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On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at.
I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units.
Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive.
They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers.
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Carriers ruin team games completely. I know the game is balanced for 1v1, but they're too strong in 1v1 too if you're allowed to get there. PLEASE nerf!
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I wouldn't go as far as LSN recommends (interceptor dmg 1x6 -> 2x3),
I previously was thinking decreasing damage 1x6 -> 1x5, but increasing attack speed by 20%, so the dps against zero base armor would be the same, but the carrier would be heavily nerfed against armored units (corruptor, thor, bc)
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On December 22 2017 06:35 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at. I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units. Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive. They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers.
You could just suggest to remove the carrier from the game you know.
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On December 22 2017 10:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 06:35 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at. I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units. Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive. They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers. You could just suggest to remove the carrier from the game.you know.
That would make him look less reasonable, even though it is effectively the same suggestion.
I hate skytoss as much as the next guy, but there are subtler ways to resolve the issue than deleting carriers outright. And right now PvZ is very much Zerg favored, so while it is true that carriers are a problem, they're a minor problem in the scale of the overall matchup.
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Remove Mothership.
Please.
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On December 22 2017 10:40 bela.mervado wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as LSN recommends (interceptor dmg 1x6 -> 2x3),
I previously was thinking decreasing damage 1x6 -> 1x5, but increasing attack speed by 20%, so the dps against zero base armor would be the same, but the carrier would be heavily nerfed against armored units (corruptor, thor, bc)
Actually, each intercepter does 2x5 anyways, so armor already heavily affects carriers. It's why they're so bad against upgraded corruptors, because corruptors have 2 natural armor.
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Most people don't get that the problem with the carrier is the same problem than with the tempest back in the days : the range.
Carriers may have a 8 "engage" range, but interceptors have a 14 max leash range, meaning that the carrier can virtually kite any unit in the game. Add storms to that, and skytoss will always be problematic.
I actually have no problem with the carrier being strong in frontal fights, and winning against most compositions en masse. If you manage to mass a 350/250 capital ship, you should be rewarded with a powerful firepower. But coupling strong "frontal" fighting power with huge range/kiting is the reason why tempest+HT was the best comp in the game late at the end of HOTS.
Now add the fact that interceptors heavily mess with the opponent's units AI, and you'll get why the carrier is problematic.
From there, there's three ways to look at this :
- the problem is that the carrier is too strong in frontal fights
- the problem is that the carrier can kite pretty much anything
- the interceptors mess with the units AI
To each one, we could come up with structural nerfs :
- make the interceptors weaker, or tighten their flight pattern so that AoE anti air is more effective against carriers, or lessen the carrier's HP pool
- limit the interceptor leash range to 10, which would allow the carrier to retreat from corruptors, hydras, marines, but still be suceptible to thors/abducts and vikings
- make the carriers have a higher priority than their interceptors
Since the last option could actually be wacky ingame or an unwanted buff, i think that tightening the interceptor's flight patterns and limiting their leash range to 12 or 11 would be a good start.
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On December 22 2017 12:31 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 10:40 bela.mervado wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as LSN recommends (interceptor dmg 1x6 -> 2x3),
I previously was thinking decreasing damage 1x6 -> 1x5, but increasing attack speed by 20%, so the dps against zero base armor would be the same, but the carrier would be heavily nerfed against armored units (corruptor, thor, bc) Actually, each intercepter does 2x5 anyways, so armor already heavily affects carriers. It's why they're so bad against upgraded corruptors, because corruptors have 2 natural armor.
wow you are right, i feel stupid to not to have double checked the actual damage T_T shame on me -.-
still, i dont feel that corruptors are actually actually a good counter for a nice carrier heavy endgame toss army (some templars/archons below carriers, or voids+mothership support).
i had mixed success with neural parasite, and the new infested terran seems to be quite strong, but it's not that hard to make a game ending mistake with these fragile caster guys (good opponents can feedback, and in team games there will be an other team member with the carriers so the infestors can melt in a blink of an eye).
i know it can be hard even for pros (thinking about Rogue vs Neeb), but honestly i don't care much about pros. i'd like my experience be a nice one. i often work my ass to have creep everywhere, have good vision, know where the opponent teams are, fight against very nice blink stalkers, deflect mmm drops, and finally i see my 29 apm 2 base teammate turtle up to 8+ carriers and a-move to win the game for us.
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On December 22 2017 10:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 06:35 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at. I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units. Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive. They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers. You could just suggest to remove the carrier from the game you know.
I guess broodlords which don't hit air units are useless right ?
You can adjust the cost or the dmg or the building time, or buff the voids/tempest phoenix if they're too weak, but as shown from all this years, you can't balance a unit that is sufficient from itself and good vs everything like carriers.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 16:30 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 10:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 22 2017 06:35 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at. I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units. Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive. They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers. You could just suggest to remove the carrier from the game you know. I guess broodlords which don't hit air units are useless right ? You can adjust the cost or the dmg or the building time, or buff the voids/tempest phoenix if they're too weak, but as shown from all this years, you can't balance a unit that is sufficient from itself and good vs everything like carriers.
