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United States12235 Posts
On August 31 2017 02:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am talking about the general idea of warpin in units. Ofc the actual upgrade and implementation is clear enough, but you have to think "why only gates".
It's not like terran or zerg have these inconsistencies in their production. Protoss has.
Arguably because it was already a huge pain in the ass to balance around warpgates, now imagine if you could warpin every other unit as well.
The internal versions of the game allowed you to warp in Immortals too for sure, but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that it once applied to everything else too. The balancing phase was probably what introduced the restriction to Gateway units in the first place.
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Sure that's kinda my point though. If you notice that it's not really doable to make it happen for all units and even with only warpgates it's tough, mabe the design decision is not that great.
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On August 31 2017 02:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I am talking about the general idea of warpin in units. Ofc the actual upgrade and implementation is clear enough, but you have to think "why only gates".
It's not like terran or zerg have these inconsistencies in their production. Protoss has.
Arguably because it was already a huge pain in the ass to balance around warpgates, now imagine if you could warpin every other unit as well.
part of racial diversity is having 1 race with production inconsistencies... the enigmatic, technologically advanced Protoss 
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Usually the same people that complain about the MSC and overcharge complain about warp-ins. Let's say we get rid of both... how is then Protoss supposed to defend expansions? It is a much harder design problem than the other (supposed) one you would be fixing. Protoss does not have the DPS of Terran or the mobility/vision of Zerg to help on defense. You cannot make existing gateway units way stronger because they would be OP at the offense.
I have played Protoss until LotV where I play all races. The race just became less funny for mid-level players when the easier offensive warp-ins where removed, and defensively it is very easy to mess up your pilon or MSC positioning. I am all for removing PO, but shield recharge from the nexus is too weak (and late) to be effective. Making units stronger is not a solution, so the only alternative I see is improving defensive warp-ins: make them faster and/or remove taking damage while warping in when done near a nexus, including those still not finished.
... and I do not even want to think about PvP.
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I like sc2 a lot, and I don't have big complaints - I am overall a very happy P player.
I truly really hope blizzard will never listen to all these wanna be game designers who advocate to remove warpgate (and somehow all play t or z). All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well, why not all play terran and produce our stuff from barracks?
(Sorry I know this is an exaggeration, but these discussions on "design" are really ridiculous..)
I play p because I like the style, sometimes I want to enjoy macroing with Terrans (which is super fun, managing barracks production cycles and such) and I just switch for a few games.
If the fundamental game design of a race is too much for you, play an other race out of the 3 available, and if playing against it is also unbearable for your delicate gamedesign taste, there are many RTS out there without protoss in it.
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All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well
In what way? All larva really does is creating the need of ramps and walls in the early game. That could be considered a negative but it's not a real major concern such as interfering with defenders advantage.
Larva itself only limits the unit design for zerg itself, you simply cannot have high impact units like the oracle or banshee or something similar because zerg could produce a lot at once.
Other than that you don't really add anything topic related, just trying to argue that the discussion itself is "ridiculous".
Well no it is not which is why it comes up again and again and again.
I also think warpgates being inconsistent within protoss itself is a decent point. Terran uses the same production design for everything, zerg uses the same production design for everything. Protoss does not. That alone is just inelegant, the assumed reason for that is the interesting part though.
The thing is that any time people discuss this other people feel the need to simply name it "wanna be game designer" or similar things. Why not just attack the arguments? If you aren't able to do that you don't add anything of value.
This "hey people at blizzard are real gamedesigners and thus they know better than you" is just a bad argument. Things like dota and counterstrike were made by forum users (basically), all that matters are the actual arguments for specific design decisions. But ofc we can call eachother stupid, that's basically what you did with this post..
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On August 31 2017 09:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well In what way?
Larvae are hard to balance because Zerg can tech switch very quickly, which means you have to be careful how strong you make zerg units. This isn't necessarily a problem, as you can design around weak Zerg units by giving them higher production, and by allowing Zerg to more easily get higher income than the other races (e.g. take expansions more easily). So the Zerg playstyle could be to be aggressive, using waves of cheap units to harass and trade and generally keep the opponent on the defensive while they take additional bases.
