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4 Posts
At the end of a more than three month journey and a GSL championship in sight,  sOs and  INnoVation faced off in the final Code S finals of the year. While INnoVation was considered the favorite, sOs, who was in search of his first Korean Starleague title, remained an extremely dangerous and worthy opponent.
Game one took place on Mech Depot. sOs opened with a gateway expand as INnoVation made a reaper and marine from his barracks while expanding. sOs teched into robo/twilight, eventually getting a warp prism and glaives while INnoVation made a defensive widow mine and viking as he worked towards a stim timing. On the other side of the map, sOs was still on two bases researching double upgrades. INnoVation moved out with bio/tank, but sOs struck at that exact moment with his adepts, killing 23 workers while holding INnoVation's push at home. Unable to make any headway, INnoVation headed home while sOs added a pair of colossi into his composition before moving out. INnoVation canceled sOs' third with a double drop, but had nothing at home to prevent sOs from ravaging his main and reducing him to four SCVs. INnoVation killed every worker in sOs' main, but was unable to break through sOs' sentries into the Protoss' fully saturated natural. sOs brought his army back and cleaned INnoVation up to take a 1-0 lead.
INnoVation and sOs opened with conservative expand builds on Abyssal Reef, but this time sOs went for a stargate while scouting the map with a probe for potential proxies. Having built everything in his base, INnOVation successfully scouted the stargate with a reaper and built an engineering bay in response. sOs pumped oracles out, moving out with his first two, only to be driven back by a viking. sOs kept making oracles, raising the count to four, while mixing in void rays and taking a third base. INnoVation meanwhile went for the standard tank push on Abyssal Reef, setting up a siege on sOs' natural. sOs defended with void rays while sniping stimpack and combat shield with his oracles. sOs then counter-attacked with adepts, killing 14 SCVs to take a 15 worker lead. He continued to kill more, but INnoVation established himself on three bases before moving out with a 30 army supply lead. sOs defended all manner of aggression from the bio/mine force on all four of his bases with the help of colossi. Having had enough, sOs moved out, but found himself in a basetrade. Unable to break through INnoVation's liberators and make it into the main, he had to settle for the Terran's third. With his army crumbling and his main devastated, sOs left the game, making the score 1-1.
sOs went for quick pressure with his mothership core on Newkirk Precinct, but lost it to marines without doing any damage. sOs managed to sneak past INnoVation's cyclone and kill four workers with his oracle while expanding, but a two base INnoVation had proxied a factory and was producing two cyclones at a time. INnoVation gathered his marines and moved across the map as sOs went up to four oracles. INnoVation charged into sOs' natural and, while he lost all his marines to adepts and oracles, his cyclones lived through the encounter, weakening the nexus while taking an eight worker lead. sOs took his third while getting phoenixes and +1 air attack, but INnoVation attacked into sOs' natural with cyclones once more. sOs defended with lifts and probe pulls, but didn't have the damage to stop INnoVation from taking the game and going up 2-1.
Game four took place on Whirlwind. The players spawned vertically on the left side of the map, with sOs at the 11 o'clock and INnoVation at 7 o'clock. The Jin Air Protoss got a quick scout before proxying a stargate in the third base northeast of INnoVation’s main. INnoVation scouted it with a reaper, but could not prevent oracles from getting out. With his natural slowed by a harassing probe, INnoVation built a bunker at the bottom of his ramp. sOs did not opt for a pylon rush, however, instead opting for a slower developing massive two base glaives attack. INnoVation had stimmed marines but nothing else to stop the adept warp. Having bled off a fair number of units before the fight even began, INnoVation tried to add in marauders, but did not have enough to hold against ceaseless warpins and prevent sOs from evening the series.
sOs opened with a proxy stargate in the bottom left of Odyssey before taking the nearby gold base. INnoVation scouted the entire map, eventually finding the hidden expansion, albeit when it was already half way completed. INnoVation defended the oracles with a cyclone and reactored marines, but sOs was already proxying a twilight council and gateways with his stargate. sOs applied adept pressure as glaives completed, but got nothing done and retreated. INnoVation countered with a mine drop that killed six workers, but sOs was double expanding to his traditional natural and third. while getting phoenixes, +1 air attack, +1 armor and charge. INnoVation on the other hand, was going bio/mine while starting construction on his third base. INnoVation moved out, only to be caught by phoenixes, adept and zealots. sOs was unable to capitalize on the victory, though, as INnoVation moved up to a solid liberator count while continuing to expand. sOs constantly harassed with dark templar and zealots, eventually bringing INnoVation to less than 20 workers, but he was bleeding off units in a perpetual flight from ranged liberators. INnoVation was slowly losing units as well as sOs made occasional stands, however, but managed to force a pseudo-basetrade. He reduced sOs to one mining base, but lost all of his orbitals which meant sOs’ dark templar had free reign over the ground on the map. The writing was on the wall and, with his army being hacked apart by invisible units, INnoVation left the game, giving sOs a 3-2 lead.
INnoVation opened with a greedy 3CC on Ascension to Aiur, moving into reactored marines and a second barracks. sOs meanwhile opted for a dark shrine and warp prism, which INnoVation scanned while still in production. Given ample time to prepare, INnOVation took no damage from the initial dark templar harassment. sOs took his third, but before that researched DT blink and charge. He tried to hit a timing with a large number of dark templar, zealots and a sentry for guardian shield and even caught INnoVation moving out to take his third, but didn't have enough to tackle INnoVation's bio force. sOs hung around for awhile in an attempt to do damage, but got nowhere. He conceded after a desperate attack into INnoVation's third failed, sending the match to a seventh game.
sOs went for a gas steal on Acolyte while expanding and adding on a stargate. On the other side of the map, INnoVation expanded while starting up reactored marine/mine production. sOs took his third while going into phoenixes and starting his first colossus. Having taken his own third, INnoVation set up a siege position outside sOs' third. He built a pair of bunkers and eventually killed the nexus as well as a colossus. Locked in his main, sOs used a probe he had snuck out on the map to take a hidden third base, but INnoVation sniffed it out just as sOs was recalling his probes to it. sOs recalled back to his main before recalling one more time as he sent his entire army to the now dead base. With INnoVation pouring into his main, sOs attempted a basetrade but had too small of an army and no answer to vikings. Out of army and out of options, sOs typed out, making INnoVation the third three time Code S champion after Mvp and  NesTea.
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INnovation is the man !
Really nice games vs Dark and SoS
This guy deserves his 3rd GSL title
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Ascension to AIr
Totally illegible
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3 Code S, a Starleague, IEM Korea, 2 times Proleague champion. GOAT.
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He went 3-2 in TvT, 4-3 in TvZ (against one of the very best ZvT) and 4-3 vs Protoss (against the most unpredictable opponent). Gratz INnoVation !
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Very fast writeup (y). Good series, nice solid T win. Innovation är bäst ingen protost.
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good series! good viewing.
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Amazing series to watch! Still a bit disappointed sOs lost, but it was so close and exciting that I'll get over it. 
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Great games but SOS threw game 6.
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Let's go Inno, Blizzcon next up!!!
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Good games to watch, $O$ has a really interesting play style. Well done Inno. Bring on the AI, let's see Human machine Vs Machine machine.
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So sad about game 6... but it was a good effort, sOs almost had it IF.... but alas. Good job on Innovation, not falling apart against this madness.
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That's a broken liquipedia link.
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After g5 i was feeling an SOS win.. so sad for him! GG innovation anyway, amazing series.. blink DTS!!!
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On September 16 2017 23:38 lechatnoir wrote:
So sad about game 6... but it was a good effort, sOs almost had it IF.... but alas. Good job on Innovation, not falling apart against this madness.
he threw colossus alone on bunkers and tanks in final set lol, idk if it was a bigger mistake than trying to win with dt blink.
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Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title?
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title?
There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using.
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I'm glad we finally got our GOAT
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
So, with that Inno has same GSL finals record as Mvp, huh. And sOs starts to have a hilarious GSL record as well.
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MVP has one more final (one lost against Life, one against MMA).
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 17 2017 02:09 Frenchy91 wrote:
MVP has one more final (one lost against Life, one against MMA).
Ah, true that, my bad.
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On September 17 2017 02:09 Frenchy91 wrote:
MVP has one more final (one lost against Life, one against MMA).
Rofl, finals are meaningless at this point
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On September 17 2017 02:16 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 02:09 Frenchy91 wrote:
MVP has one more final (one lost against Life, one against MMA). Ah, true that, my bad.
