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StarCraft II Balance Update – December 18 - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
168 CommentsPost a Reply
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franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States583 Posts
January 03 2018 05:37 GMT
#141
On January 03 2018 02:58 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2018 01:43 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 03 2018 00:38 Tyrhanius wrote:
On January 02 2018 18:48 Rail_sc2 wrote:
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/

Balance for december

PvT 53 % , which is much better than people react
PvZ 42 % , which nobody care seems to be

Terrans whined hard in november with 54 % PvT , and protoss should shut their up with 42 % pvz ?

And latest report : PvZ 48,6%.

And if you look GSL qualifier, Protoss have done really well.

Aslo, if you watch the league distribution, Zerg is now the least played race, and not Protoss anymore.

With 16tournaments won compared to 13 for T and Z, best foreigner is a T who has switched to P, and a long list of dude who sucessfully switch from another race to P, like classic, we can say P is the most sucessful race on LOTV (and on SC2 on general).

So yeah, not surprising they are not buffing protoss from just one aligulac report which is now around 50%.

Classic switched long before LoTV, so let's leave him out of this. There were other players who should have switched when their chosen race wasn't suited for their style *cough* Flash *cough*

The point is no Protoss, has switched to Z or T or decide to offrace to win a miror.


This discussion has no point, trying to prove a race's viability because two pros switched races before lotv? Give me a break.

Anyways, Byun switched off Protoss long ago, so there you go.
engesser1
Profile Blog Joined December 2016
264 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-03 06:06:17
January 03 2018 06:05 GMT
#142
TvP is broken. I can't' live with that. Give me some balance, give me something.
Maru, he is the reason why i'm still playing and watching sc2
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16061 Posts
January 03 2018 06:45 GMT
#143
On January 03 2018 02:58 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2018 01:43 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 03 2018 00:38 Tyrhanius wrote:
On January 02 2018 18:48 Rail_sc2 wrote:
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/

Balance for december

PvT 53 % , which is much better than people react
PvZ 42 % , which nobody care seems to be

Terrans whined hard in november with 54 % PvT , and protoss should shut their up with 42 % pvz ?

And latest report : PvZ 48,6%.

And if you look GSL qualifier, Protoss have done really well.

Aslo, if you watch the league distribution, Zerg is now the least played race, and not Protoss anymore.

With 16tournaments won compared to 13 for T and Z, best foreigner is a T who has switched to P, and a long list of dude who sucessfully switch from another race to P, like classic, we can say P is the most sucessful race on LOTV (and on SC2 on general).

So yeah, not surprising they are not buffing protoss from just one aligulac report which is now around 50%.

Classic switched long before LoTV, so let's leave him out of this. There were other players who should have switched when their chosen race wasn't suited for their style *cough* Flash *cough*

The point is no Protoss, has switched to Z or T or decide to offrace to win a miror.

ByuN??
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Kenny_mk1
Profile Joined November 2016
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-03 11:50:47
January 03 2018 11:20 GMT
#144
delete pls
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
January 03 2018 20:36 GMT
#145
Nowadays T needs to mass MMM, libs and ghosts before attack. Play defensive with bio.... and that sucks. But is the only way.
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
January 04 2018 11:31 GMT
#146
On January 02 2018 10:52 LSN wrote:
Does Blizzard know that their matchmaking kills their game?

Look at that:
[image loading]

https://imgur.com/a/8FMiG

What happened here, is that me and someone else had to play with an absolute beginner. Opponent had one disconnect before start, hence they got increased income, while we had that guy that we somehow tried to adapt to and integrate into our game, which was not possible in no way. We lost to P air after all with double zerg, while he blocked expansions. When he left I got 10k mins, even though he almost gathered nothing with the 6-7 drones he had on his bases each.


The question that comes up is, why is that? Why do long term players have to play with/agains starters constantly? Is that some left wing equality shit?

I know that noone enjoys that kind of matchmaking. Why can't players play with/against others on similar rank?

