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On August 31 2017 09:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well In what way? All larva really does is creating the need of ramps and walls in the early game. That could be considered a negative but it's not a real major concern such as interfering with defenders advantage. Larva itself only limits the unit design for zerg itself, you simply cannot have high impact units like the oracle or banshee or something similar because zerg could produce a lot at once. Other than that you don't really add anything topic related, just trying to argue that the discussion itself is "ridiculous". Well no it is not which is why it comes up again and again and again. I also think warpgates being inconsistent within protoss itself is a decent point. Terran uses the same production design for everything, zerg uses the same production design for everything. Protoss does not. That alone is just inelegant, the assumed reason for that is the interesting part though. The thing is that any time people discuss this other people feel the need to simply name it "wanna be game designer" or similar things. Why not just attack the arguments? If you aren't able to do that you don't add anything of value. This "hey people at blizzard are real gamedesigners and thus they know better than you" is just a bad argument. Things like dota and counterstrike were made by forum users (basically), all that matters are the actual arguments for specific design decisions. But ofc we can call eachother stupid, that's basically what you did with this post..
Oh is that all, it only forces all bases to be designed in specific ways and limits Zerg unit design... Yeah you're not making a very good case, those are huge implications. It's not inelegant, it 's just a difference between warpgate units and robo/stargate.
They're both unique mechanics though and make the game what it is, there's no use trying to discuss it for the millionth time, you're not bringing anything new to the discussion either.
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On September 01 2017 08:25 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2017 09:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well In what way? All larva really does is creating the need of ramps and walls in the early game. That could be considered a negative but it's not a real major concern such as interfering with defenders advantage. Larva itself only limits the unit design for zerg itself, you simply cannot have high impact units like the oracle or banshee or something similar because zerg could produce a lot at once. Other than that you don't really add anything topic related, just trying to argue that the discussion itself is "ridiculous". Well no it is not which is why it comes up again and again and again. I also think warpgates being inconsistent within protoss itself is a decent point. Terran uses the same production design for everything, zerg uses the same production design for everything. Protoss does not. That alone is just inelegant, the assumed reason for that is the interesting part though. The thing is that any time people discuss this other people feel the need to simply name it "wanna be game designer" or similar things. Why not just attack the arguments? If you aren't able to do that you don't add anything of value. This "hey people at blizzard are real gamedesigners and thus they know better than you" is just a bad argument. Things like dota and counterstrike were made by forum users (basically), all that matters are the actual arguments for specific design decisions. But ofc we can call eachother stupid, that's basically what you did with this post.. Oh is that all, it only forces all bases to be designed in specific ways and limits Zerg unit design... Yeah you're not making a very good case, those are huge implications. It's not inelegant, it 's just a difference between warpgate units and robo/stargate. They're both unique mechanics though and make the game what it is, there's no use trying to discuss it for the millionth time, you're not bringing anything new to the discussion either.
Well every single design decision has an impact obviously, in the case of zerg it is ramps. But that's how the game is and it doesn't really create real problems. Warpgate creates problems all the time because it attacks defenders advantage, something integral to rts gameplay. It's a big difference.
You are obviously right that i don't bring anything new, that wasn't my intent either though. Everything has been said already, there are good articles about this, etc. Is it worth it to keep it in people's minds? I think so.
On September 01 2017 08:22 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2017 09:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well In what way? All larva really does is creating the need of ramps and walls in the early game. That could be considered a negative but it's not a real major concern such as interfering with defenders advantage. Larva itself only limits the unit design for zerg itself, you simply cannot have high impact units like the oracle or banshee or something similar because zerg could produce a lot at once. Other than that you don't really add anything topic related, just trying to argue that the discussion itself is "ridiculous". Well no it is not which is why it comes up again and again and again. I also think warpgates being inconsistent within protoss itself is a decent point. Terran uses the same production design for everything, zerg uses the same production design for everything. Protoss does not. That alone is just inelegant, the assumed reason for that is the interesting part though. The thing is that any time people discuss this other people feel the need to simply name it "wanna be game designer" or similar things. Why not just attack the arguments? If you aren't able to do that you don't add anything of value. This "hey people at blizzard are real gamedesigners and thus they know better than you" is just a bad argument. Things like dota and counterstrike were made by forum users (basically), all that matters are the actual arguments for specific design decisions. But ofc we can call eachother stupid, that's basically what you did with this post.. I like the idea of protoss being able to warp in all units since I agree. I also like switching to a different "style" once in a while, otherwise the races feel to similar. BUT: you are not correct on zerg using same product design for everything. Queens are produced like terran units. Also upgrades work similar. Would be cool if each race were even more distinct.