Mvp and Inno have the same number of GSL trophies, but Mvp has one more second place
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Poor Mvp's fanboy, the end of their illusions is inescapable, and imminent ...
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innovation the new bonjwa
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with all the short games , cut throat all-ins , proxies and secret expansions.... this was another SC2 series that really felt like a C&C series.
it was awesome that Innovation never saw that top right hand corner expansion in game 5.
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I'm a fan of Inno but the truth is that MVP has one more final. But Inno has a Starleague !
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What did sOs say at the end of game seven?
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On September 17 2017 03:45 Akara12345 wrote:
What did sOs say at the end of game seven?
GG WP CHAMP
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On September 17 2017 01:33 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using.
I am using it and this stupid thread still showed in the left panel because I didn´t log in. Why would I want to read about the game when I can watch it online?. TL used to have some common sense, if you want your thread about the finals do it but don´t spoil people in the title.
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So sad about sOs 
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Innovation is now the GOAT?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 17 2017 04:04 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 01:33 Olli wrote:On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using. I am using it and this stupid thread still showed in the left panel because I didn´t log in. Why would I want to read about the game when I can watch it online?. TL used to have some common sense, if you want your thread about the finals do it but don´t spoil people in the title.
You can also use http://www.teamliquid.net/nospoiler/ regardless of whether you're logged in or not.
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i could care less who the GOAT or not . What impresses me is how long it took someone to win 3 GSL Titles after Nestea MVP and he who shall not be named. and lets be honest half of people thought it would be zest who would do it ...or we are counting Zest's GSL Global Champ win as a GSL Title ? Did we count the blizzcon cup as a GSL Title for he who shall not be named ?
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On September 17 2017 01:33 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using.
Thank you. Where? It's not in edit profile.
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On September 17 2017 05:03 Fran_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 01:33 Olli wrote:On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using. Thank you. Where? It's not in edit profile.
front page underneath the main picture of the page.
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On September 17 2017 04:44 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 04:04 Malongo wrote:On September 17 2017 01:33 Olli wrote:On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? There's a hide spoiler feature you're not using. I am using it and this stupid thread still showed in the left panel because I didn´t log in. Why would I want to read about the game when I can watch it online?. TL used to have some common sense, if you want your thread about the finals do it but don´t spoil people in the title. You can also use http://www.teamliquid.net/nospoiler/ regardless of whether you're logged in or not.
This works great. Thanks!
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On September 17 2017 04:54 Carminedust wrote:
i could care less who the GOAT or not . What impresses me is how long it took someone to win 3 GSL Titles after Nestea MVP and he who shall not be named. and lets be honest half of people thought it would be zest who would do it ...or we are counting Zest's GSL Global Champ win as a GSL Title ? Did we count the blizzcon cup as a GSL Title for he who shall not be named ?
Well it's a lot harder when there are more top level players and only 2-3 GSLs a year instead of 9
GSL global championship and blizzard cup should not count
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
The more impressive part is that Whirlwind lasted longer than every GOAT candidate.
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GOAT cannot be a player, who has not won BlizzCon three times.
Howgh!
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On September 17 2017 04:54 Carminedust wrote:
i could care less who the GOAT or not . What impresses me is how long it took someone to win 3 GSL Titles after Nestea MVP and he who shall not be named. and lets be honest half of people thought it would be zest who would do it ...or we are counting Zest's GSL Global Champ win as a GSL Title ? Did we count the blizzcon cup as a GSL Title for he who shall not be named ?
Life only won 2 GSL Code S titles....
He won a Blizzard Cup too, but that's not a Code S title any more than the GSL World Championship Mvp won, or the GSL Global Championship Zest won, or the GSL vs the World INnoVation won.
Mvp, Nestea, and now INnoVation are the only ones who have won 3 GSL Code S titles.
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On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title?
Seriously, how hard is it to just not visit a forum if you don't want spoilers?
Congrats to Innovation! Glad to see he's still a badass.
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On September 17 2017 05:41 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 01:18 Fran_ wrote:
Seriously, spoilers. How hard is it not to spoil the result in the title? Seriously, how hard is it to just not visit a forum if you don't want spoilers? Congrats to Innovation! Glad to see he's still a badass.
I just can't believe that people still haven't figured out the spoiler free thing.
That went pretty much the way I thought it was going to all I can say is inno better take the whole thing now!
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On September 17 2017 05:40 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 04:54 Carminedust wrote:
i could care less who the GOAT or not . What impresses me is how long it took someone to win 3 GSL Titles after Nestea MVP and he who shall not be named. and lets be honest half of people thought it would be zest who would do it ...or we are counting Zest's GSL Global Champ win as a GSL Title ? Did we count the blizzcon cup as a GSL Title for he who shall not be named ? Life only won 2 GSL Code S titles.... He won a Blizzard Cup too, but that's not a Code S title any more than the GSL World Championship Mvp won, or the GSL Global Championship Zest won, or the GSL vs the World INnoVation won. Mvp, Nestea, and now INnoVation are the only ones who have won 3 GSL Code S titles.
With the LoTV's Ultra, Life could have won 5 more GSL sadly
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On September 17 2017 04:54 Carminedust wrote:
Mvp, Nestea, and now INnoVation are the only ones who have won 3 GSL Code S titles.
Thought that MC had 3 so I had to double check...then I remembered Seed. RIP
Congrats Inno! You'll always be 2nd on my list of best Terrans after MMA 
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On September 17 2017 06:13 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 05:40 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 04:54 Carminedust wrote:
i could care less who the GOAT or not . What impresses me is how long it took someone to win 3 GSL Titles after Nestea MVP and he who shall not be named. and lets be honest half of people thought it would be zest who would do it ...or we are counting Zest's GSL Global Champ win as a GSL Title ? Did we count the blizzcon cup as a GSL Title for he who shall not be named ? Life only won 2 GSL Code S titles.... He won a Blizzard Cup too, but that's not a Code S title any more than the GSL World Championship Mvp won, or the GSL Global Championship Zest won, or the GSL vs the World INnoVation won. Mvp, Nestea, and now INnoVation are the only ones who have won 3 GSL Code S titles. With the LoTV's Ultra, Life could have won 5 more GSL sadly
and with 9 gsl per year, inno would have won 10 more GSL sadly
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Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry
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Sad that SoS lost, but congrats Inno. Cementing that legacy.
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The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again.
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On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again.
Oh yeah i agree with this. His results in code s speak louder than antifans (and i really don't like him/his gameplay)
You don't produce these results while not being good. His "base skill" (whatever that means exactly) might be lower than Inno's for example, but he made it a close series and he could have won it for sure.
Respect! I wouldn't even be surprised if sOs wins blizzcon (if he makes it and i actually kinda hope he does at this point)
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On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again.
Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and clueless today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3.
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On September 17 2017 07:20 DieuCure wrote:
Happy birthday
Thanks
On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3.
Well Innovation's TvP didn't look impressive in SSL tbh. sOs made him play this way though, i think it's unreasonable to say that Inno played way below his level and that's the only reason sOs made it close
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Congratulations to Innovation.
I'm sad for sOs since I wanted to see him at BlizzCon.
Not winning game 2 where he had the advantage, cost sOs the series.
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On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3.
TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here?
"This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win
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On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win
Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here.
All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
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Stats and Classic would approach the games differently in the first place
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On September 17 2017 07:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Stats and Classic would approach the games differently in the first place
Happy Birthday
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On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning.
If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field.
I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style.
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On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
It was not at all mediocre. It was extremely high level. Even the short games. Game 1 for example looks dumb but the reason it looked like that is sOs already knew what Innovation was going to do through studying his playstyle, that all happens off-screen, he knew the exact time to attack to completely dismantle the build. It looked like Inno didn't know what he was doing but only because sOs was incredibly precise and controlled the game completely. You can see in Game 7 how that game could have looked, you see the power of Inno's build in Game 1 if it goes uncontested, and suddenly you go "Oh". The game where Inno moved out to kill the proxy and sOs built another proxy and flanked him is also deceptively deep as it was won with a strong tactical play rather than micro or macro. sOs also pulled out his mass expand/speedlots build that i've literally never seen in a broadcasted game ever. It's completely new and nobody has ever played like this in SC2. Builds like that could change the metagame forever if they become popular. Only the last two games were, uh, questionable
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On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style.