I started playing 3v3 rt a few weeks ago at platin1 and played up to master2. What I can say and observe again is that your own rank barely makes any difference in what kind of match you get, of course the average is increasing, but deveations stay huge. It is mostly random at the end of the day and you never know what you get.
However what I observe as well is that the more similar the teams/opponents ranks are the more fun it is to play. Furthermore it took me ages to get out of platin1/diamond3 cause these games were fully random and you cannot predict team/opponent behaviour at all on that level, they do random stuff all day. Whenever I got streaks of games with/against similar/same rank my results improved alot and I advanced into higher leagues fast. Actually MM should be the other way round. You should get out fast from bottom leagues, as an advanced player, and then progress should slow down, not the other way round.

For me and many others that kind of gameplay is a full waste of time and a fun killer and not what we are looking for when playing starcraft. Is there any chance that can be improved?

As well 1on1 should be counted into team game MMR, as that is the most important factor for the skill of a player, just as I suggested some pages before.


Another problem is that skill is distributed randomly amongst leages and ranks. You find 1on1 GM players on diamond 3 3v3rt and you find people that have started SC2 with f2p patch on diamond 3. The same is true with master 1-3. The rank of a player in 3v3 rt does only to a very small extent represent his skill.

Both of these problems mixed together create the nightmare of matchmaking that SC2 is. I have decided that it is not worth my time and turn my back to it again, even tho I'd like to play some SC2 in general.



Posts like this are a fascinating insight into the utterly broken view some people have of the world

Matchmaker for large team matches is weird sometimes? Must be the liberal agenda!
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
January 04 2018 12:16 GMT
#147

But i love how both Tempest & Range-Prism are "bad designed" while Tempest is here only to counter high-range Liberator & Broodlord, and that prism range is here only so protoss can have an acceptable drop tool compared to medivac, and so it can survive vs sniper Queen. Also, Prism Range is'nt what make drop disru strong.


At some point they will realize that nerfing all air units across the board and redesigning from there would result in a better game. Not sure how long it will take, though.

When you nerf air you make the terrain matter more again. This is a good thing. Adding bonuses for highground would also help, but nerfing air is where it starts.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-04 14:22:17
January 04 2018 14:21 GMT
#148
Funny thing is that the issues terran faces will only get worse.
Mainly because protosses are still figuring out playing without battery, allowing terrans to deal damage with timings, and that some zergs don't get that full hydras with few vipers counter most mech compositions.

I don't see mech compositions performing decently without a viper nerf to match the raven nerf, i don't see bio compositions working decently with the 8 range queen/hydra's speed on creep/35 hp banes. Likewise, bio will always underperform against stalkers 3-shoting marines while getting +2 dmg per upgrade and colossi being that good against marines, and mech not having any answer whatsoever against skytoss will prevent it from being a viable option.

Balance team probably didn't work for the holidays, but with GSL and other competitions coming up there's a dire need for swift action.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
January 04 2018 17:47 GMT
#149
On January 04 2018 23:21 JackONeill wrote:
Funny thing is that the issues terran faces will only get worse.
Mainly because protosses are still figuring out playing without battery, allowing terrans to deal damage with timings, and that some zergs don't get that full hydras with few vipers counter most mech compositions.

I don't see mech compositions performing decently without a viper nerf to match the raven nerf, i don't see bio compositions working decently with the 8 range queen/hydra's speed on creep/35 hp banes. Likewise, bio will always underperform against stalkers 3-shoting marines while getting +2 dmg per upgrade and colossi being that good against marines, and mech not having any answer whatsoever against skytoss will prevent it from being a viable option.

Balance team probably didn't work for the holidays, but with GSL and other competitions coming up there's a dire need for swift action.

Na, Mech is close to OP.

Gumiho have won GSL with mech half this strong.

Mass tanks is so imba, zerg all-in or rush viper like crazy.

Lair is done, they start roach speed, and infest pit a second after, then upgrades, and get hive and viper before starting hydra den lol.
Vipers at 7.30 is the aim not to die...

