EPTStarCraft II Multiplayer - Major Design Changes - Page 12
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SiaBBo
Finland132 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
This coupled with the mine change might be enough to push bio over a cliff in tvz. Mabey I'm wrong, mabey the gas changes will make it so that Terran can do enough new pressure builds that they can still get to a decent spot with bio, but I'm rather sceptical. It feals like they want to force us to mech but with a nerfed raven And still no good ground to air in not sure mech will be competitive with late game sky Zerg | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On August 18 2017 16:42 hiroshOne wrote: Protoss indeed will be in trouble without MSCore especially in TvP. BIO is too strong since the beginning of sc2 and this is the source of most bandaids in the game. Revert to WOL> Nerf BIO> Balance game around that> Slowly add units from HOTS and LoTv> problem solved. Problem with that is that Terran has no powerful lategame to transition into. Unless you go full Mech, there is no real transition out of Bio into some kind of powerful Tier 3 unit composition. Bio also doesn't shine until it has Stim, Medivacs, Combat Shield and a few Marauders to tank for it. Early game unupgraded Marines are terrible. Adepts can just volley them and Stalkers can kite them. (which will be a lot easier with the heavier, slower attack) I'm not really sure why Protoss is so damned afraid of a Bio push early game without the MSC. Are we not allowed to pressure you in the early game? You can throw Warp Prism + Adept, Proxy Oracle, 7g Blink or DTs at us. All of which require a different response, the structures of which can be proxied anywhere on the map to avoid a scout and it will win you the game if not reacted to properly. As a Terran I have to take the sheer existence of such openings into account or I'm coinflipping every TvP I play. What if I don't take into account the possibility of Proxy Oracle? One unchallenged Oracle will win Protoss the game. In contrast, what aggressive options does Terran really have right now in early game TvP that isn't smacked down easily with the aid of the MSC? I can't even think of a functional Terran cheese in TvP. Does it even exist? If it doesn't, then Protoss knows they have nothing to fear early game and can play however they want whereas Terran has to take a number of aggressive options into consideration before you even start the game. In late-era WoL I didn't see any massive number of TvPs in the pro scene always getting easily steamrolled over in the early game. Yes we had the early stupid GomTvT era. The game was young and Korean-level microed Bio ruled the day, but that isn't the case anymore. In the late-era of WoL both sides had aggressive options, both sides had to scout, both sides had to build an actual number of units. Maybe this is turning into a bit of a rant but from my point of view, all Protoss has to do now is actually take aggressive options from Terran more into account and build some units. Yes, Terran could potentially attack you with Bio in the early game now. Pretty sure if you scout it and prepare you can hold it off. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24578 Posts
I'd also like to remind everyone that the MSC is not made to fight Zerg or Terran in the early game but to break 4-gate rushing. With stronger Stalkers and no MSC the good ol' gate rushing will come back. Maybe that's fine if two-gate double Stalker openers still work but PvP will turn into something more akin to WoL with this. That's not a good thing. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On August 18 2017 02:44 TheWinks wrote: That mine change is going to cause all sorts of awful problems. If they want to treat them like banes, they're going to have to see a cost reduction, and they're going to have to touch the oracle. Infested terran getting upgrades back puts fear into my heart for the future of the game. Don't repeat history please. You missed the part where their base damage was reduced by 2. So with +3 weapon upgrade they will only do +1 damage than what they are doing now. Not the terror they were.. | ||
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Uberduder
United States13 Posts
Also lurker upgrade on hive? How does this make lurkers relevant when the game is at tier 3 units by the point you can even make this upgrade? Its 150/150 down the drain. You don't put something you intend to be relevant but minor on hive tech or you simply wont see it used when you can make all the other hive tech instead. Viper change sounds like a buff at the end of the day. But fungal doesn't hit air so that's one source of damage less vs mass air. This will maul liberators though. Would trade this any day for early game AA though. Swarm host is still complete trash at the competitive level, you occasionally see a meme victory or loss with them but its only purpose is to surprise people who don't respond properly to them or go for certain niche strats. And I don't know a single player of any race including zerg who actually likes this unit. It sounds like hyperbole to say replace/redesign this unit and blizzard often loves their own ideas too hard to remove them, but I can't think of anyone that isn't totally ok with this idea. There are still a lot of cool ideas for a zerg unit that could have its day in the sun if it was in place of swamhosts. I generally like the terran changes, its cool mules can have a function for mech now, but the ghost change seems super risky, this is like giving terrans DT's, there were already a few TvT rushes a while back and this just helps that massively (especially with gas mules), game doesn't need more game ending openings that kill you if it gets scouted last on a 4 player map. Mine change is pretty fair even if it sounds drastic, those things only cost 75/25 at the end of the day, they often pay for themselves with a single shot anyway and can still end games and make positions super hard to break, the only thing that kept them balanced till now was that they produced slow. Having all your overseers killed in the push never felt like a great skill based reason to not be able to reclaim territory after a winning fight. I imagine that is true for protoss as well. Have no idea what to think of the protoss changes, I like them from a design standpoint, but defending against oracles or liberators without overcharge is going to need some compensation. I forsee a lot of tweaks to protoss early game just to make this all work. Disruptor and stalker change will also have immense repercussions on pvp. | ||