You are right, forgot about the queen. I would argue that it could easily be produced from larva without real problems though. But sure it's also slightly inconsistent.
On September 01 2017 08:17 pvsnp wrote:
Entangle makes Liberators and Skytoss basically useless in the lategame. No more need for Corruptors or Vipers, Ultra/Infestor here we go.
Oh, and Fungal can't hit air units anymore......except guess what ability brings air units down to the ground?
BL/Infestor: Rebirth, coming soon to games near you.
Entangle cannot stay like that, though i like the general idea tbh
In general i would still like to see a general change to how spellcasters work. Be it smartcast or something else. Spellcasters are too easy to use and that forces spells to be kinda bad. Each time spells get nerfed when the real problem is how easy spammable it is.
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On September 01 2017 08:22 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:New Updates:Nexus: -Nexust (their typo not mine) starting energy increased from 0 to 50.
Anyone knows whether it includes at the start of the game?
Protoss
The Nexus’ starting energy felt a bit restrictive at 0, especially when faced with early aggression. We want to try increasing the Nexus’ starting energy from 0 to 50 to allow players more opportunities to use abilities without feeling constrained. Also, Mass Recall’s energy cost might be too high with Chrono Boost and Restoration Field as other options. We want to open up more chances to use Mass Recall in the early and mid-game, but keep it from becoming too strong in the late game when players have multiple Nexus structures. To keep Mass Recall viable but not overly powerful in the late game, there will be a 129 second duration global cooldown for Mass Recalls across all Nexus structures. Additionally, the Oracle’s strength may need some adjustment. Revelation is very useful but the ability may deter player interaction for a bit too long. We want to try and decrease Revelation’s duration from 43 to 30 seconds.
I agree with the problem but not the solution. The other abilities should be cheaper but weaker (i.e half the cost and effectiveness of Chrono and Restoration). This global cooldown prevents doing cool stuff and supports uniform strategies (attacking whenever the Recall is available, but not when it's not)
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Yes, you get 50 energy on the main Nexus right from the start.
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i dont know what are they doing to the cyclone :s
edit: is "Armor Piercing Rockets" the regular attack?
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On September 01 2017 09:31 Topin wrote:
i dont know what are they doing to the cyclone :s
edit: is "Armor Piercing Rockets" the regular attack?
No, it's an upgrade for the lock on ability.
The regular weapon for Cyclone is called "Tornado Blaster" :D
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They should make the Nexus recall cost 100 or 125 energy. Global cooldowns are lame.
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Now i want to see 1 second delay on Psi Storm, to give opponent a chance to react Blizzard...
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Broadly speaking, they made air too strong, so now they make counters to air even stronger, while the more sensible solution would be just making air weaker.
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On September 01 2017 08:22 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:New Updates:Raven -Repair drone now deploys directly from the Raven rather than from the sky, making it easier to identify which Raven cast the ability. Cyclone -Removed "Armor Piercing Rockets" -Added "Rapid Fire Launchers", First 12 shots fire quickly at the rate of .21. The remaining 8 shots will fire at the period of .84. Hellion/Hellbat: Smart Servos -The Hellion/Hellbat morph times are reduced less heavily (from 2.86 to 1.43) Nexus: -Nexust (their typo not mine) starting energy increased from 0 to 50. -Mass Recall: Reduced from 100 to 50 energy. -Added 129 second global cooldown for Mass Recalls across all Nexus structures. -Shield Regen moved from Nexus to Pylon Disruptor -Removed the delay on Purification Nova when Disruptors drop from transports. High Templar -Psi Blast model and impact model size reduced to more accurately reflect the effect of the weapon. Oracle -Revelation duration reduced from 43 to 30 seconds. Infestor -Removed Infested Terran Ability -New ability added: "Entangle" Cost: 50 energy Duration: 7.14 seconds Range: 8 Brings a target enemy air unit to the ground, allowing units to attack it as if it were a ground unit. Temporarily disables the target's attack and cloak. Viper -Added one second delay before Parasitic Bomb begins damaging effects
I really like this update. Everything is moving in the right direction.