The B3 gas are also rushed before the B3 is even saturated.

SH is now completly useless at high level and viper is the only tool zerg have to protect vs tanks.

Not to add all the tools Terran has, like cyclon/hellion that can kill zerg early, hellbat with only armory requirement, drop thor which so powerful.

r/allthingzerg is full of "i'm lost on ZvT vs mech, have a 30% winrate"
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
January 04 2018 20:15 GMT
#150
On January 05 2018 02:47 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2018 23:21 JackONeill wrote:
Funny thing is that the issues terran faces will only get worse.
Mainly because protosses are still figuring out playing without battery, allowing terrans to deal damage with timings, and that some zergs don't get that full hydras with few vipers counter most mech compositions.

I don't see mech compositions performing decently without a viper nerf to match the raven nerf, i don't see bio compositions working decently with the 8 range queen/hydra's speed on creep/35 hp banes. Likewise, bio will always underperform against stalkers 3-shoting marines while getting +2 dmg per upgrade and colossi being that good against marines, and mech not having any answer whatsoever against skytoss will prevent it from being a viable option.

Balance team probably didn't work for the holidays, but with GSL and other competitions coming up there's a dire need for swift action.

Na, Mech is close to OP.

Gumiho have won GSL with mech half this strong.

Mass tanks is so imba, zerg all-in or rush viper like crazy.

Lair is done, they start roach speed, and infest pit a second after, then upgrades, and get hive and viper before starting hydra den lol.
Vipers at 7.30 is the aim not to die...

The B3 gas are also rushed before the B3 is even saturated.

SH is now completly useless at high level and viper is the only tool zerg have to protect vs tanks.

Not to add all the tools Terran has, like cyclon/hellion that can kill zerg early, hellbat with only armory requirement, drop thor which so powerful.

r/allthingzerg is full of "i'm lost on ZvT vs mech, have a 30% winrate"


That's a lot of text to convey absolutely zero factual data. Who needs David Kim when we have.... a Zerg sub-Reddit?

Side note: If you're losing to Thor drops in 2018, re-evaluate your life.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-04 21:09:15
January 04 2018 21:08 GMT
#151
On January 05 2018 05:15 always_winter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 05 2018 02:47 Tyrhanius wrote:
On January 04 2018 23:21 JackONeill wrote:
Funny thing is that the issues terran faces will only get worse.
Mainly because protosses are still figuring out playing without battery, allowing terrans to deal damage with timings, and that some zergs don't get that full hydras with few vipers counter most mech compositions.

I don't see mech compositions performing decently without a viper nerf to match the raven nerf, i don't see bio compositions working decently with the 8 range queen/hydra's speed on creep/35 hp banes. Likewise, bio will always underperform against stalkers 3-shoting marines while getting +2 dmg per upgrade and colossi being that good against marines, and mech not having any answer whatsoever against skytoss will prevent it from being a viable option.

Balance team probably didn't work for the holidays, but with GSL and other competitions coming up there's a dire need for swift action.

Na, Mech is close to OP.

Gumiho have won GSL with mech half this strong.

Mass tanks is so imba, zerg all-in or rush viper like crazy.

Lair is done, they start roach speed, and infest pit a second after, then upgrades, and get hive and viper before starting hydra den lol.
Vipers at 7.30 is the aim not to die...

The B3 gas are also rushed before the B3 is even saturated.

SH is now completly useless at high level and viper is the only tool zerg have to protect vs tanks.

Not to add all the tools Terran has, like cyclon/hellion that can kill zerg early, hellbat with only armory requirement, drop thor which so powerful.

r/allthingzerg is full of "i'm lost on ZvT vs mech, have a 30% winrate"


That's a lot of text to convey absolutely zero factual data. Who needs David Kim when we have.... a Zerg sub-Reddit?

Side note: If you're losing to Thor drops in 2018, re-evaluate your life.

Yeah because he brings a lot of facts ?