Broodlord is a different type of unit(add to that carrier legacy).
If you want to change the carrier into an AG tempest, feel free to suggest it, but don't look for others to agree with you. Blizzard had to revert one change already because people actually like carriers.
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On December 22 2017 21:23 deacon.frost wrote:
because people actually like carriers.
People playing with carriers like carriers. Not people playing against them.
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T plater here - TvP perspective only. I think most of the Protoss arsenal is in a good state (oracles and adepts are in a better spot IMO and shield batteries are effective early game but not large armies) the main exceptions are the strength of the warp-prism and blink stalkers. I think to give the prism a 1-1.5s delay in transitioning in and out of pylon mode would be worth testing (think siege tank/liberator siege time) and possibly looking at either the cost of blink / its cooldown or its travel range would be good ways of avoiding a nerf to stalker damage because it's just too easy to burst things down and get away atm.
I think Carriers + MS when combined are a bit OP but I feel like whatever your race, if you let P get away with massing carriers and don't either overwhelm them, snipe/chip away at them or pull them out of position then it's not surprising when the strongest unit of the most expensive race ends up rolling you.. Definitely can be pretty hard when P already has a strong ground army with splash.
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On December 22 2017 21:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 16:30 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 22 2017 10:43 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 22 2017 06:35 Tyrhanius wrote:On December 20 2017 23:04 MockHamill wrote:On December 20 2017 22:01 LoneYoShi wrote:On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast. Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch on random team 3v3 games at diamond level ? Well to be fair Carriers are too strong in 1v1 too. But they are completly OP in team games and basically wreck team game experiences. Since Carriers are too strong in TvP, ZvP and even PvP plus completly broken in team games I think this should be the next thing Blizzard looks at. I think carriers shouldn't be able to attack air, only ground units. Protoss have already a lot of air units : voids vs armored, phoenix vs light, tempest vs massive. They can protect their carriers with voids for example and it will stop them to just make only carriers. You could just suggest to remove the carrier from the game you know. I guess broodlords which don't hit air units are useless right ? You can adjust the cost or the dmg or the building time, or buff the voids/tempest phoenix if they're too weak, but as shown from all this years, you can't balance a unit that is sufficient from itself and good vs everything like carriers. Broodlord is a different type of unit(add to that carrier legacy). If you want to change the carrier into an AG tempest, feel free to suggest it, but don't look for others to agree with you. Blizzard had to revert one change already because people actually like carriers.
Add "i like this unit" to every imbalance units and we would never have had any patches from now.
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May I ask what scenario makes disruptors still useful?
does anyone systematically builds colossi and or disruptors?
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On December 23 2017 07:33 260Vazi wrote:
May I ask what scenario makes disruptors still useful?
does anyone systematically builds colossi and or disruptors?
Lol? I see colossi in almost every TvP.
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I think carriers + high templars combo is at least the same if not worse than broodlords + infestors. Don't you guys see it??? Both are ridiculous hard to beat and both STAY FOR TOO LONG.I am sure as fuck that blizzard acknowledged this but they refused to fix because the only one different between skytoss and skyzerg is skytoss isn't a common thing in pro scene to the point it could ruin the whole game like how broodlords + infestors era has ruined WOL. But raven got redesigned despite mass raven's a myth in pro scene for a reason right??? Am i right guys???
So i still have hope in this balance team  And i would choose carrier over high templar for getting addressed all day.
Beside that the rest of protoss is fine not sure why people complain about gateway units be able to dumpster bios tho... Blizzard should've done that wayyyy before hots :D
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mass raven was played in pro games a long time ago (in HoTs, before turrets buff, but seeker missile and PDD was powerfull ), on some TvZ split-maps, after a mech opening.
JackONeill in #68 got it right. The two main issues with carriers are the range and the AI brain-fuck (and then, ofc, templars).
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On December 24 2017 07:27 xongnox wrote:
mass raven was played in pro games a long time ago (in HoTs, before turrets buff, but seeker missile and PDD was powerfull ), on some TvZ split-maps, after a mech opening.
JackONeill in #68 got it right. The two main issues with carriers are the range and the AI brain-fuck (and then, ofc, templars).
That's not the timeline i've mentioned... I means in this year where zerg has the upper hand in late game despite we already know terran had a tool to completely trash any late game zerg army. They did nerf the raven after hots btw.
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What's the solution to Lurkers in PvZ without just functionally deleting the unit? Protoss needs to invest in either Storm or Colossus to deal with Hydras, but both are garbage versus Lurkers. Immortals are good versus Lurkers, but getting those along with the aforementioned aoe without dying or letting the Zerg throw down a million bases and transitioning into something like Broodlords is not easy. Undoing the 4.0 Disruptor change would probably just delete Lurkers from the match up.
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EPT
