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On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
It was not at all mediocre. It was extremely high level. Even the short games. Game 1 for example looks dumb but the reason it looked like that is sOs already knew what Innovation was going to do through studying his playstyle, that all happens off-screen, he knew the exact time to attack to completely dismantle the build. It looked like Inno didn't know what he was doing but only because sOs was incredibly precise and controlled the game completely. You can see in Game 7 how that game could have looked, you see the power of Inno's build in Game 1 if it goes uncontested, and suddenly you go "Oh". The game where Inno moved out to kill the proxy and sOs built another proxy and flanked him is also deceptively deep as it was won with a strong tactical play rather than micro or macro. sOs also pulled out his mass expand/speedlots build that i've literally never seen in a broadcasted game ever. It's completely new and nobody has ever played like this in SC2. Builds like that could change the metagame forever if they become popular. Only the last two games were, uh, questionable
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On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style.
No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
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514 Posts
sOs is great at strategies and mindgames but his skill is not really top lvl, and I don't mean to say he is "bad", but you can see how good he could be if he can polish his mechanics or micro at some engages. He reminds me myself when I had really good strategies back in WoL but at some point in the engage y was mainly praying to win instead microing lol
He is really a great player but sometimes it saddens me how off his micro at engages feels, I hope he can improve that aspect a lot and then nobody could be called "the best protoss" instead of him.
On the other hand... congrats to Inno for winning and becoming seriously the GOAT, I was absolutely astonish when watching him survive and even come back from some extremely hard situations in those games, he really deserved to win at the end.
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On September 17 2017 08:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Stats and Classic would approach the games differently in the first place Happy Birthday
Thank you!
On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
I mean there were weird decisions but maybe it makes sense for sOs' gameplan :D But yeah no idea what exactly his thought process was in that specific example.
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On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
I assume sOs simply misread the situation. It's easy to be critical when we have perfect vision of everything, supply counts, production tabs, etc. Players make mistakes, and sOs made one when he decided to take the 3rd.
My guess is that he thought Inno was going super-greedy on his side of the map because the first push failed to kill the natural Nexus. If that were the case, Inno's forces would just posture and poke, and the correct decision for sOs would be to expand.
In any case, moves like that are par for the course when sOs is playing. Normal players take small risks for small rewards. sOs gambles the whole game on crazy decisions all the time.
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On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
Well obviously as an observer it's clear to see. From sOs's perspective he may have thought Inno was expanding and he had held the agression. Plus he was floating a lot of minerals anyway
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Once again a terran. Surprise, surprise.............
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All this SoS hate in one thread, wow... being subtle about too. SoS's play style is sooo much more entertaining than the same old max out and fight style with little harassment in-between games.
You know the s in rts stands for strategy right?
SoS's 7 different builds > innovations three builds. What a great players.
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Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here.
All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
People usually forget SC is a strategy game. Inno strategy is play estandar macro games, the field where he is almost unbeatable thanks to his mechanics. sOs likes to play mind/dirty/(call it whatever you want) games, and his playstyle is almost entirely focused on making this succed. From a strategy point of view, sOs is a greater player than Inno, but Inno is a greater player when it comes to mechanics. Say this finals had a mediocre level when two different strategies goes to a pretty close 4-3 is nonsense.
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On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry
Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life.
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On September 17 2017 09:22 youngjiddle wrote:
All this SoS hate in one thread, wow... being subtle about too. SoS's play style is sooo much more entertaining than the same old max out and fight style with little harassment in-between games.
You know the s in rts stands for strategy right?
SoS's 7 different builds > innovations three builds. What a great players.
"SoS"
............
REEEEEEE
It is "sOs." If you call yourself a fan of the player, the least you can do is get his name right.
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On September 17 2017 09:36 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life.
"nowhere near as dominant as Inno did" well that's just incorrect. Zest won GSL last year going 22-3 in the whole event. Inno just went 20-13 in his.
Zest in 2014 was basically as dominant as Inno is now. Like I said, only him, MVP, and now Inno have won 3 korean events in the same year. He also had an insane peak in 2014 that featured one of the most dominant GSL runs of all time.
And Life only has 2 Code S titles btw. People forget almost all his wins came from outside korea
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On September 17 2017 10:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 09:36 ParksonVN wrote:On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life. "nowhere near as dominant as Inno did" well that's just incorrect. Zest won GSL last year going 22-3 in the whole event. Inno just went 20-13 in his. Zest in 2014 was basically as dominant as Inno is now. Like I said, only him, MVP, and now Inno have won 3 korean events in the same year. He also had an insane peak in 2014 that featured one of the most dominant GSL runs of all time. And Life only has 2 Code S titles btw. People forget almost all his wins came from outside korea
Inno was just as dominant as Zest was in 2014, they both won gsl while Zest is almost irrelevant this year.
The reason why Life could be par with Inno and clearly above Zest is that he won Blizzcon and also was the leading player of his own race for a long period, just like Inno for Terran, while there were tons of Protosses were on Zest's level: Rain, Classic, sOs, Stats. I mean we couldn't find any Zerg or Terran could play on the same levels of Life and Inno in their prime eras and it didn't apply for Zest.
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This was a FANTASTIC series!
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Both players played magnificently, to the best of their strengths.
sOs is an agent of chaos - like the Joker.
Inno is analytical, methodological and unbending - like Batman.
And the series turned out just like 'The Dark Knight'. Just as Batman was stretched to his moral limits, Inno was stretched to his mechanical limits. No amount of raw skill can effectively counter sOs' mad genius (ninja expos, proxies, fake-outs, econ greed, etc.). In G5, sOs gambled hard with BW-esque Refugee Toss strat - and it worked brilliantly. In the final two games, however, Inno really wised up and anticipated sOs' moves with precision (G6 - the god-sense scan on the right of sOs' army where his DTs were lurking; G7 - the marine scout catching sight of the hidden 5 o'clock expo).
sOs nearly prevailed with his chaotic play-style. But in the end, Inno restored order. Unlike TDK, sOs did not get the last laugh.
Brilliant performance for both sides! Should go down in SC2 history as one of the greatest finals!
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Is INnoVation the clear GOAT now?
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On September 17 2017 12:39 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Is INnoVation the clear GOAT now?
I would say that Inno is GOAT, but I am a fan of his. Others might not agree, and Mvp+Life still have decent cases for GOAT themselves. While Inno has won the most Starleagues and most Korean tournaments, he still has fewer overall trophies.
To make himself incontestably GOAT, I'd say that Inno has to win at least one more Starleague plus two more weekenders. That would put him at five Starleagues and eleven total trophies, meaning most Starleagues and most trophies. If Inno wins Blizzcon, the associated PR and hype would also go a long way towards cementing his GOAT status.
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He already has the most Starleagues. He just needs a few more tournaments. Blizzcon would be amazing. But we all know sOs wins that by cannon rushing Dark 4 games straight.
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Such a great series but ughhh that last game was so disheartening. sOs had to play so out of his mind just to get to three wins then he just crumbles to a tank push. Honestly if game two went as it should have after the early/mid game he would have taken it. It was like watching the fight in Rocky 4 against the Russian except with Rocky losing. Man, innovation is too good.
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What does GOAT stand for?
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EPT