No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
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sOs is great at strategies and mindgames but his skill is not really top lvl, and I don't mean to say he is "bad", but you can see how good he could be if he can polish his mechanics or micro at some engages. He reminds me myself when I had really good strategies back in WoL but at some point in the engage y was mainly praying to win instead microing lol
He is really a great player but sometimes it saddens me how off his micro at engages feels, I hope he can improve that aspect a lot and then nobody could be called "the best protoss" instead of him.
On the other hand... congrats to Inno for winning and becoming seriously the GOAT, I was absolutely astonish when watching him survive and even come back from some extremely hard situations in those games, he really deserved to win at the end.
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On September 17 2017 08:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 07:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Stats and Classic would approach the games differently in the first place Happy Birthday
Thank you!
On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
I mean there were weird decisions but maybe it makes sense for sOs' gameplan :D But yeah no idea what exactly his thought process was in that specific example.
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On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
I assume sOs simply misread the situation. It's easy to be critical when we have perfect vision of everything, supply counts, production tabs, etc. Players make mistakes, and sOs made one when he decided to take the 3rd.
My guess is that he thought Inno was going super-greedy on his side of the map because the first push failed to kill the natural Nexus. If that were the case, Inno's forces would just posture and poke, and the correct decision for sOs would be to expand.
In any case, moves like that are par for the course when sOs is playing. Normal players take small risks for small rewards. sOs gambles the whole game on crazy decisions all the time.
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On September 17 2017 08:21 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 08:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 17 2017 07:39 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:31 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 07:20 Morbidius wrote:On September 17 2017 07:13 mbriantyne wrote:
The idea that sOs is not a great player is ridiculous. It is one thing to dislike his style. That is fine. But to claim that he has not been one of the best players over the years is nonsense. A big congratulations to INnoVation. He deserves this win, but anyone who tries to tell himself that Inno was head and shoulders above sOs is delusional. You may not like how sOs plays, but that was an incredibly close series that turned on a few key moments. It took everything Inno had to survive this finals, Inno was the best player of this GSL because he is the one holding the trophy at the end. Any arguments over who is good and who is not based on your playstyle preferences is silly. sOs has had a great run making 2 finals and a semi out of the last 4 GSL's. He has not performed well outside of those tournaments since IEM Taipei 2016. He can erase a lot of those bad memories if he manages to perform well at ST2. It would be a lot of fun to see him at Blizzcon again. Innovation played one of his worse PvT series this year, looked really bad and lost today. While sOs was playing the games of his life. Inno still won 4-3. TvP is Inno's weakest matchup, but are you really gonna try to devalue sOs's achievement here? "This player's acheivements mean nothing because their opponent played worse than they could have" smh. You can say that about almost any win Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. That's the whole point of sOs's MO, to make games ugly and dirty and confusing, because that's where he thrives. Stats would have played a straight-up macro game against Inno because that is where Stats is strongest, and that is what gives Stats the best chance of winning. If sOs tried to play like Stats, Inno would roflstomp him. Macro games are Inno's greatest strength. Which is why sOs did his best to avoid fighting Inno on a level playing field. I dislike sOs's playstyle and would much prefer Stats to have been in the final, but it is disingenuous to claim that Inno was playing horribly. Forcing Inno to play horribly is the whole point of sOs's style. No need to be a macro god to know not to take a third while proxy cyclones are building right outside it.
Well obviously as an observer it's clear to see. From sOs's perspective he may have thought Inno was expanding and he had held the agression. Plus he was floating a lot of minerals anyway
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Once again a terran. Surprise, surprise.............
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All this SoS hate in one thread, wow... being subtle about too. SoS's play style is sooo much more entertaining than the same old max out and fight style with little harassment in-between games.
You know the s in rts stands for strategy right?
SoS's 7 different builds > innovations three builds. What a great players.
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Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here.
All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
People usually forget SC is a strategy game. Inno strategy is play estandar macro games, the field where he is almost unbeatable thanks to his mechanics. sOs likes to play mind/dirty/(call it whatever you want) games, and his playstyle is almost entirely focused on making this succed. From a strategy point of view, sOs is a greater player than Inno, but Inno is a greater player when it comes to mechanics. Say this finals had a mediocre level when two different strategies goes to a pretty close 4-3 is nonsense.
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On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry
Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life.
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On September 17 2017 09:22 youngjiddle wrote:
All this SoS hate in one thread, wow... being subtle about too. SoS's play style is sooo much more entertaining than the same old max out and fight style with little harassment in-between games.
You know the s in rts stands for strategy right?
SoS's 7 different builds > innovations three builds. What a great players.
"SoS"
............
REEEEEEE
It is "sOs." If you call yourself a fan of the player, the least you can do is get his name right.
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On September 17 2017 09:36 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life.
"nowhere near as dominant as Inno did" well that's just incorrect. Zest won GSL last year going 22-3 in the whole event. Inno just went 20-13 in his.
Zest in 2014 was basically as dominant as Inno is now. Like I said, only him, MVP, and now Inno have won 3 korean events in the same year. He also had an insane peak in 2014 that featured one of the most dominant GSL runs of all time.
And Life only has 2 Code S titles btw. People forget almost all his wins came from outside korea
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On September 17 2017 10:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 09:36 ParksonVN wrote:On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life. "nowhere near as dominant as Inno did" well that's just incorrect. Zest won GSL last year going 22-3 in the whole event. Inno just went 20-13 in his. Zest in 2014 was basically as dominant as Inno is now. Like I said, only him, MVP, and now Inno have won 3 korean events in the same year. He also had an insane peak in 2014 that featured one of the most dominant GSL runs of all time. And Life only has 2 Code S titles btw. People forget almost all his wins came from outside korea
Inno was just as dominant as Zest was in 2014, they both won gsl while Zest is almost irrelevant this year.
The reason why Life could be par with Inno and clearly above Zest is that he won Blizzcon and also was the leading player of his own race for a long period, just like Inno for Terran, while there were tons of Protosses were on Zest's level: Rain, Classic, sOs, Stats. I mean we couldn't find any Zerg or Terran could play on the same levels of Life and Inno in their prime eras and it didn't apply for Zest.
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This was a FANTASTIC series!
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Both players played magnificently, to the best of their strengths.
sOs is an agent of chaos - like the Joker.
Inno is analytical, methodological and unbending - like Batman.
And the series turned out just like 'The Dark Knight'. Just as Batman was stretched to his moral limits, Inno was stretched to his mechanical limits. No amount of raw skill can effectively counter sOs' mad genius (ninja expos, proxies, fake-outs, econ greed, etc.). In G5, sOs gambled hard with BW-esque Refugee Toss strat - and it worked brilliantly. In the final two games, however, Inno really wised up and anticipated sOs' moves with precision (G6 - the god-sense scan on the right of sOs' army where his DTs were lurking; G7 - the marine scout catching sight of the hidden 5 o'clock expo).
sOs nearly prevailed with his chaotic play-style. But in the end, Inno restored order. Unlike TDK, sOs did not get the last laugh.
Brilliant performance for both sides! Should go down in SC2 history as one of the greatest finals!
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Is INnoVation the clear GOAT now?
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On September 17 2017 12:39 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Is INnoVation the clear GOAT now?
I would say that Inno is GOAT, but I am a fan of his. Others might not agree, and Mvp+Life still have decent cases for GOAT themselves. While Inno has won the most Starleagues and most Korean tournaments, he still has fewer overall trophies.
To make himself incontestably GOAT, I'd say that Inno has to win at least one more Starleague plus two more weekenders. That would put him at five Starleagues and eleven total trophies, meaning most Starleagues and most trophies. If Inno wins Blizzcon, the associated PR and hype would also go a long way towards cementing his GOAT status.
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He already has the most Starleagues. He just needs a few more tournaments. Blizzcon would be amazing. But we all know sOs wins that by cannon rushing Dark 4 games straight.
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Such a great series but ughhh that last game was so disheartening. sOs had to play so out of his mind just to get to three wins then he just crumbles to a tank push. Honestly if game two went as it should have after the early/mid game he would have taken it. It was like watching the fight in Rocky 4 against the Russian except with Rocky losing. Man, innovation is too good.
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What does GOAT stand for?
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On September 17 2017 09:31 nomito wrote:Show nested quote +Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here.