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Cyclone anti-air and it's respective upgrade are soooo crappy with all it's special rules on how many shots are fired rapidly, give it a flat-out easy-to-digest damage buff already.
Smart Servos is just about tweaking numbers, ok, but the animation looks wonky, so I'm actually not that fond of this upgrade, although it's certainly helpful.
F2-friendly changes are beyond stupid and should absolutely not make it into the game. If people are too lazy or stupid to learn they have to put their casters into a different hotkey group, then they should MAYBE go play another game which is easier, not be pampered like this, it's just ridiculous...
That kinda reminds me when they told us they were thinking about unit building automation in on of those PR-bullshit community updates during Legacy beta...
Legacy of the Void... I begin to see the pattern here, and where the void is to be found.
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On September 01 2017 17:35 Creager wrote:
Cyclone anti-air and it's respective upgrade are soooo crappy with all it's special rules on how many shots are fired rapidly, give it a flat-out easy-to-digest damage buff already.
Smart Servos is just about tweaking numbers, ok, but the animation looks wonky, so I'm actually not that fond of this upgrade, although it's certainly helpful.
F2-friendly changes are beyond stupid and should absolutely not make it into the game. If people are too lazy or stupid to learn they have to put their casters into a different hotkey group, then they should MAYBE go play another game which is easier, not be pampered like this, it's just ridiculous...
That kinda reminds me when they told us they were thinking about unit building automation in on of those PR-bullshit community updates during Legacy beta...
Legacy of the Void... I begin to see the pattern here, and where the void is to be found.
it's not "laziness," it's that almost nobody below GM-pro level is actually any good at keeping casters alive. seriously, pretty much nobody. even pros have problems keeping units like templar, vipers, infestors, etc. alive because you still have to manage your army and macro. i know starcraft players obsess over this concept of being able to boast that they play the "hardest game" but there's an argument for "not every single thing in the game needs to be that hard." it's why worker mining is automated now and why selection was increased: they're things that simply DO NOT NEED TO BE HARD (despite the insane BW devotees who insist that playing video games shouldn't be fun). there are a lot of things about the game that are hard already
the game should be hard up to the point where it's no longer enjoyable to play. i'll always disagree with the equivocation of annoyance and frustration to raising the skill ceiling
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On September 01 2017 17:45 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 17:35 Creager wrote:
Cyclone anti-air and it's respective upgrade are soooo crappy with all it's special rules on how many shots are fired rapidly, give it a flat-out easy-to-digest damage buff already.
Smart Servos is just about tweaking numbers, ok, but the animation looks wonky, so I'm actually not that fond of this upgrade, although it's certainly helpful.
F2-friendly changes are beyond stupid and should absolutely not make it into the game. If people are too lazy or stupid to learn they have to put their casters into a different hotkey group, then they should MAYBE go play another game which is easier, not be pampered like this, it's just ridiculous...
That kinda reminds me when they told us they were thinking about unit building automation in on of those PR-bullshit community updates during Legacy beta...
Legacy of the Void... I begin to see the pattern here, and where the void is to be found. it's not "laziness," it's that almost nobody below GM-pro level is actually any good at keeping casters alive. seriously, pretty much nobody. even pros have problems keeping units like templar, vipers, infestors, etc. alive because you still have to manage your army and macro. i know starcraft players obsess over this concept of being able to boast that they play the "hardest game" but there's an argument for "not every single thing in the game needs to be hard." it's why worker mining is automated now: it's not something that NEEDS TO BE HARD. there are a lot of things about the game that are hard already
But managing your control groups and different units IS a core part of the game you have to at least get better at. It is a game about information and making less mistakes than your opponent, playing perfectly is impossible, but further dumbing down things people refuse to improve on is taking away from the game's identity.
