets always have explanations. I can say that Neeb has lost 1-2, 2-3, and 2-3 against Scarlett in their last three sets, who he 3-1ed quite convincingly only a few months prior. As Neeb is one of the best if not the best foreigner, and Scarlett is not, obviously this means PvZ is imbalanced. Or, perhaps Scarlett's form went up and Neeb's went down. Or, perhaps Scarlett's style just works better against Neeb. Or, perhaps the matchup isn't fully balanced. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Results of highest level are the best indicators of balance rather than thousands game of john the Terran vs michZerg where the issue is just the level of the two dude and nothing related to balance. Bunny beating Rogue with a convincing 3-0 means Terran race have the weapon to beat the best Zerg of the world so every other zergs right now in this patch in this actual meta. Then a T can lose 1000-0 vs a Zerg, and say " look the winrate, T so weak needs buffs asap" as we see that 3 times a day, he is just a whiner who lost because he is just bad. Balance shouldn't be changed because of this player, if he wants to win more he just needs to open bunny's stream and learns. Of course he will keep pretending these games are poor indicators of balance because "not enough games", but the truth he is ignoring facts that don't support his whine and while they are less numerous they are relevant to speak of balance while his thousands games are just "the other is better than him" | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On December 24 2017 18:16 hiroshOne wrote: The thing is that since 4.0 every time i see tournament with korean players, online cups, there is none won by Zerg. Protoss dominates. Korea is the best place to determine balance as we got the best players out there. So sorry dude, but clearly Zerg isn't OP nowadays. I think that all recent nerfs to Zerg and buffs in other races were overkill for Z. As always, when new patch is coming Zerg has his 5 minites, but then the whine from T and P players forces Blizzard to use the nerf hammer. Same story every time. Patch 3.14.0 Roach and infestor burrowed undetected movement is much more visible Patch 3.8.0 Broodlord range decreased from 11 to 10 November 28 balance update Infestors Can no longer cast Fungal Growth while burrowed. Fungal Growth radius reduced from 2.5 to 2.25. Infested Terran cast range reduced from 9 to 7. As far as I could tell, these are all the nerfs to Zerg in all of LotV. It's quite the nerf hammer indeed. Actually, what I noticed was that they've been relatively hands off with regards to nerfs/buffs during LotV. Second, you say The thing is that since 4.0 every time i see tournament with korean players, online cups, there is none won by Zerg. The problem with this statement is that while it may be true for you, it may not be true for other people. Other people, watching different tournaments, with different players, may see something different depending on their biases. I looked at a lot of results with KvK in online tournaments since the update. You are correct that few tournaments are being won by Zergs. However, there have been relatively few online tournaments since the update. With the year winding down, this is the downtime for a lot of people. Second, looking at the players, the top Zerg players play less often than the top Protoss and Terran. For instance, you'll often see Gumiho, Innovation, Zest, and Stats play in these tournaments, whereas Dark, Rogue, and soO play less often. Solar plays a lot as do Impact, Losira, and TRUE, but none of those players are really considered the best zerg players. Some things that do stand out, however, are the BTSL Special and the ONPOONG ultimate battles. Dark has won bo11 versus many top players (and I believe is currently undefeated), and in the BTSL, there are currently 3 zergs and 1 protoss in semifinals. Again, all this information is not necessarily to say that Zerg is OP (that point is debateable) but that the data points that you use are very critical. Depending on the point of view, you can come to two very different perspectives. Note: I left out the IEM and WESG qualifiers as the WESG qualifiers were bo1 for way too long and then bo3 at the end, and those aren't the greatest for determining balance, and the Zerg losses in IEM were already covered. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