All in all, this was a pretty low level finals. People usually forget SC is a strategy game. Inno strategy is play estandar macro games, the field where he is almost unbeatable thanks to his mechanics. sOs likes to play mind/dirty/(call it whatever you want) games, and his playstyle is almost entirely focused on making this succed. From a strategy point of view, sOs is a greater player than Inno, but Inno is a greater player when it comes to mechanics. Say this finals had a mediocre level when two different strategies goes to a pretty close 4-3 is nonsense.
the greatest player isn't the most macro oriented, micro oriented or mind oriented: it's the player who win. INnoVation won. It's his third Premier Tournament win in 2017. This is just insane, he is the better player overall. (Againt Dark he showed that he can also prepare very well, but he seems more helpless against Protoss, that being said, he still won against sOs.)
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The goat discussion is now settled. I doubt Innovation will ever be surpassed.
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On September 17 2017 11:42 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 10:23 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 09:36 ParksonVN wrote:On September 17 2017 06:49 Fango wrote:
Inno has won 3 premier events in korea this year. He now matches MVP and Zest for the record iirc. With potential to beat it if he wins ST2 or any other event that happens
edit: Inno really looks in his prime now. It's a shame the other GOAT contenders aren't around to challenge him (MVP, Life, Zest). If they were we could have some serious top level rivalry Comparing Zest to Inno is ridiculous, Zest only has 2 code S title and nowhere as dominant as Inno did. The only 2 guys are worthy comparing to Inno are MVP and Life. "nowhere near as dominant as Inno did" well that's just incorrect. Zest won GSL last year going 22-3 in the whole event. Inno just went 20-13 in his. Zest in 2014 was basically as dominant as Inno is now. Like I said, only him, MVP, and now Inno have won 3 korean events in the same year. He also had an insane peak in 2014 that featured one of the most dominant GSL runs of all time. And Life only has 2 Code S titles btw. People forget almost all his wins came from outside korea Inno was just as dominant as Zest was in 2014, they both won gsl while Zest is almost irrelevant this year. The reason why Life could be par with Inno and clearly above Zest is that he won Blizzcon and also was the leading player of his own race for a long period, just like Inno for Terran, while there were tons of Protosses were on Zest's level: Rain, Classic, sOs, Stats. I mean we couldn't find any Zerg or Terran could play on the same levels of Life and Inno in their prime eras and it didn't apply for Zest.
Inno was not as dominent as Zest in 2014. That's just factually wrong. He won GSL S3 and that was it. Like saying gumiho is as dominent as Inno this year because he won a GSL. Lets compare the actual runs
There were 7 top tier korean events in 2014 (3 GSL, proleague, hot6, kespa, GSL global champ). Zest won 4 of them, and got 2 semifinals and a ro8 in the rest
Compare that to this year. There's been 7 top tier korean events so far (3 GSL, 2 SSL, ST, GSLvsTW), Inno has won 3 of them, got top 5 in another, a ro8, and 2 ro16's in the rest.
When you factor in that they also won GSLs in other years (Zest in 2016, Inno in 2014/15), and they both have had a year of non-existant results (zest in 2017, Inno in 2016). Their careers are quite comparable. Inno does have the edge ofc with his extra GSL and stuff.
And yes there were plenty of other good protosses over the years but the same could be said for zerg or terran. Maru and MVP had times where they were unstoppable. soO, ByuL, and Dark all had times where they outshined every other zerg by a mile. Rain, Classic, and sOs also had times where they looked like the best protoss. Doesn't change the fact that at their peaks, Life, Inno, and Zest could dominate tournaments harder than anyone else in their race.
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On September 17 2017 21:59 opisska wrote:
The goat discussion is now settled. I doubt Innovation will ever be surpassed.
Don't worry just go on reddit and people will convince you ByuN is the GOAT somehow
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On September 17 2017 22:13 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 21:59 opisska wrote:
The goat discussion is now settled. I doubt Innovation will ever be surpassed. Don't worry just go on reddit and people will convince you ByuN is the GOAT somehow
I mean, he showed the highest skill-level of all time in game 5 against Dark at Blizzcon, right?
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Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest.
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is it possible to get replays of the finals?
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On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest.
He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then?
I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft.
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On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft.
If he is talking about mindgame / cheese then he should just watch the semi against Dark.
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On September 17 2017 23:24 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. If he is talking about mindgame / cheese then he should just watch the semi against Dark.
Do you remember the last time you were fighting a ling all-in, had two bases and a wall, and decided to a-move your army in the middle of the map so that it could get surrounded and killed? What were you, diamond?
Cause I remember the last time Inno did it.
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On September 17 2017 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:24 Mun_Su wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. If he is talking about mindgame / cheese then he should just watch the semi against Dark. Do you remember the last time you were fighting a ling all-in, had two bases and a wall, and decided to a-move your army in the middle of the map so that it could get surrounded and killed? What were you, diamond? Cause I remember the last time Inno did it.
and the Protoss who scouts Terran 2-factory Cyclone all-in and still make a 3rd Nexus ? Guess what, he's sOs. I mean everyone has horrible moments, especially for those have such long careers and countless televise matches. In the end accomplishment is what matters.
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On September 18 2017 00:02 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2017 23:24 Mun_Su wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. If he is talking about mindgame / cheese then he should just watch the semi against Dark. Do you remember the last time you were fighting a ling all-in, had two bases and a wall, and decided to a-move your army in the middle of the map so that it could get surrounded and killed? What were you, diamond? Cause I remember the last time Inno did it. and the Protoss who scouts Terran 2-factory Cyclone all-in and still make a 3rd Nexus ? Guess what, he's sOs. I mean everyone has horrible moments, especially for those have such long careers and countless televise matches. In the end accomplishment is what matters.
Everyone has horrible moments, and when those moments happen a lot you conclude that they are not just moments but evidence that the person has a weakness.
I had that with Has, I thought he had cool strategies but was mechanically average with a few mistakes, then I watched him play a little more and I saw that he was actually really bad at mechanics as opposed to having a few horrible moments like everyone else. That's how it works.
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If it was true that Inno would be so dumb/bad at tactic/strategy then he wouldn't be able to win at the highest lvl of gameplay. That's how it works.
Especially if you play mech you have to understand the game very well to make it work, Inno is a beast at both mech and bio. Q.E.D.
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On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft.
To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc
Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle)
To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive.
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On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive.
You find them more impressive because they look more impressive. Life, Maru, ByuN, they make fantastic highlight reels or top-voted Reddit clips with incredible micro that just blows people away.
Inno just wins. No flashy micro, no fancy engagements, no crazy allins. Just trophies.
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On September 17 2017 03:16 DieuCure wrote:
Poor Mvp's fanboy, the end of their illusions is inescapable, and imminent ...
Still waiting for the moment when Inno will do something relevant with Terran being the weakest race.
And pretty sad about what sOs has become. HotS sOs had both really good execution and wonky strats. LotV sOs on the other hand...
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People blaming Inno for "playing from a book" didn't see his semis or the finals of this last GSL, I never liked him because exactly how boring he was and standard play but suddenly he threw in few interesting builds no one would expect and that was awesome, only because of that I like him a lot now as a player, since someone doing the same thing over and over is annoying and uninteresting to watch
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those of you think Inno is bad at strategy/tactic are clearly not Terran players and don't know much about this game. Inno might have weakness at instant-reacting in the game, but his strategic mind, analyzing and understanding of the game/ the Terran race are one of the best, if not the best in SC2 pro scene. Terran players like ByuN, Maru are actually the ones who heavily rely on their mechanic while InnoVation - the so-called best mechanical player is the one who focuses more on strategy and game analyzing. Basically he knows every weakness and dangerous timing in all MUs and has perfect ways to play with them. If Inno only relies on his mechanic, he wouldn't have won half on his titles coz SC2 is a strategy game, no matter how good is you macro skill, if you don't know how to counter and scout, you get rekted.
On September 18 2017 02:18 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. You find them more impressive because they look more impressive. Life, Maru, ByuN, they make fantastic highlight reels or top-voted Reddit clips with incredible micro that just blows people away. Inno just wins. No flashy micro, no fancy engagements, no crazy allins. Just trophies.
the same with Flash, personally i prefer being a fan of someone i can learn from and teach me how to be success, like Inno. Of course fancy moments from ByuN, Maru are impressive, but you learn nothing from them. I bet most of the Terran players out there learn the most from InnoVation's play amongs all the Terran pros.
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On September 18 2017 02:18 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. You find them more impressive because they look more impressive. Life, Maru, ByuN, they make fantastic highlight reels or top-voted Reddit clips with incredible micro that just blows people away. Inno just wins. No flashy micro, no fancy engagements, no crazy allins. Just trophies.