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On September 01 2017 17:47 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 17:45 brickrd wrote:On September 01 2017 17:35 Creager wrote:
Cyclone anti-air and it's respective upgrade are soooo crappy with all it's special rules on how many shots are fired rapidly, give it a flat-out easy-to-digest damage buff already.
Smart Servos is just about tweaking numbers, ok, but the animation looks wonky, so I'm actually not that fond of this upgrade, although it's certainly helpful.
F2-friendly changes are beyond stupid and should absolutely not make it into the game. If people are too lazy or stupid to learn they have to put their casters into a different hotkey group, then they should MAYBE go play another game which is easier, not be pampered like this, it's just ridiculous...
That kinda reminds me when they told us they were thinking about unit building automation in on of those PR-bullshit community updates during Legacy beta...
Legacy of the Void... I begin to see the pattern here, and where the void is to be found. it's not "laziness," it's that almost nobody below GM-pro level is actually any good at keeping casters alive. seriously, pretty much nobody. even pros have problems keeping units like templar, vipers, infestors, etc. alive because you still have to manage your army and macro. i know starcraft players obsess over this concept of being able to boast that they play the "hardest game" but there's an argument for "not every single thing in the game needs to be hard." it's why worker mining is automated now: it's not something that NEEDS TO BE HARD. there are a lot of things about the game that are hard already But managing your control groups and different units IS a core part of the game you have to at least get better at. It is a game about information and making less mistakes than your opponent, playing perfectly is impossible, but further dumbing down things people refuse to improve on is taking away from the game's identity.
same old argument from brood war. people still think selecting more than 12 units and not having to tell your first workers to mine removed the game's identity. agree to disagree, but i think games should be fun and i think basic harassment, basic engagements, basic macro etc. are all an exciting and high-level challenge
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On September 01 2017 17:49 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 17:47 Creager wrote:On September 01 2017 17:45 brickrd wrote:On September 01 2017 17:35 Creager wrote:
Cyclone anti-air and it's respective upgrade are soooo crappy with all it's special rules on how many shots are fired rapidly, give it a flat-out easy-to-digest damage buff already.
Smart Servos is just about tweaking numbers, ok, but the animation looks wonky, so I'm actually not that fond of this upgrade, although it's certainly helpful.
F2-friendly changes are beyond stupid and should absolutely not make it into the game. If people are too lazy or stupid to learn they have to put their casters into a different hotkey group, then they should MAYBE go play another game which is easier, not be pampered like this, it's just ridiculous...
That kinda reminds me when they told us they were thinking about unit building automation in on of those PR-bullshit community updates during Legacy beta...
Legacy of the Void... I begin to see the pattern here, and where the void is to be found. it's not "laziness," it's that almost nobody below GM-pro level is actually any good at keeping casters alive. seriously, pretty much nobody. even pros have problems keeping units like templar, vipers, infestors, etc. alive because you still have to manage your army and macro. i know starcraft players obsess over this concept of being able to boast that they play the "hardest game" but there's an argument for "not every single thing in the game needs to be hard." it's why worker mining is automated now: it's not something that NEEDS TO BE HARD. there are a lot of things about the game that are hard already But managing your control groups and different units IS a core part of the game you have to at least get better at. It is a game about information and making less mistakes than your opponent, playing perfectly is impossible, but further dumbing down things people refuse to improve on is taking away from the game's identity. same old argument from brood war. people still think selecting more than 12 units and not having to tell your first workers to mine removed the game's identity. agree to disagree, but i think games should be fun and i think basic harassment, basic engagements, basic macro etc. are all an exciting and high-level challenge
How does basic go together with high-level? And when do you stop making those "quality of life" changes? When buildings build units of their own? If you wanna play something like Desert Strike, you can do that, it's right in the arcade.
I find hard games fun to play, I have fun when realizing mistakes and improving on them, I don't want games to hold my hand and please me with redundant achievements to imply success.
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On September 01 2017 17:50 Creager wrote:
And when do you stop making those "quality of life" changes? When buildings build units of their own? If you wanna play something like Desert Strike, you can do that, it's right in the arcade.