Now. I don't say that T or P are overpowered as fuck in vsZ matchups. I'm just saying that this whole "Zerg OP" shit is ridiculous. The same goes with- Zerg is OP vs BIO but not OP vs mech and those are two different matchups. It's fucking stupid statement. Both are same matchup- TvZ. So when i play Roach/Ravager or Hydra/Ling/Bane or Broodlord/Infestor vs Terran, those are different matchups? Plz. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 24 2017 19:31 hiroshOne wrote: Oh they play dude, they play but they are knocked out of those online tournaments quickly enough. Now. I don't say that T or P are overpowered as fuck in vsZ matchups. I'm just saying that this whole "Zerg OP" shit is ridiculous. The same goes with- Zerg is OP vs BIO but not OP vs mech and those are two different matchups. It's fucking stupid statement. Both are same matchup- TvZ. So when i play Roach/Ravager or Hydra/Ling/Bane or Broodlord/Infestor vs Terran, those are different matchups? Plz. Protoss ended the previous aligulac balance period with a 41.5% win rate against Zerg. That's worse than PvT ever was using the same metrics. So no, Zerg OP is NOT ridiculous. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
Hirosh > well, from a Terran player perspective, mech/bio really feel like playing two different races. Zerg is OP vs T bio is simply a shortcut to say the actual meta in TvZ bio is Z-favored. TvZ may be balance when playing mech. I simply don't want to play (or watch that much) mech, that's not the Terran race i enjoy. If terran was balanced by playing avilo-style, it still would be stupid bullshit design, et nothing to do with the terran race we love. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 25 2017 00:55 xongnox wrote: Foreigners Zergs seems OP at foreigner level and win everything except Neeb/Special, but that is not the case at all in Korea. That's way we get theses stats on aligulac but no korean zerg win. Balance is not the same at different level + sometimes Korean meta differ significantly (imo koreans Z should watch mores foreign ones... ) The whole "Zergs never win in Korea" should be a meme at this point with how dumb and inaccurate it is. It wasn't true in 2016 when people were saying it. It wasn't true in 2017 when people were saying it. It almost certainly won't be true when people say it in 2018. Which tournaments played over the last few weeks featuring the upper echelon of Korean Zergs show the race struggling? -Dark got out of the WESG SK qualifiers. -Zergs are doing well in the BaseTrade Star League (3/4 semifinalists are Zerg). -IEM qualifiers were less impressive, but I don't see any result there that isn't within the realm of normal variance. (That includes Rogue losing to Bunny. It is hard to stay motivated after winning $300,000 and Bunny is probably the most underrated player in Korea at the moment) -I don't see any recent Olimoleagues (which often only has a smattering of the best players) and I'm not familiar with any other minor tournaments that has a decent representation of top Koreans. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On December 24 2017 18:30 Tyrhanius wrote: I don't say they're underpowered, i say they're not OP like Terran/Protoss used to spam here. Results of highest level are the best indicators of balance rather than thousands game of john the Terran vs michZerg where the issue is just the level of the two dude and nothing related to balance. Bunny beating Rogue with a convincing 3-0 means Terran race have the weapon to beat the best Zerg of the world so every other zergs right now in this patch in this actual meta. Then a T can lose 1000-0 vs a Zerg, and say " look the winrate, T so weak needs buffs asap" as we see that 3 times a day, he is just a whiner who lost because he is just bad. Balance shouldn't be changed because of this player, if he wants to win more he just needs to open bunny's stream and learns. Of course he will keep pretending these games are poor indicators of balance because "not enough games", but the truth he is ignoring facts that don't support his whine and while they are less numerous they are relevant to speak of balance while his thousands games are just "the other is better than him" I didn't see Bunny vs Rogue but it's a single match so not enough to conclude much. Especially since Rogue just won Blizzcon, hard to know if he still practices seriously or not. From the recent tournaments I watched and a bit of ladder, zerg doesn't seem especially OP, but protoss feels strong atm. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 24 2017 19:31 hiroshOne wrote: Oh they play dude, they play but they are knocked out of those online tournaments quickly enough. Now. I don't say that T or P are overpowered as fuck in vsZ matchups. I'm just saying that this whole "Zerg OP" shit is ridiculous. The same goes with- Zerg is OP vs BIO but not OP vs mech and those are two different matchups. It's fucking stupid statement. Both are same matchup- TvZ. So when i play Roach/Ravager or Hydra/Ling/Bane or Broodlord/Infestor vs Terran, those are different matchups? Plz. It's not that Zerg is OP vs. bio, it's that bio is just weak. On top of being weak, bio has been the standard style for so long that I think pro level Zerg's are just flat out good at fighting it, years and years of practice and such. While I do agree with, "So when i play Roach/Ravager or Hydra/Ling/Bane or Broodlord/Infestor vs Terran, those are different matchups?" to a degree Terran is alot more binary. Expansion timings, move outs, compositions, everything is way different for mass factory vs. mass barracks. Still, Zerg isn't OP, there has been major changes that would undoubtedly affect win rates and those things take time to iron out. Protoss seems strong as hell though with the buffed stalker, Gateway armies are pretty fearsome at the moment. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On December 25 2017 03:20 Beelzebub1 wrote: Still, Zerg isn't OP, there has been major changes that would undoubtedly affect win rates and those things take time to iron out. Protoss seems strong as hell though with the buffed stalker, Gateway armies are pretty fearsome at the moment. Let the meta settle when it is Zerg OP, but nerf Protoss immediately to the ground. Sounds about right. | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden591 Posts
On December 24 2017 19:23 FrkFrJss wrote: Patch 3.14.0 Roach and infestor burrowed undetected movement is much more visible Patch 3.8.0 Broodlord range decreased from 11 to 10 November 28 balance update Infestors Can no longer cast Fungal Growth while burrowed. Fungal Growth radius reduced from 2.5 to 2.25. Infested Terran cast range reduced from 9 to 7. As far as I could tell, these are all the nerfs to Zerg in all of LotV. It's quite the nerf hammer indeed. Actually, what I noticed was that they've been relatively hands off with regards to nerfs/buffs during LotV. I like that you are collecting nerfs like this, but there is one thing there that shouldn't be. The fungal nerf from 2.5 to 2.25 was made directly after a buff from 2.0 to 2.5 that got partly reverted. It is actually a buff from 2.0 to 2.25. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
Burrowed fungal was a big mistake from the balance team, and it was really cheesy sometimes. I can't believe that they are trying to say that zerg is weak. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On December 24 2017 17:28 Tyrhanius wrote: Just a reminder that : Rogue lost vs Bunny, Dark lost vs SoS, impact and solar vs Innovation, byul lost vs Zest, Soo lost vs Classic and gumiho. That's clear Zerg isn't OP in any MU. Just a reminder that in that very same qualifier, exactly one Terran won exactly one series that was not a TvT (Gumiho beat soO). Every other time a Terran played a Protoss or Zerg, they lost. So TY, Maru, Inno, etc all failed to win a series over any Protoss or Zerg (mostly Protoss). Oh, and both qualifying matches were PvP, which obviously led to both qualified players being Protoss. Before the qualifier I was thinking Protoss needed some help, afterward I'm thinking some nerfs might be in order, especially with PvT. The IEM qualifier didn't have much in the way of PvZ, though I hear Protoss still struggles quite a bit there. Regardless of the actual balance state. we most likely won't get any changes until around January 5th or so, what with the holiday season. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On December 25 2017 03:44 Boggyb wrote: Let the meta settle when it is Zerg OP, but nerf Protoss immediately to the ground. Sounds about right. I don't think ZvP is perfect, but that is a match up that has always hinged on a razor edge with one race generally getting a meta that favors them for awhile and then a new style of play shifts it back into their favor. If the trend continues I'd change my tune though, anything below 45% is clearly underpowered, it's not like Protoss isn't doing fine and dandy vs. Terran at the moment or anything. I'm sure something like making Overlord drops come a bit later/be more expensive would be appropriate, maybe a slight Hydra nerf. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On December 25 2017 11:47 StarscreamG1 wrote: I'm a random player. Can anybody still play bio versus Zerg? With these "visible" mines? bio is not great vs zerg but honestly the problem is not the mine nerf the main impact of that nerf was on tvp. In tvz the meta for zerg is lingbane hydra, mines were terrible vs lbh before the nerf so nerfing them changed nothing you have to go tanks vs lbh. the problem for bio in tvz is that its not good enough at fighting lbh to stop zerg from reaching ultras. Bio is realy bad once zerg gets ultras so if you cant stop them from reaching ultras why bother gong it. TvZ mech is alright though so its not like terran cant win games, ocasionaly you can win games wtih bio to buts its very map deppendent. But bottom line is that the mine nerf is not all that important when it comes to bio viability in tvz what is important is the incredible strength of lbh in the mid game and also the raven nerf and the strength of queens at shutting down any kind of air based harass. | ||
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