I think they screw this up in sc2 in a couple of ways. Firstly, the power of harassment means that zerg needs to keep their units at home a lot of the time, reducing their ability to use their army offensively. And secondly, protoss and terran have such strong defensive options, and the bases are so close together, that attacking with zerg is difficult. So the "overwhelm and out expand" aspect of zerg, while still present in sc2, is on a similar razors edge to warp gate design, where the units can't be too powerful or tech switches and burst production will be too strong. And the units can't be too weak because they need to fight somewhat evenly with the other races.
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They screw it up when they nerfed larvae inject from 4 to 3. Zerg has no longer economic advantage as it's slowing down early game eco a lot and snowballs into midgame, as we often see Protoss has more probes with chrono than Zerg, not mention Terran Mules. Additionally as you said, either Terran or Protoss harras is much stronger than previous iterations of sc2 in LOTV, so potentially Zerg looses more eco than before and it's harder to replace it.
Zerg is specific compared to T and P as he cannot produce army in the same time when producing drones. So every tech switch or agression means, that u don't grow economically. Protoss for example pushes you with warprism and his army, producing probes in the same time and not needing army in his base to defend because of photon overcharge.
If there is one thing to make Zerg more Zerg, it's bringing back 4 larva again, just as they are reverting changes to chronoboost.
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On August 31 2017 13:46 hiroshOne wrote:
If there is one thing to make Zerg more Zerg, it's bringing back 4 larva again, just as they are reverting changes to chronoboost.
Larvae inject exacerbates the problem of balancing zerg production/tech switches with the power of their units (described above). Making larvae inject better would make that problem worse. Higher production means you have more units, which means the units need to be worse individually, which is a problem when you hit max and you can no longer leverage your production. Hence the strategy of trading your army and remaxing on mutas, or building 10 ultras or whatever to leverage zerg's other strength - tech switching.
I also don't really like the design of having to inject hatcheries all the time.
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On August 31 2017 14:13 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2017 13:46 hiroshOne wrote:
If there is one thing to make Zerg more Zerg, it's bringing back 4 larva again, just as they are reverting changes to chronoboost. Larvae inject exacerbates the problem of balancing zerg production/tech switches with the power of their units (described above). Making larvae inject better would make that problem worse. Higher production means you have more units, which means the units need to be worse individually, which is a problem when you hit max and you can no longer leverage your production. Hence the strategy of trading your army and remaxing on mutas, or building 10 ultras or whatever to leverage zerg's other strength - tech switching. I also don't really like the design of having to inject hatcheries all the time.
Zerg units are already the weakest in the game. There is no comparison to BIO strengh or Protoss units like Oracles, Immortals not to mention air. The production value was the only strengh of Zerg, including powerful timing attacks or fast economy growth. One larva less is 25% nerf to economy in early game. The snowball effect is too much. That's why in scenario where Protoss is for example allining Zerg, and Zerg is ready- cutting his drone production, and making units instead- even if Zerg defends it- he's dead already as he is behind. In the same time allining protoss doesn't need to cut probe production, doesn't need to even keep his army in the base, as photon overcharge is handling the potential counter attack. To be honest i don't even understand why not to allin as protoss in sc2 nowadays, as there is no such thing as protoss allin. Or Terran allin. The only race that have such thing as allin is Zerg as he truly sacrifices something to attack. With protoss and Terran it's just less risky.
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On August 31 2017 07:25 Xamo wrote:
Usually the same people that complain about the MSC and overcharge complain about warp-ins. Let's say we get rid of both... how is then Protoss supposed to defend expansions? It is a much harder design problem than the other (supposed) one you would be fixing. Protoss does not have the DPS of Terran or the mobility/vision of Zerg to help on defense. You cannot make existing gateway units way stronger because they would be OP at the offense.
That's kind of the point though, people -like me- who want to move the warpgate mechanic to late game, or modify the mechanic, wants this so all gateway units can be buffed. Right now we are in a situation where gateway units are too weak to defend early-mid game aggression without the support of the MotherShip Core. So, either we push further the defensive tools such as the battery shield, or gateway units should be buffed. However, if you buff gateway units, you have to nerf warpgate, otherwise all-in are going impossible to defend, and even just pressure attack will snowball very fast.
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It's probably too late in the games' life now but they really should have just had a hard look at the damage output for all units.
Game speed and flow is fine, but every unit just feels like a meat-grinder. Really need to take a closer look at all units overall DPS and adjust health values as necessary. It doesn't feel good to be on the giving or receiving end of an army instantly melting to Terran bio or Protoss aoe, and just makes the game feel frustrating to play as well as watch.
