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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 19 2017 18:18 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 17:53 deacon.frost wrote:On December 19 2017 13:47 Hushfield wrote:
Disruptor change will at least give some time to react to those ridiculous warp prism driveby plays. Weren't looking at your army for one second? Say bye to 10+ supply of bio. In PvT it goes both ways - e.g. ghosts. False equivalence fallacy. EMP kills nothing on its own. Novas do. Mines would be closer at least, but even mines have to burrow and then can be easily cleaned up afterwards, two shortcomings that disruptors don't worry about. Before the nerf disruptor drops were ridiculous. . Not like Protoss is short on splash either.
If I'm not looking at my army for a second and I lose all my shields and energy - then the army is effectively dead as Protoss relies on this. Thus we both have to watch the army all the time(or cheat EMP with the warp prism  ). While nova (and former kamikaze ball) is a BS unit which I hate it doesn't matter it's not happening the other way around. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's the same "you were not watching for a second now you will suffer" moment. SC2 has plenty of these and it's the Achilles heel of this game. Terrible terrible damage in a blink of an eye
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On December 19 2017 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 18:18 pvsnp wrote:On December 19 2017 17:53 deacon.frost wrote:On December 19 2017 13:47 Hushfield wrote:
Disruptor change will at least give some time to react to those ridiculous warp prism driveby plays. Weren't looking at your army for one second? Say bye to 10+ supply of bio. In PvT it goes both ways - e.g. ghosts. False equivalence fallacy. EMP kills nothing on its own. Novas do. Mines would be closer at least, but even mines have to burrow and then can be easily cleaned up afterwards, two shortcomings that disruptors don't worry about. Before the nerf disruptor drops were ridiculous. . Not like Protoss is short on splash either. If I'm not looking at my army for a second and I lose all my shields and energy - then the army is effectively dead as Protoss relies on this. Thus we both have to watch the army all the time(or cheat EMP with the warp prism ). While nova (and former kamikaze ball) is a BS unit which I hate it doesn't matter it's not happening the other way around. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's the same "you were not watching for a second now you will suffer" moment. SC2 has plenty of these and it's the Achilles heel of this game. Terrible terrible damage in a blink of an eye
The other difference between EMP and Nova is that Nova also has to "travel" to it's target and being it quick fast it is still much slower than EMP.
Nova was instantaneous only with WP drop on top of enemy unit.
Still - whatever.
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New Raven is useless, not sure theses buffs will be enough.
I am also wondering why they do not buff marauders or revert them as they were in Hots, and that way they could keep stalkers without nerfing them.
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jesus christ the disruptor is garbage now
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On December 19 2017 07:32 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:00 TheWildShooter wrote:On December 19 2017 06:00 SilverBullet wrote:On December 19 2017 05:48 Vorment wrote:
Interesting how we had 50% chronoboost for as long as we want, and now we have for 20 secs. The nexus regens 1.4 energy per second * 20 seconds = 28 energy So you have "as long as we want" (on one building) chronoboost. First, don't lie, the energy regen is 0.7875 per second for LotV and this is true for all units and buildings (And when Nexus is boosted it's regenerates energy in slightly slower pace). Secondly, chrono boost takes 50 energy for activation, not 25 as it used to be in WoL and HotS. If you're going to talk about the difference between LotV and WoL/HotS in this context of balance, you should also mention that all the macro mechanics were nerfed in LotV and Protoss is not (and should not be) an exception. Yes, chrono is weaker then it was in the past. Yes, that is fine because everyone's macro mechanics are weaker.
Chrono was always the weakest macro mechanic. A lot of balance changes have been pushed since WoL so it's not fair to make the conclusion that because Terran/Zerg macro mechanic is weaker and Protoss macro mechanic is stronger therefore Protoss is now imbalanced. I think it's cool that now like Terran and Zerg we have an impactful and meaningful macro mechanic that is also very thematic to Protoss.
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On December 19 2017 19:18 MrWayne wrote:
Hm this update is disappointing, the changes they made are nice but they won't fix TvP with them.