That's just double standard, terran whine all day whithout bringing any facts but reapeating the same things, and when you don't agree you got insulted

Nobody mention dying on thor drop, just the strenght of this strat, a bit like a immortal drop who can shoot air.
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
January 10 2018 11:16 GMT
#152
Seems like protoss players are doing well with thier ground army and don't bother to calculate a clear way to transition into air fleet.I don't see their desperation when building air units like good'ol brood wars's time.I don't see it and this is a insult to terran's mech and mech players.Protoss does not scare max push ground mech in SC2.
Anyway i think cyclones are fine beside it's armor type.If blizzard remove it's armor tag i'm pretty confident that with this change alone, high cyclones count alongside with other factory units will easily reap through EVERY ground units protoss could offer and BAM! We have a retared version of warhound that doesn't ruin TvZ.I also think protoss players can easily hold off non-armor tag cyclones cheese with thier macro advantage and stargate opening follow up phoenixs anyway so nothing is broken in early game..
And one more thing is just simple change also does help bio in early game from being bullied by stalkers and the bully one would be terran .

I strongly recommend blizzard should try this change then see how it turns out.
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
January 10 2018 13:25 GMT
#153
Cyclones without the armor tag will make them way stronger vs Stalkers, the only unit that can defend vs early cyclones in TvP. Its a huge change. Helion runbies are another new stuff that is coming to the match-up, so its not like TvP is all about early defense by the terran..
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States583 Posts
January 10 2018 16:25 GMT
#154
Cyclones are strong enough, no buff needed.
Myrddrael
Profile Joined November 2012
United Kingdom291 Posts
January 10 2018 17:37 GMT
#155
From what I've seen, the main issue seems to be how fast Protoss can churn out upgrades? It just makes fights look really one sided sometimes. Maybe I'm wrong though.
pvsnp
Profile Joined January 2017
7676 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-10 18:08:27
January 10 2018 17:55 GMT
#156
On January 11 2018 02:37 Myrddrael wrote:
From what I've seen, the main issue seems to be how fast Protoss can churn out upgrades? It just makes fights look really one sided sometimes. Maybe I'm wrong though.

The main issue is that without WM drops forcing detection, and with buffed Stalkers keeping Terran inside their base, Protoss is free to safely drop a fast third + double forge. By the time Terran can push, Stalker/Zealot/Immortal on superior upgrades and (eventually) storm is just waiting to eat them alive.

Details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/529995-pbotw-pvt-dns-blink-pressure-into-2x-forge

Imo the buffed Stalker is fine by itself, the real problem is that Terran lacks any reliable options to stop Protoss from getting a superior eco + superior upgrades. Early bio pushes are slaughtered by Stalker kiting, WM drops kill some probes at most, same for Lib harass, and Banshees are shut down by Shield Batteries. A handful of Stalkers is always the right answer for Protoss, and thus the aforementioned build is proof against basically anything Terran does except crazy cheese, which is obviously not reliable.

I've watched Stats and Zest use some variations of this build on stream, but the core concept is third + double forge while soft-containing Terran with blink stalkers. And it is strong as fuck.
Denominator of the Universe
TL+ Member
MrWayne
Profile Joined December 2016
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-10 18:26:10
January 10 2018 18:25 GMT
#157
On January 10 2018 20:16 seemsgood wrote:
Seems like protoss players are doing well with thier ground army and don't bother to calculate a clear way to transition into air fleet.I don't see their desperation when building air units like good'ol brood wars's time.I don't see it and this is a insult to terran's mech and mech players.Protoss does not scare max push ground mech in SC2.
Anyway i think cyclones are fine beside it's armor type.If blizzard remove it's armor tag i'm pretty confident that with this change alone, high cyclones count alongside with other factory units will easily reap through EVERY ground units protoss could offer and BAM! We have a retared version of warhound that doesn't ruin TvZ.I also think protoss players can easily hold off non-armor tag cyclones cheese with thier macro advantage and stargate opening follow up phoenixs anyway so nothing is broken in early game..
And one more thing is just simple change also does help bio in early game from being bullied by stalkers and the bully one would be terran .