Since its release, Sc2 has been plagued by the fact that the overwhelming majority of games played end instantly in less than 10 seconds from any given fight or economic harass.
As fun as a long line for a ride at amusement park is, you can expect people to get bored with the idea of enduring a long wait for a small climax, that might not even be in their favor.
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On August 31 2017 16:27 Agh wrote:
It's probably too late in the games' life now but they really should have just had a hard look at the damage output for all units.
Game speed and flow is fine, but every unit just feels like a meat-grinder.
I watched some of the Vanguard games in the Vanguard tournament on incontrol's youtube. The units are a lot tougher and take a lot longer to die. It's interesting to watch. I think there is a good balance between sc2 and vanguard, because I agree that in sc2 things die too quick, but in vanguard I think units are a bit too tough.
I've pondered how much the game would change if it was played on a slower speed. There's so much going on that I don't think you'd run out of things to do, and it'd give you more time to micro in the big battles and react to harass.
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with the new upgrade cyclone will deal roughly 40 dps vs air.
Looks a bit too strong; blizzard type of patch either op or useless
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The Cyclone is just going to have an anti-ground attack with an anti-air single-target nuke spell at this rate.
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terran mech and terran as a whole is already good enough.
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Entangle makes Liberators and Skytoss basically useless in the lategame. No more need for Corruptors or Vipers, Ultra/Infestor here we go.
Oh, and Fungal can't hit air units anymore......except guess what ability brings air units down to the ground?
BL/Infestor: Rebirth, coming soon to games near you.
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On August 31 2017 09:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +All races have peculiar production mechanics: larvae are hard to balance as well In what way? All larva really does is creating the need of ramps and walls in the early game. That could be considered a negative but it's not a real major concern such as interfering with defenders advantage. Larva itself only limits the unit design for zerg itself, you simply cannot have high impact units like the oracle or banshee or something similar because zerg could produce a lot at once. Other than that you don't really add anything topic related, just trying to argue that the discussion itself is "ridiculous". Well no it is not which is why it comes up again and again and again. I also think warpgates being inconsistent within protoss itself is a decent point. Terran uses the same production design for everything, zerg uses the same production design for everything. Protoss does not. That alone is just inelegant, the assumed reason for that is the interesting part though. The thing is that any time people discuss this other people feel the need to simply name it "wanna be game designer" or similar things. Why not just attack the arguments? If you aren't able to do that you don't add anything of value. This "hey people at blizzard are real gamedesigners and thus they know better than you" is just a bad argument. Things like dota and counterstrike were made by forum users (basically), all that matters are the actual arguments for specific design decisions. But ofc we can call eachother stupid, that's basically what you did with this post..
I like the idea of protoss being able to warp in all units since I agree. I also like switching to a different "style" once in a while, otherwise the races feel to similar.
BUT: you are not correct on zerg using same product design for everything. Queens are produced like terran units. Also upgrades work similar. Would be cool if each race were even more distinct.
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New Updates:
Raven
-Repair drone now deploys directly from the Raven rather than from the sky, making it easier to identify which Raven cast the ability.
Cyclone
-Removed "Armor Piercing Rockets"
-Added "Rapid Fire Launchers", First 12 shots fire quickly at the rate of .21. The remaining 8 shots will fire at the period of .84.
Hellion/Hellbat: Smart Servos
-The Hellion/Hellbat morph times are reduced less heavily (from 2.86 to 1.43)
Nexus:
-Nexust (their typo not mine) starting energy increased from 0 to 50.
-Mass Recall: Reduced from 100 to 50 energy.
-Added 129 second global cooldown for Mass Recalls across all Nexus structures.
-Shield Regen moved from Nexus to Pylon
Disruptor
-Removed the delay on Purification Nova when Disruptors drop from transports.
High Templar
-Psi Blast model and impact model size reduced to more accurately reflect the effect of the weapon.
Oracle
-Revelation duration reduced from 43 to 30 seconds.
Infestor
-Removed Infested Terran Ability
-New ability added: "Entangle"
Cost: 50 energy
Duration: 7.14 seconds
Range: 8
Brings a target enemy air unit to the ground, allowing units to attack it as if it were a ground unit.
Temporarily disables the target's attack and cloak.
Viper
-Added one second delay before Parasitic Bomb begins damaging effects
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EPT