Unless Protoss is on 7 or more bases the Chrono Boost change don't affect how fast they can get their upgrades at all which means that the double forge + mass gateway style is exactly as strong as befor.
My prediction is, the proposed Stalker nerf will come with the next balance update.
PvT win rates had fallen to well within the acceptable margin from Blizzard even before these nerfs. Sure, ~52.5% is still 7.5% higher than Terran players are used to, but Terran players will just have to learn to deal with it.
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not the matter , the problem are stalkers ! Way too strong for the cost
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stalkers are fragile units, and marauders chew threw em easy ... just like hots and wol.
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On December 19 2017 21:49 bObA wrote:
New Raven is useless, not sure theses buffs will be enough.
I am also wondering why they do not buff marauders or revert them as they were in Hots, and that way they could keep stalkers without nerfing them.
People said the same thing about vipers at first.
Raven is now a support unit, you only build 1-3 max.
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United States752 Posts
On December 19 2017 19:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 18:18 pvsnp wrote:On December 19 2017 17:53 deacon.frost wrote:On December 19 2017 13:47 Hushfield wrote:
Disruptor change will at least give some time to react to those ridiculous warp prism driveby plays. Weren't looking at your army for one second? Say bye to 10+ supply of bio. In PvT it goes both ways - e.g. ghosts. False equivalence fallacy. EMP kills nothing on its own. Novas do. Mines would be closer at least, but even mines have to burrow and then can be easily cleaned up afterwards, two shortcomings that disruptors don't worry about. Before the nerf disruptor drops were ridiculous. . Not like Protoss is short on splash either. If I'm not looking at my army for a second and I lose all my shields and energy - then the army is effectively dead as Protoss relies on this. Thus we both have to watch the army all the time(or cheat EMP with the warp prism ). While nova (and former kamikaze ball) is a BS unit which I hate it doesn't matter it's not happening the other way around. And I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's the same "you were not watching for a second now you will suffer" moment. SC2 has plenty of these and it's the Achilles heel of this game. Terrible terrible damage in a blink of an eye
You can't drop ghosts right next to Protoss army vaporize 10-15 supply of units than leave every 30 seconds or so. Fast dmg on fights is one thing fast repeatable destruction of army units is something that only the current disruptor and the old stealthed widow mine provided and the new disruptor did this way more reliably.
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Definitely harder to play high
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Another step in the right direction. Still not there though.
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On December 19 2017 23:30 daam wrote:
not the matter , the problem are stalkers ! Way too strong for the cost
On December 19 2017 23:30 daam wrote:
not the matter , the problem are stalkers ! Way too strong for the cost
if, in fact, Stalkers and Marauders are correctly balanced in the game then its these kinds of arguments that actually make them very interesting, fascinating units.
they are so straightforward.. its not like they have these exotic spells that change the effectiveness of the unit... and it really shows that when Dustn Browder first designed the Stalker and Marauder he did a good job.
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Can we discuss about tanks being way too strong ?
The damage is insane, they require no upgrade for siege and you can easily mass them...
Blinding cloud is nerfed, SH are now useless, mutas are not viable thx to thors being too strong ?
At least if they nerf thor splash and you can magic box again then revert WM nerf.
4M vs LBM was the best area.
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On December 20 2017 02:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
and it really shows that when Dustn Browder first designed the Stalker and Marauder he did a good job.
It might be my nostalgia influencing me but I feel the game was in a flawed, yet really good state during the WOL beta. I miss those times.
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On December 20 2017 05:43 Tyrhanius wrote:
Can we discuss about tanks being way too strong ?
The damage is insane, they require no upgrade for siege and you can easily mass them...
Blinding cloud is nerfed, SH are now useless, mutas are not viable thx to thors being too strong ?
At least if they nerf thor splash and you can magic box again then revert WM nerf.
4M vs LBM was the best area.
????