I strongly recommend blizzard should try this change then see how it turns out.


honestly speaking, that would be a terrible change.
the Cyclone would just destroy every ground comp Protoss can make, even a pure immortal army would get destroyed.
TvT would be Cyclone vs Cyclone every game from start to end, both players would be unable to transition out of this BS because Tanks wouldn't do shit.
Ransomstarcraft
Profile Joined September 2016
75 Posts
January 10 2018 21:21 GMT
#158
The Raven still needs to be reworked. Anti-armor missile splashes onto friendly units. Repair drone does the work of approximately 2.25 scv's, which is nice, but not worth the 100M/200G investment not to mention the requirement of a Starport with a tech lab. The cost of healing a Siege Tank (by SCV's) up from 1HP to 175 is 37.5 minerals and 31.25 gas.

I would like to see the widow mine cost, damage, and supply cut in half and the production doubled to make minefields more viable. Lowering the build time has done very little to change the fact that this is another unit, like the reaper or cyclone, that you build 1 or 2 of for early defense and then serves no purpose otherwise. The vulnerability of the mine and the fact that it does friendly fire damage all the time means the best way to defend a vulnerable mine is with other mines. (Mines don't friendly fire other mines.)

Here's my math on the repair drone with the example of a Siege Tank:
Comparison: A Siege Tank

HP: 175
Build time: 32 seconds
Mineral Cost: 150
Gas Cost: 125

Repair drone heals at a rate of around 12.6 mechanical unit life per second and lasts for 90 seconds.
An SCV heals at the same rate a unit builds. A Siege Tank takes 32 seconds to build.
Repairing a unit from zero health to full takes 25% of its unit cost.

Repair drone can completely heal a Siege Tank up from 1HP to 175HP in 13.8 seconds
An SCV can heal a siege tank from 1HP to 175HP in 31.8 seconds

I would suggest that in the future either the Raven's cost should come down, it should be reactorable from the Starport or moved to the Factory, or that some of its more useful previous abilities be returned such as PDD. Right now the unit does not have an ability that shines. Compare it to the Viper and you'll see what I mean. Each of the Viper's abilities is incredibly useful in certain circumstances. The Raven has similar cost, more of a commitment as far as production goes (it ties up a Starport with a tech lab), and still no abilities that warrant making one. The Viper's parasitic bomb does 120 damage, splash, and no friendly fire. This is before we even get to abduct, Blinding Cloud, and Consume, which is a bonus 4th ability that the Viper has. I'm still struggling to understand what class Blizzard wants the Raven to fit into.
KR_4EVR
Profile Joined July 2017
316 Posts
January 10 2018 22:03 GMT
#159
What needs to happen for the game to be fun to play:

Zerglings need to have HP reduced by 5.
Banelings need to have zero bonus HP from centrifugal hooks.
Un-upgraded overlord speed needs to be brought back to reasonable levels.

Tank needs to cost 125 minerals instead of 135.
Get rid of the raven and give terran a vision unit for 50/50 with no attack.
Get rid of cyclone and replace with 3 modes of tank transportation: light (anti-air), normal (normal), seiged (seiged). The idea here is that you can't simply convert between seiged and light you have to toggle through the stages. Function of light mode should match Goliath.
Return the original HOTS mine.

Protoss needs MSC with strong photon overcharge on Nexus Only. Except energy comes from the Nexus, and is auto-cast if the MSC is over the nexus. MSC is the 1 place to which your army can return with teleport.
Storm should be shaped in doughnut not circle. Everybody knows eye of storm is calm. Would make for more sophisticated cast also.
Change stalker tag to anti-light, adept tag to anti-armoured.


Infestor, Ghost, High Templar. All should have 200 energy max and have fungal, emp, storm cost 100.
Et tu Brute ?
KR_4EVR
Profile Joined July 2017
316 Posts
January 10 2018 22:05 GMT
#160
Oh, i forgot to mention.
Would prefer replacing ghost snipe with seeker missile and no cancel ability.
Et tu Brute ?
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