Ideally they stop making changes when the game is the best it can be. I don't mind if they disrupt things if it results in a better game. They've already majorly disrupted the meta twice with the expansions, so I think people are used to it.
The thing is, it's not difficult to balance the game by slowly tweaking numbers, because you can just buff or nerf the most obvious problems for that particular design. But making things balanced doesn't in itself make the game fun. I feel like the focus has been skewed too far towards balance before some core problems were addressed. The LotV beta was a great chance to try some disruptive changes, but they screwed it up. I think the game needs one more rework before it'll be done. I'm glad they're going for it 
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On September 01 2017 19:28 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2017 17:50 Creager wrote:
And when do you stop making those "quality of life" changes? When buildings build units of their own? If you wanna play something like Desert Strike, you can do that, it's right in the arcade.
Ideally they stop making changes when the game is the best it can be. I don't mind if they disrupt things if it results in a better game. They've already majorly disrupted the meta twice with the expansions, so I think people are used to it. The thing is, it's not difficult to balance the game by slowly tweaking numbers, because you can just buff or nerf the most obvious problems for that particular design. But making things balanced doesn't in itself make the game fun. I feel like the focus has been skewed too far towards balance before some core problems were addressed. The LotV beta was a great chance to try some disruptive changes, but they screwed it up. I think the game needs one more rework before it'll be done. I'm glad they're going for it
They're somehow going for some kind of WC3'ish approach now with all that ability nonsense, which I personally do not like, at all. My overall fear is the reworks won't end, though, because they artificially want to keep the game "fresh" and "interesting" and further milk their fanbase with microtransactions, simply a neverending story.
Sadly, I personally feel the game's quality isn't improving, but deteriorating.
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I'm very impressed by the Starcraft 2 multiplayer team. I will say though that it's weird how Infested Terran and Entangle anti combo together. Infested deal more vs Air and now you can earthbind units, which lessens the power of the Infested Terrans attack. Some interaction here have to go away.
Also I don't like the Repair Drone, it's too close to Medivac Healing. Bio should feel different to play than Mech. Too many beams look stupid and 2 different beams hitting the same unit (Hellbat/SCV) is ridiculous.
I'm a bit sad there had to be put a global cooldown for the Recall on the Nexus, but at least you can get to queue Recalls when you get the Mothership.
50 Energy Nexus and 50 Energy Recall means that you can now proxy a Nexus in the opponents base and instant Recall, which is interesting. I love the new Nexus and I love Protoss so much on the test map compared to on the live version.
I think we should consider removing the building damage on Corrosive Bile to enable Forge Expanding, just because it enables more options for ways players can play Protoss. When both options are viable we get to see FFE players and Gateway Expand players and it becomes easier to tell players apart which is always a welcome sight.
Another thing is that a lot of the focus on this patch has been to reduce annoying bullshit that makes people rage and quit the game. Well the Oracle is one of the biggest offenders of this. I would say it should get the Adept treatment, reduce vs Light damage on the beam so it 3 shots Marines/SCV's so less Terrans outright lose the game, maybe it can also slightly reduce the power level and the abuse of going mass Oracles vs Zergs.
Otherwise good stuff!
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I'm very impressed by the Starcraft 2 multiplayer team. I will say though that it's weird how Infested Terran and Entangle anti combo together. Infested deal more vs Air and now you can earthbind units, which lessens the power of the Infested Terrans attack. Some interaction here have to go away.
Entangles also remove attack from the unit caught : rooted + no attack = STUN basically for 7sec.
This kind of ability as no place in sc2 imo
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On September 01 2017 19:56 nonoes wrote:Show nested quote +I'm very impressed by the Starcraft 2 multiplayer team. I will say though that it's weird how Infested Terran and Entangle anti combo together. Infested deal more vs Air and now you can earthbind units, which lessens the power of the Infested Terrans attack. Some interaction here have to go away. Entangles also remove attack from the unit caught : rooted + no attack = STUN basically for 7sec. This kind of ability as no place in sc2 imo
You do realize that the ability "Graviton beam" is there since Wings of Liberty, right? I'm not a fan of Entangle either, but your argument doesnt really seem valid.
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EPT