TvZ is in a good spot balance-wise atm. It's at 48% and has been slightly below 50% since Blizzcon, so slightly Zerg-favored but well within the bounds of a balanced matchup.
Tanks therefore, are balanced as part of that. Unless you amove into a siege line, Zerg does just fine against them. I suggest you focus on SH and Vipers to counter tanks. I trust Rogue and Dark over you, so I'll conclude that blinding cloud and locusts are not useless at all, and in fact extremely useful– potentially game-winning–counters. The standard strategy is to tech up to BLs. Rogue prefers to do a rapid-remax cycle, first hydras then banes then lings. If you don't like lategame, a very common trick that Dark likes is to go for a big ravager-ling timing at the Terran third. Either way, tanks–while strong–have very clear weaknesses/counters and thus need no changes.
Just recently, I watched Rogue play Inno on stream in a pair of grueling mech games. Both of them went late, both of them were really close, and both of them were incredibly sick to watch. Rogue barely won one, Inno barely won the other. While I do agree that 4M vs LBM is/was the pinnacle of TvZ and of SC2 as a whole, mech TvZ can also be pretty entertaining when the best of the best are playing.
I'd love to see 4M vs LBM come back, don't get me wrong. But that would require at least a hydra nerf, thor nerf, and WM revert, which would propagate into other matchups and probably wreck the balance completely. In any case, the balance team has bigger concerns right now with TvP and PvZ.
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tanks are actually perfect after the most recent stalker buff.
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On December 20 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2017 05:43 Tyrhanius wrote:
Can we discuss about tanks being way too strong ?
The damage is insane, they require no upgrade for siege and you can easily mass them...
Blinding cloud is nerfed, SH are now useless, mutas are not viable thx to thors being too strong ?
At least if they nerf thor splash and you can magic box again then revert WM nerf.
4M vs LBM was the best area. ???? TvZ is in a good spot balance-wise atm. It's at 48% and has been slightly below 50% since Blizzcon, so slightly Zerg-favored but well within the bounds of a balanced matchup. Tanks therefore, are balanced as part of that. Unless you amove into a siege line, Zerg does just fine against them. I suggest you focus on SH and Vipers to counter tanks. I trust Rogue and Dark over you, so I'll conclude that blinding cloud and locusts are not useless at all, and in fact extremely useful– potentially game-winning–counters. The standard strategy is to tech up to BLs. Rogue prefers to do a rapid-remax cycle, first hydras then banes then lings. If you don't like lategame, a very common trick that Dark likes is to go for a big ravager-ling timing at the Terran third. Either way, tanks–while strong–have very clear weaknesses/counters and thus need no changes. Just recently, I watched Rogue play Inno on stream in a pair of grueling mech games. Both of them went late, both of them were really close, and both of them were incredibly sick to watch. Rogue barely won one, Inno barely won the other. While I do agree that 4M vs LBM is/was the pinnacle of TvZ and of SC2 as a whole, mech TvZ can also be pretty entertaining when the best of the best are playing. I'd love to see 4M vs LBM come back, don't get me wrong. But that would require at least a hydra nerf, thor nerf, and WM revert, which would propagate into other matchups and probably wreck the balance completely. In any case, the balance team has bigger concerns right now with TvP and PvZ.
do you happen to have any links for those games?
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Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast.
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On December 20 2017 17:30 LSN wrote:
Seriously, does Blizzard even know about their game's state?
It is not far away from command & conquer full retard level anymore.
I don't know many guys, who do not wish to just delete and forget about SC2 altogether, which are no full noobs or total white knights.
As an older guy that plays since WC2 I was recently trying to have some fun with SC2 after a longer period of inactivity (~18 months?). Hence I logged myself into several RT 3on3 games. Halleluja.
I could not manage to play myself out of diamond 3 level for quite some time first. Meanwhiles I reached Diamond 2 level (3on3 RT, solo), which to a large degree is result from lucky random distributions and nothing else, that means I just got more lucky with team mates while my opponent's teams did not.