It's not just about fancy micro though. It's about doing what no other player can (ingame). Rain was incredible to watch because he took the defensive toss to a whole new level for example. Maru was incredible to watch because there was a time he was pretty much only terran that could beat protoss (and not just beat, he dominated them). sOs had games where he outsmarted his opponents on a level they never realise. Even TY (and Dear at his peak) is a positional god in the lategame.
I feel like I could analyse those guys games for hours on end, that's what make them stand out to me personally
With Inno (most of the time) I feel like I've seen it all before. His TvP wins look like regular TvP wins, his TvZ wins look like standard TvZ wins. He just gets them more than anyone else. I'm blown away by his results, not his actual gameplay
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On September 18 2017 02:36 ParksonVN wrote:
the same with Flash, personally i prefer being a fan of someone i can learn from and teach me how to be success, like Inno. Of course fancy moments from ByuN, Maru are impressive, but you learn nothing from them. I bet most of the Terran players out there learn the most from InnoVation's play amongs all the Terran pros.
That's because Inno is the definition of a standard terran. He chooses the most optimal builds and practices them to perfection. If you want to get good with terran just try and copy him. But tbh you can do that with any top level player they're all 1000x better than anyone else
To say you learn nothing from ByuN or Maru is not true. They've both had times where they were the best terran in the world. And both shown techniques and strategies that no one else did
Remember when ByuN showed every terran how to get 3RR nerfed? Or why the 2-1-1 was the best TvZ opening in LoTV for so long? Remember when every terran was losing to protoss and Maru found a way to win with an entirely different approach? Or when he showed people that you didn't have to mass vikings if you wanted to beat colossus. Those guys aren't just "front page of reddit clip" material, they've innovated the way terran is played many times
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On September 17 2017 09:31 nomito wrote:
Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here.
All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
Did you forget, perhaps, that sOs 3-0 Stats in semifinals?
Just 'cuz it looks boring to watch doesn't mean it's low-quality play. I woudn't use the word "mediocre" here.
And do you seriously think it would have been more fun to watch something like another Neeb 4-0 Snute or Inno 4-0 TY?
Reaching game 7 in a best-of-7 basically means both players are equally matched at the time. You can't say this about a Bo5 or lower.
INnoVation didn't look worse because he was playing worse but because sOs was playing out of his mind. If INnoVation were like Stats, he would have been defeated 4-0 no problem.
The games looked "mediocre" to you because the players weren't putting on a show for fans. They were duking it out for $35k. These are two players of whom it is repeatedly said that they just know what it takes to win and will do that.
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How much tax does INnovation pay on prize money in S. Korea?
Poll: How much S. Korea prize tax does INnoVation pay?0% : Income tax only (2) 25% 5% : Duty tax (0) 0% 10% : Regulation tax (1) 13% 15% : Excise tax (0) 0% 20% : Luxury tax (0) 0% 25% : Entertainment tax (0) 0% 50% : You're not allowed to win this frequently (5) 63% 8 total votes Your vote: How much S. Korea prize tax does INnoVation pay? (Vote): 0% : Income tax only
(Vote): 5% : Duty tax
(Vote): 10% : Regulation tax
(Vote): 15% : Excise tax
(Vote): 20% : Luxury tax
(Vote): 25% : Entertainment tax
(Vote): 50% : You're not allowed to win this frequently
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On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive.
I find innovation to be the most entertaining player, and the most impressive.
life was boring as hell to watch. maru's unimpressive in macro games and mech. rain was very one dimensional and predictable.
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On September 18 2017 03:15 harmonyxtc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. I find innovation to be the most entertaining player, and the most impressive. life was boring as hell to watch. maru's unimpressive in macro games and mech. rain was very one dimensional and predictable.
I feel like you missed out on a lot of HoTS to say all that
I mean I agree Rain was kinda one dimensional, but he was still glorious to watch as no one before him reached that level. Maru's focus was the early/midgame but he had his fair share of insane macro series in all 3 matchups. And Life was boring to watch? First time I've heard that.
In fact Maru vs Life is, to this day, the most watched SC2 series of all time so I guess that's not a popular opinion
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I think it is weird that you liked Rain so much when his style would be comparable to Inno's. Simple, solid play because they understand the game so well.
I get Maru and Life but bringing up Rain kinda destroys the point imo
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Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few.
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Rain was impressive, but not really entertaining.
Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
Life was the God of Zerg, he could be agressive, he could macro, he could mindgame... He was my favourite player before he fucked up.
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On September 18 2017 03:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I think it is weird that you liked Rain so much when his style would be comparable to Inno's. Simple, solid play because they understand the game so well.
I get Maru and Life but brining up Rain kinda destroys the point imo
Rain seemed to play in a way that other tosses couldn't quite reach. He optimised how to play defensively on the highest level. Managing to win through his awareness and positioning. It was really interesting to watch
My point was that Inno's wins look like standard wins for each matchup, just that Inno got them more than anyone else. He hasn't really found a style that's entirely his own, he just plays whatever is the standard strategies most likely to win.
I'm not trying to hate on him or anything. I'm just saying personally, I find it more entertaining to watch players that can win a way no one else can
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote:
Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few.
INnoVation opened 3CC and took no damage at all from the DT drop. By the time sOs did his DT/charge all-in, INnoVation's early economy had already translated into a strong enough army to defend easily.
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On September 18 2017 03:36 Sakat wrote:
Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
His struggle to transition is always the biggest issue for him.
Although it was during a time when every terran was stuggling, a lot, and Maru had decided to play differently (focus on mines and aggression with a heavy medivac count, instead of transitioning to the normal mass viking/ghost). Using that style he managed to crush toss after toss dispite imbalances in the matchup. Although in some games, his lack of expirence in transitioning led to his downfall.
While Inno has found more success over his career, he only tended to win when terran was favoured, or at least doing well. Maru was the one who found a way to win against protoss when no other player could. As a terran during HoTS, it was inspiring to watch. That was what made him one of the best players, it wasn't just the "highlight reel" micro people remember him for. He truly innovated how to play
(I'm not trying to devalue Inno's acheivements btw, I'm just saying why I personally prefer other players)
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On September 18 2017 03:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote:
Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few. INnoVation opened 3CC and took no damage at all from the DT drop. By the time sOs did his DT/charge all-in, INnoVation's early economy had already translated into a strong enough army to defend easily.
Also in the crucial engagement (when Inno was taking his third), Inno scanned the DTs before they attacked and sOs kinda vacillated, first pulling the DTs back a bit before charging and blinking. This let Inno's bio ball get 2-3 seconds of free damage. Which is a lot.
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On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote:
Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few.
INno went for a quick 3rd CC which is not only very rare but also basically a BO win.
E : for some reason I didn't see Olli's post
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On September 18 2017 04:01 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote:
Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few. INno went for a quick 3rd CC which is not only very rare but also basically a BO win. E : for some reason I didn't see Olli's post
I think it's quite rare to open 3CC in the 6th game of a bo7 against sOs, especially when the sOs cheesed you a lot during the serie...
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Does anyone know where I can find that cool preview/trailer of the finals on YouTube? The one that ends with INnoVation and sOs looking at each other in a field. Thanks.
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The narrative Inno wins only when terran is strong is so ridiculous.
The game was far more imbalance when MVP won (remember Gom TvT ?) his first three GSL. Same for the first GSL of Zest when Protoss only uses blink staler all in. And Life has beaten MVP for his first GSL when it was infestor broodlord party at the end of WOL.
Just few exemples, still a huge fan of these great players.
Also the narrative Inno is just a stupid mechanical beast is wrong. He was the first to use or to perfect a lot of builds. Few exemples that comes to my mind :
- Parad Push against Zerg with marines, mines, marauders, medivac
- Hellbat drop
- SCV Push against protoss in HOTS (MVP was the first to use it in WOL if i remember correctly)
- Mech against Zerg with BC, Raven in the end of HOTS (there was also a crazy mech game vs DRG in a RO 8 game 1 of his 2014 or 2015 Season 3 GSL)
- One of the first to perfect mech against terran in HOTS
There was also a lot of original builds he uses only one time (drilling claws mines drop against Zest RO 8 GSL, Two starport banshee...)
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 18 2017 03:36 Sakat wrote:
Rain was impressive, but not really entertaining.
Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
Life was the God of Zerg, he could be agressive, he could macro, he could mindgame... He was my favourite player before he fucked up.
But those nergasms when Maru was picking colossus after colossus, sending multiple armies over 3 screens that even max zoom out couldn't comprehend.