Ok lets end the funny stories and come to actual issues, to save my and your time:
1. Protoss air is too strong and dominates the whole meta in teamgames.
2. MM in SC2 (such as in HOTS) can not detect player strengths. Players are somewhat randomly distributed over the ranks. It means almost nothing, mostly it is an indicator of activity and the ability to abuse MM mechanics - not an indicator of skill.
3. Even if you are on a certain rank it means few for your matchmaking, hence ranks becomes completely meaningless. Playing 3on3 RT on master 1 gives you the same selection of players as playing on diamond 3 - 90% of times.
(note: all that is related to 3on3 and 4on4 RT with full random team only, not with max fixed mates + 1 random player).
1. Protoss air is too strong.
Carrier's interceptors follow units in range that move out of range way too long. Basically nothing can escape. Even hit and run units like mutas can't escape after hitting carriers, interceptors just a move behind them somehow and kill em over half map size or smth.
Emergency Fix:
Reduce interceptor log on by 67%
Step 2:
Play around with interceptor vs. armor interactions. E.g. give interceptors 2x3 dmg instead of 1x6 and add 2x1 so that it becomes 2x4. Add some armor to affected units like corruptors and reduce their health?
2. Random distribution of skill over the ranks.
Steps:
Determine player skill as a new variable, it is not represented by MMR.
1on1 = 50% 1on1 current + 50% 1on1 history
2on2 = 50% 1on1 + 50% 2on2
3on3 = 50% 1on1, 25% 2on2 + 25% 3on3
4on4 = 50% 1on1, 50/3% 2on2, 50/3% 3on3 + 50/3% 4on4
Add history of teammatches in case history of 1on1 has not enough data (not played or barely played):
Get a % relation of 1on1 to 2on2, 1on1 to 3on3 and 1on1 to 4on4 of each player in the brackets a) current season, b) 12 months, c) all-time. Inject into equations.
3. Random matchmaking:
Create matches amongst players who are similar through a system described before. Stop the matchmaking to believe a better player (lets say master 1) can or even wants to make up for a worse player (lets say gold) while playing against 2 mediocre opponents (lets say diamond). It is a reason for
the randomness as well.
Lets continue with few more funny stories:
I tried playing some protoss and was more successful than playing with my mainrace with only a-moving units around. You go instant air behind cannons + teammates every game. Basically it is enough to do one move with your either rays or fenixes (depending what you opted for) before carriers hit. That means you either a-move out with like 6-8 rays and kill one expansion of the opponent or important tech or units, or you bring down energy of like 10-12 fenixes to zero once while lifting random units. Your carriers arrive meanwhiles and you done mostly.
The randomness of games result from the randomness of team assembly (a system that does not work like the one I described above) combined with the randomness of distribution of skill. It is basically full random, nothing else. Hence I am on diamond 3 (3on3 in that case) just like the guy who got SC2 since free2play patch and system puts us on same skill level. Results are hyper frustrating for everyone I know.
Abuse: You can of course abuse the system with maxed fixed mates + one random mate. It is not my matter, I wanna see SC2 improve, what you deliver in MM is close to trash level.
Even if you manage to get a higher rank you get the same selection of players in your game. It is impossible to feel any fun with the game that way. My 4on4 RT rank is still on master 1 just like 18 months ago when I was #1 EU (I know, big gosu that I am) for several weeks. No matter 18 months ago or now, it does not make any difference in player selection if I play on my 3on3 RT diamond3 or my 4on4 RT master 1, it is the same random selection of players (master + gold = 2x diamond) with random distribution of skill (full noobs in diamond and masters, inactive or non abusers on lower ranks).
SC2 ist what you could call a failed state. Backing off, nuff said. HF flamers.
Edit: Forgot one thing.
I think protoss can get upgrades way too fast with chrono. Curren't patch wont help much I believe. 3 air dmg is there way too fast.
Just to make sure I get it right, you're actually proposing changes to the game based on a bunch of random team 3v3 games at diamond level ?
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EPT