And Maru had some impressive macro games too.
vs. Myungsik(in spoiler), vs. Classic(in spoiler), vs. Dear...
+ Show Spoiler +
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Bomber was the first one to use scv pulls in HotS and hellbat drops were used since the beta.
But other builds Inno popularized are:
-Hellion Cyclone into mech against Zerg
-2 factory tank hellbat liberator push in tvt
-2/1/1 with double tank follow-up in TvZ (all in 2016)
Edit: referring to Frenchy91
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On September 18 2017 16:51 Frenchy91 wrote:
The narrative Inno wins only when terran is strong is so ridiculous.
The game was far more imbalance when MVP won (remember Gom TvT ?) his first three GSL. Same for the first GSL of Zest when Protoss only uses blink staler all in. And Life has beaten MVP for his first GSL when it was infestor broodlord party at the end of WOL.
Just few exemples, still a huge fan of these great players.
Also the narrative Inno is just a stupid mechanical beast is wrong. He was the first to use or to perfect a lot of builds. Few exemples that comes to my mind :
- Parad Push against Zerg with marines, mines, marauders, medivac
- Hellbat drop
- SCV Push against protoss in HOTS (MVP was the first to use it in WOL if i remember correctly)
- Mech against Zerg with BC, Raven in the end of HOTS (there was also a crazy mech game vs DRG in a RO 8 game 1 of his 2014 or 2015 Season 3 GSL)
- One of the first to perfect mech against terran in HOTS
There was also a lot of original builds he uses only one time (drilling claws mines drop against Zest RO 8 GSL, Two starport banshee...)
Yes inno is actually creating and perfecting builds. But you totally dodged the point especially when we talk about Mvp. Both his win vs Squirtle and loss in finale vs Life are perfect exemple of a player still performing at the top level despite Terran being in a bad state. Something Inno has never done. Every single peak of Inno's dominance come from a dominance of Terran in general in Korea.
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INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this GSL were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others.
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On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote:
Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive.
wtf? Rain is the protoss equivalent of INnoVation lol
Rain is still the only player to this day to have won an OSL and a GSL, not that that's an impressive achievement in itself given that there were only 2 OSL's but still
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On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others.
this might be totally unrelated to your post
Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year
but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups
In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup
and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran.
Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest.
I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god
And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run.
Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently.
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On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently.
He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru.
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru.
Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results.
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On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results.
I don't think I have to explain to you the importance of results when measuring skill. So let me say this then - I agree Zest always got too much shit for his PvT in HotS. But you know, when the results let a player down that much, it's not hard to understand why he got that much shit. Playing well or not, 50% is bad for a pro on that level.
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If we talk about skill only then TY, Taeja and Cure are GOAT.
If results : INno
2010-2012 era =/= skill
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never thought a mini-rant about how people look down on Neebs's kespa cup win compared to Zest's got us to Taeja, Cure and TY
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Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him)
edit: also, many players have a weak matchup. Inno's TvT was awful until recently, Dark's ZvZ was bad for most of his career, soO can't win against terran etc. Doesn't take away from the fact they can still win tournaments (well maybe not soO)
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On September 18 2017 23:03 Fango wrote:
Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him)
in his 2014 GSL he played only one PvT vs Maru and he lost it 2-1
Neeb also beat Rogue and Pet though, and stats is one of the strongest PvP players
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On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results.
If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments.
I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
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On September 18 2017 23:09 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:03 Fango wrote:
Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him) in his 2014 GSL he played only one PvT vs Maru and he lost it 2-1 Neeb also beat Rogue and Pet though, and stats is one of the strongest PvP players
Rogue and Pet were trash. Beating them doesn't indicate he was at a high level at all. And like I said, Neeb could only go toe-to-toe with top level players in PvP, and with a specific PvP meta. He never repeated this result. That's why it looks like a fluke.
Zest was winning korean events for an entire year, kespa cup only added another layer to his dominence
You can't disregard a win because they avoided a weak matchup. Almost every tournament win has bracket luck to some extent. Inno has won events avoiding TvT, herO has avoided PvP for a lot of his career etc etc
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did.
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On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
This is true to some extent though. He was okay at PvT, could win against top terrans from time to time. But his PvZ and PvP were unrivaled, which is what made PvT his weak point.
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Austria24417 Posts
That's the thing, his PvT was pretty mediocre overall, but 56% against top Korean opposition is not as bad as people make it out to be, especially considering the specifics of that statistic. It wouldn't have won him championships though like his other two match-ups did at times. That's the contrast I'm talking about.
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On September 18 2017 23:39 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous. And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did.
It isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT "wasn't that bad" but i think you were trying to do a bit more here
He was 31-31 in offline PvT in 2014 with losses against MKP and Bbyong as well. People acted like he is the worst PvT player ever back then and that might have been a bit much but he surely wasn't that great at it and your "eye test" saying otherwise doesn't convince me when the sample size is good enough and he reaches 50% there. Even if it was against some of the best TvPers, you should still win sometimes if you are actually pretty good at the matchup
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 18 2017 23:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:39 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote:
INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends.
You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance.
Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place.
And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous. And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did. It isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT "wasn't that bad" but i think you were trying to do a bit more here He was 31-31 in offline PvT in 2014 with losses against MKP and Bbyong as well. People acted like he is the worst PvT player ever back then and that might have been a bit much but he surely wasn't that great at it and your "eye test" saying otherwise doesn't convince me when the sample size is good enough and he reaches 50% there. Even if it was against some of the best TvPers, you should still win sometimes if you are actually pretty good at the matchup
He did beat Maru a few times, and beat INnoVation whenever they met. Bbyong wasn't a bad player at the time. So it really isn't like he was terrible at the matchup. And he wasn't even bad at it. He struggled against very specific players mostly.
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I don't understand how this conversation got here, but as far as Zest's PvT in 2014 goes, it wasn't terrible but it wasn't great either. Mediocre is probably the best word to describe it.
His PvT was really weak relative to his other matchups though, which is probably why he got so much shit for it.
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Didn't he improve his PvT in 2015? I remember him beatin Inno and Maru in a few tournaments. While his PvP/Z went down a bit until LoTV came out. He was still strong toward the end of HoTS though
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On September 19 2017 03:08 Fango wrote:
Didn't he improve his PvT in 2015? I remember him beatin Inno and Maru in a few tournaments. While his PvP/Z went down a bit until LoTV came out. He was still strong toward the end of HoTS though
2015 was pretty unremarkable for Zest aside from Katowice. He placed decently (quarterfinals iirc) in the Starleagues but no big wins. The only thing I remember about Zest in late 2015 was that Inno stomped him hard in GSL and again at Blizzcon.
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still not even close to MVP. yawn.
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On September 17 2017 12:19 RKC wrote:
Both players played magnificently, to the best of their strengths.
sOs is an agent of chaos - like the Joker.
Inno is analytical, methodological and unbending - like Batman.
And the series turned out just like 'The Dark Knight'. Just as Batman was stretched to his moral limits, Inno was stretched to his mechanical limits. No amount of raw skill can effectively counter sOs' mad genius (ninja expos, proxies, fake-outs, econ greed, etc.). In G5, sOs gambled hard with BW-esque Refugee Toss strat - and it worked brilliantly. In the final two games, however, Inno really wised up and anticipated sOs' moves with precision (G6 - the god-sense scan on the right of sOs' army where his DTs were lurking; G7 - the marine scout catching sight of the hidden 5 o'clock expo).
sOs nearly prevailed with his chaotic play-style. But in the end, Inno restored order. Unlike TDK, sOs did not get the last laugh.
Brilliant performance for both sides! Should go down in SC2 history as one of the greatest finals!
This is a real comment.
Great games
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On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn.
Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo.
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United States1876 Posts
On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo.
When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body.
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On September 22 2017 21:20 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn. Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo. When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body.
Yes so you just explained why Mvp isnt the GOAT
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On September 22 2017 21:20 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn. Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo. When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body.
Maru has been more consistent sure, but Inno's peaks were indeed higher. Maru also seemed to shine through periods of imbalance against terran, where Inno seems to slump.
Still though, no one really remembers consistency except for maybe soO. People remember tournament wins. I think Maru actually has more appearances in GSL playoffs (?), but Inno has more wins ofc
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United States1876 Posts
On September 22 2017 21:37 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 21:20 mizenhauer wrote:On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn. Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo. When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body. Maru has been more consistent sure, but Inno's peaks were indeed higher. Maru also seemed to shine through periods of imbalance against terran, where Inno seems to slump. Still though, no one really remembers consistency except for maybe soO. People remember tournament wins. I think Maru actually has more appearances in GSL playoffs (?), but Inno has more wins ofc
I think you could easily make a case that Maru's form in early 2015 was just as good or better than anything Inno, or any player for that matter, exhibited at any point in their careers.
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Because he has the best teacher ( and player ) to learn him how to play
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On September 22 2017 21:56 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 21:37 Fango wrote:On September 22 2017 21:20 mizenhauer wrote:On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn. Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo. When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body. Maru has been more consistent sure, but Inno's peaks were indeed higher. Maru also seemed to shine through periods of imbalance against terran, where Inno seems to slump. Still though, no one really remembers consistency except for maybe soO. People remember tournament wins. I think Maru actually has more appearances in GSL playoffs (?), but Inno has more wins ofc I think you could easily make a case that Maru's form in early 2015 was just as good or better than anything Inno, or any player for that matter, exhibited at any point in their careers.
easily? hell no. not even close. zest and inno had far more dominating and invincible seeming stretches.
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On September 22 2017 21:20 mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2017 12:39 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On September 20 2017 19:53 Kitaen wrote:
still not even close to MVP. yawn. Inno has been at the tippy top longer than MVP, in an era that was much more competitive imo. When you're talking about skill level, Maru has been far more consistent than INnoVation. Maru was a top two Terran from 2013 through the first half of 2017. INnoVation on the other hand was invisible for long stretches of time, including most of 2013 and all of 2016. Also, Mvp's career was ended by factors outside of his control, so his lack of longevity isn't an indictment on his skill as a player, rather the fact that he was gifted a garbage body.
Maru is definitely amazing and fun to watch and all but I wouldnt compare him to Innovation. He might have been the only relevant Terran during the blink-era but when Innovation has his peaks, he dominates everyone (early HotS, end of HotS, 2017). I also think that innovations invisibility during the blink-era was partially because he wasnt on any proleague team.
Innovations long-term consistency in achieving great results is for sure the greatest there is now. If there ever was a player to compete with him it was Life. Not Mvp. Its been 5 years of SC2 since his last real achievement and im sure we can all agree that the skill-level has increased immensely over the years and after the kespa switch.
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innovation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from?
does GSL vs World count as 1?
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On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:
innovation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from?
does GSL vs World count as 1?
Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles.
Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans)
That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs.
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On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs.
And people are fucking right.
Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies
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France12886 Posts
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?)
So basically in LotV INno, TY and ByuN have been far better terrans.
Mvp might have been injured and all, but I don't think he would have shone in LotV had he remained healthy and was still playing, because his strengths aren't enough to win nowadays.
On the other hand, INno is good enough in the strategy part to be able to sustain bo7 / finals, and is mechanically sound enough to be able to win in any match-up.
His game 2 against sOs in this finals is a great example: strategically it's nothing impressive (it's hard to be impressive strategically on LotV tho) but mechanically it was a brillant display.
Since INno can keep on playing, and the last sc2 extension favors such players, mvp's legacy has already been defeated by INno's.
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On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies
Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches)
On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?)
In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right
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TY's year is better than Maru's year.
And i dont think Maru is #2 terran on Starcraft 2 overall, considering INno is #2.
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On September 25 2017 00:26 DieuCure wrote:
TY's year is better than Maru's year.
And i dont think Maru is #2 terran on Starcraft 2 overall, considering INno is #2.
behind Cure?
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Is it even a question or you kidding me?
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On September 25 2017 00:26 DieuCure wrote:
TY's year is better than Maru's year.
Him and maru are almost the same in terms of results in korea (aka if you take away the fact TY was at katowice). Maru actually got further in SSL and GSL, but TY did better in the weekenders.
In terms of 2017, I think the terran pecking order goes Inno>TY>gumiho>maru>byun>aLive
Edit: while I'm at it. Zerg is Dark>soO>Rogue>Solar>ByuL. And protoss is Stats>sOs>Classic>herO>Zest
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On September 25 2017 00:31 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 00:26 DieuCure wrote:
TY's year is better than Maru's year. Him and maru are almost the same in terms of results in korea (aka if you take away the fact TY was at katowice). Maru actually got further in SSL and GSL, but TY did better in the weekenders. In terms of 2017, I think the terran pecking order goes Inno>TY>gumiho>maru>byun>aLive
WeSG -> TY was above, Katowice TY above too sad that Maru was one map away from qualifying against aLive.
And GSL's runs were much easier for Maru, the players he played werent so strong if you compare with TY's opponents, he was really lucky in the groups phases and ro8.
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France12886 Posts
On September 25 2017 00:16 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches) Show nested quote +On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?) In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right
I'm talking about LotV so 2016+2017 basically, since ByuN won Blizzcon and a GSL it's better result than what Maru achieved.
Basically he is a great terran but he didn't go far enough in starleagues so we forget him :/.
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On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:
innovation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from?
does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs.
mvp won 4 gsl not 3 not sure where ppl get these fact from? innovation has to win one more to tie with MVP
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Lol Gsl vs the world's 2011 lineup was really bad.
"Highest skilled era"
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GSl vs the world really shouldn't count. It's objectively weaker than almost any other korean tournament.
The "GSL Cups" that Life and Zest won shouldn't count either, although they were still better than the half foreigner events Inno and MVP won
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On September 25 2017 02:19 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 00:16 Fango wrote:On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches) On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?) In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right I'm talking about LotV so 2016+2017 basically, since ByuN won Blizzcon and a GSL it's better result than what Maru achieved. Basically he is a great terran but he didn't go far enough in starleagues so we forget him :/.
So if you don't get to a starleague final you're "basically non existant" ?
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On September 25 2017 08:42 Fango wrote:
GSl vs the world really shouldn't count. It's objectively weaker than almost any other korean tournament.
The "GSL Cups" that Life and Zest won shouldn't count either, although they were still better than the half foreigner events Inno and MVP won
Ro8 was really stacked this year
The 2011 ro8 was a joke seriously
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On September 25 2017 08:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 02:19 Poopi wrote:On September 25 2017 00:16 Fango wrote:On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches) On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?) In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right I'm talking about LotV so 2016+2017 basically, since ByuN won Blizzcon and a GSL it's better result than what Maru achieved. Basically he is a great terran but he didn't go far enough in starleagues so we forget him :/. So if you don't get to a starleague final you're "basically non existant" ?
If you don't lift the trophy, you're basically nonexistent.
Unless you are soO, in which case your existence is a meme.
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On September 25 2017 08:42 Fango wrote:
GSl vs the world really shouldn't count. It's objectively weaker than almost any other korean tournament.
The "GSL Cups" that Life and Zest won shouldn't count either, although they were still better than the half foreigner events Inno and MVP won
they didn't count HOT6 for Rain and sOs but they do for Life and Zest's GSL Cup that's weird.
in my opinion, Rain and sOs' HOT6 cup were harder than Zest's GSL GC win
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 25 2017 11:35 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 08:42 Fango wrote:
GSl vs the world really shouldn't count. It's objectively weaker than almost any other korean tournament.
The "GSL Cups" that Life and Zest won shouldn't count either, although they were still better than the half foreigner events Inno and MVP won they didn't count HOT6 for Rain and sOs but they do for Life and Zest's GSL Cup that's weird. in my opinion, Rain and sOs' HOT6 cup were harder than Zest's GSL GC win
Zest's is never counted, not sure what you're talking about. Life's usually is though. There really is zero consistency with the community counting GSLs.
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I dont know if we have to count a tournament where TT1 and anypro made it to ro8 at the highest skilled era ever
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France12886 Posts
On September 25 2017 08:44 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 02:19 Poopi wrote:On September 25 2017 00:16 Fango wrote:On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches) On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?) In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right I'm talking about LotV so 2016+2017 basically, since ByuN won Blizzcon and a GSL it's better result than what Maru achieved. Basically he is a great terran but he didn't go far enough in starleagues so we forget him :/. So if you don't get to a starleague final you're "basically non existant" ?
Compared to ByuN, INno, TY, Gumiho, yes.
On September 25 2017 17:41 DieuCure wrote:
I dont know if we have to count a tournament where TT1 and anypro made it to ro8 at the highest skilled era ever
Still a far better era than currently, where the 2nd best french player in term of WCS points, is a retired player.
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Maru S1 2016 was better than Byun
Maru was better overall from the end of blizzcon to season 2 2017, so, 3/5 seasons Maru was on top of Byun.
Skill wise 2010-2012 isnt the highest skilled era, sure it was the era with more tournaments, more players, but to say that it was the most skilled era is a fabulation, and wcs points mean nothing on 7 different years
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France12886 Posts
On September 25 2017 17:54 DieuCure wrote:
Maru S1 2016 was better than Byun
Maru was better overall from the end of blizzcon to season 2 2017, so, 3/5 seasons Maru was on top of Byun.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ByuN
LotV -> gold
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maru
LotV -> no gold
Simple right? 
LotV Maru - ~142k $ (WESG...)
LotV ByuN - ~350k $
So yeah as expected, ByuN shits on Maru in LotV, which has to be expected since he was NEXExcrement
edit: and I never said 2011 was highest skilled
I don't care about such fluff?
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Yes that's what i said, Byun was better than Maru for 2 seasons / 5.
And the "fluff" wasnt meant for you 
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On September 25 2017 08:24 DieuCure wrote:
Lol Gsl vs the world's 2011 lineup was really bad.
"Highest skilled era"
in what way was it "bad"? the gsl players in 2011 were all the players who had the most amount of gsl points (that's how they got selected).. and we went 7-8 vs them in the team match
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France12886 Posts
On September 25 2017 18:02 DieuCure wrote:Yes that's what i said, Byun was better than Maru for 2 seasons / 5. And the "fluff" wasnt meant for you
ByuN was better on aligulac for probably every season, so in no metric was Maru better than ByuN in LotV except blind fanboyism ^^
Maru was good in proleague but ByuN had no team (he didn't need one to win starleagues ^^)
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I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise.
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France12886 Posts
On September 25 2017 18:16 DieuCure wrote:
I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise.
Not the same game, not the same time.
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Yes the game was easier back then, i have to add that to the comparison !
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On September 25 2017 18:16 DieuCure wrote:
I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise.
goes without saying? people play the game more, the general skill improves.. happens in any game (neeb and several other current gosus were also playing sc2 in 2011 btw)? im pretty sure hes talking about relative skill compared to their peers.
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 25 2017 18:16 DieuCure wrote:
I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise.
Because you ignore whenever I tell you that it wasn't. When I talk about the highest skill era, I talk about 2014/15. Because that's when the overall skill level, in my opinion, was highest. Not in 2011 or 2012. But I've told you that multiple times now and you keep on repeating it anyway.
As for skill comparisons in general, I find them very very hard to do when comparing different expansions. What I usually compare is the number of competitors at a high level, the competitive environment in general, the amount of strategic, mechanical, etc. mistakes I see people make in games, how hard it is to win tournaments, all that funky jazz. Comparing two different games is very hard to do. Which is why I generally agree that players should only be compared to their opposition at the time.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 25 2017 21:52 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 18:16 DieuCure wrote:
I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise. Because you ignore whenever I tell you that it wasn't. When I talk about the highest skill era, I talk about 2014/15. Because that's when the overall skill level, in my opinion, was highest. Not in 2011 or 2012. But I've told you that multiple times now and you keep on repeating it anyway. As for skill comparisons in general, I find them very very hard to do when comparing different expansions. What I usually compare is the number of competitors at a high level, the competitive environment in general, the amount of strategic, mechanical, etc. mistakes I see people make in games, how hard it is to win tournaments, all that funky jazz. Comparing two different games is very hard to do. Which is why I generally agree that players should only be compared to their opposition at the time.
Ignorance is Strength!
I think that person loves you. you have an admirer :-)
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On September 25 2017 21:52 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 18:16 DieuCure wrote:
I dont want to be a bad guy but Neeb 2017 >> You 2011 for example.
Just like INno 2017 >>> Mvp 2011.
And the 7-8 prove that. Era where 5 spines/base on 4 bases was lawful.
So i dont understand why Olli thinks it was the best era skill wise. Because you ignore whenever I tell you that it wasn't. When I talk about the highest skill era, I talk about 2014/15. Because that's when the overall skill level, in my opinion, was highest. Not in 2011 or 2012. But I've told you that multiple times now and you keep on repeating it anyway. As for skill comparisons in general, I find them very very hard to do when comparing different expansions. What I usually compare is the number of competitors at a high level, the competitive environment in general, the amount of strategic, mechanical, etc. mistakes I see people make in games, how hard it is to win tournaments, all that funky jazz. Comparing two different games is very hard to do. Which is why I generally agree that players should only be compared to their opposition at the time.
So how can Mvp be the greatest if he performed well in an era of low skill ?
And i dont see why INno 2014 would be better than INno 2017 too ...
But sure, if you speak about the tough competition, she begins in ro32 instead of code A back then.
But according to the number of tournaments, the number of champions etc, it's much harder to win a tournament nowadays, ro8 is more similar seasons after seasons than before i think. So the gap between top 8 and others is growing up.
Only gumiho made it out of INno and Stats in the regular KR season, i dont think we saw this kind of dominance except in early days. And players behind are still trying hard.
I think they are above all that has been done.
Same for foreign scene, Snute etc are still trying hard, but Neeb is just at another lvl.
So i think it's harder to win a tournament now ( 2017, not 2016 ) than before.
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Austria24417 Posts
Disagree with every single thing you said, but that's nothing new and hardly the point of this thread.
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On September 25 2017 17:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 17:54 DieuCure wrote:
Maru S1 2016 was better than Byun
Maru was better overall from the end of blizzcon to season 2 2017, so, 3/5 seasons Maru was on top of Byun. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ByuNLotV -> gold http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MaruLotV -> no gold Simple right? LotV Maru - ~142k $ (WESG...) LotV ByuN - ~350k $ So yeah as expected, ByuN shits on Maru in LotV, which has to be expected since he was NEXExcrement edit: and I never said 2011 was highest skilled I don't care about such fluff?
The point was that ByuN was only at the very top for a couple months. Whereas Maru has been consistantly high level for most of LoTV (and HoTS before it)
Also who uses earnings to judge a player's level? I guess MC in the GOAT then
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On September 25 2017 17:46 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2017 08:44 Fango wrote:On September 25 2017 02:19 Poopi wrote:On September 25 2017 00:16 Fango wrote:On September 24 2017 21:17 Mun_Su wrote:On September 24 2017 06:08 pvsnp wrote:On September 24 2017 05:32 Riner1212 wrote:INnoVation won only 3 where does the 4th one come from? does GSL vs World count as 1? Inno won 3 GSL Code S titles. Mvp won 3 GSL Code S titles. Inno won GSL vs the World. Mvp won GSL World Championship. (same format, 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans) That's why people say Inno = Mvp in GSLs. Also one can't compare Maru to INno, Maru isn't even close to INno's domination and trophies Maru is arguably the second best terran of all time behind Inno. Of course you can compare them, they both suceed in different aspects (Inno has more trophies, Maru has more consistency over patches) On September 24 2017 21:45 Poopi wrote:
Maru has been basically non existent in LotV afaik, except in proleague where he was a top terran.
Like he is probably the most overrated terran in all of LotV.
His skill has sometimes been great, but it never fully translated into individual results (closest was WESG qualifiers and tournament iirc?) In 2016, he had the best run of any player ever in a teamleague. 2017 has been disappointing sure, but to call him non existent isn't right (non existent is like Inno last year). He got gsl ro4 + 8, and finishes SSL around 5th each season. In terms of results in korea, he's done better than ByuN and similar to TY. Shame he'll probably end up 9th in wcs points and miss the cut off right I'm talking about LotV so 2016+2017 basically, since ByuN won Blizzcon and a GSL it's better result than what Maru achieved. Basically he is a great terran but he didn't go far enough in starleagues so we forget him :/. So if you don't get to a starleague final you're "basically non existant" ? Compared to ByuN, INno, TY, Gumiho, yes.
That's an idiotic definition of "non existant" then. You're basing it of hype and not skill level
I don't like using wcs points but I will to prove a point. Look at Inno in 2016, he was rank 31 in korea. Look at Cure this year, rank 37. Those are players you can call non existant. Maru is probably going to end up rank 8-9 on WCS korea this year. That puts him ahead of, aLive, Classic, Dear, Rogue, Solar, and possibly ByuN. Are those guys also basically non existant? Never heard anyone say they were
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With your correlation are you confirming that Cure will dominate the scene in 2018 Fango ?
INno was a thing in 2016, he has given us some freewins in ladder with the Cyclone build before the changes.
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EPT