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SCHWARZENEGGER
206 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
Additionally, nerfing funghal into oblivion this way Blizzard is killing very interesting and micro intensivetactics like corrosive bile/ funghal combo vs BIO as a defensive tool just as vs air. Must i remind u that bile/funghal was pretty good vs Carriers? | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
Just remove widow mine & swarm host completely, i honestly can't believe this stupid units survived for so many years. It is also sad to not see a nerf to the Oracle revelation since it is the most op ability in the game. High Templar cost less than Infestor & Ghost and it is WAY more powerful than both. How come they are still getting buffs? Can someone explain? | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
Terran - Medivac - removed speed boost ability. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On August 18 2017 18:17 ReMinD_ wrote: One change is missing though: Terran - Medivac - removed speed boost ability. or it can cost energy like everyone was suggesting for years | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
Medivack without speed boost will be managable for Protoss to defend, less game ending and more about positioning. Not boosting blindli on shift command all over the map. BIO is agile and mobile already without it | ||
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raff100
498 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
the animation looks silly too Would be much better to have the servos allow the units to transform while moving but with a massive deceleration cyclone change feels like an uncessary gimmick with a pointless upgrade (150/150 for 46 more damage? Come on.), the main reason why the cyclone AA suck is because it's a spell with a cooldown that deals extremely little damage. Just increase the damage or make it a regular attack solves the problem, no need for "yeah 4 first shots go faster and then you have a 150/150 upgrade that adds 2 dmg versus armored per shots" mine nerf is plain retarded, just making it unable to target workers would be much, much better and fairer stalker change is stupid too, it actually makes the stalker worse as a frontal fighter while making it more abusive in cheesy situations adept stays unchanged? WHY? Removal of the MSC seems like a perfect occasion to remove the shade and buff the adept's stats so it become the true frontline/backbone fighter it's supposed to be the more i think about it the more terran mech will now be complete garbage against vipers (even more than before). 180 dmg parabomb that oneshots vikings, no more PDD or seeker to defend your army (healing drone doesn't save abducted units) the more i think about it the more encouraging F2 with obs/overseer deployement is an insult to everything that SC2 stands for At the end of the day i'd just wish they're do the eco change, remove the MSC and make the nexus a shield battery with chronoboost, and slightly buff the stalker's attack + remove the shade and buff the adept's frontal power to compensate for the overcharge That'd actually be a good starting point to THEN try out other changes | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
At the end of the day i'd just wish they're do the eco change, remove the MSC and make the nexus a shield battery with chronoboost, and slightly buff the stalker's attack + remove the shade and buff the adept's frontal power to compensate for the overcharge That'd actually be a good starting point to THEN try out other changes So true... First fix the core design problems, which - and it's irritating to observe- they are finally willing to acknowledge for the MSC but not for tor the economy... There was so many great threads here on TL, well documented, tested by pros it's baffling they went with what they chose and that they still stick to it. To your list I'd add a Warpgate re-design, either making it a late game upgrade, or just that portal transformed into warpgate can either produce as a portal at faster rate, or warp around pylône/warp prism but in a much longer time. | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
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HerrPfotig
Germany39 Posts
rescource changes for mapmakers: Starting locations: 2 gas geysirs expo locations: 1 high yield geysir What compensation for transforming energy into increased gas mining (MULE harvesting gas), do Zerg and Protoss get? In a way repairdrone(Raven) already exists: MULEs can repair mech units and mechplayers usually have an excess of minerals (new MULE could help balancing the gas/mineral ratio here) I assume a 3 OC soft economy cap 90gas per Mule until expiration * 3 = 270 gas (~250gas/minute) this allows for an additional 1 factory/starport producing a gas heavy unit Thor : ~280gas/min with constant production ST : ~234gas/min " Raven : ~280 gas/min " BC : ~280 gas/min " 3 MULES in Minerals allow for around 3 Raxx additional Production (cost for supplydepots is taken into calculation) It is kind of balanced out because gas is 2-3 times more valuable than minerals (scarcity of resources, ~2,5 times more minerals on any given map than there are gas resouces) I play Terran since WoL, and I dislike the MULE change Warping in units should make the cooldown for next warp-in longer than the duration of producing them out of Gateways. (defenders advantage wihtout removing warpgate mechanic, still allows for cool warpin at enemy base, proxy or straight offensive capabilities just add more Warpgates to balance out longer cooldowns; all this means more strategic CHOICES) Sorry these are my opinions and it´s a rant :D edit: clearing things up and writing out abbreviations | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
Looking at these suggested updates, I think Protoss will struggle a lot holding terran mech all ins and holding terran stim (+1) timings. There will be no fast 3rd in that matchup. I like the static observer ability. And I like the infestor changes. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
1. I do not like the approach of constant big changes to the game. It is far more better to have properly made game and then stop development (at least in game design department) and let the meta emerge and flow. However with that being said and taking into consideration taht even though the game settled in okeyish spot right now I do believe it is still far away from being "properly made" and ther still can be a lot done to improve sc2 gameplaywise. Which brings us to 2nd point: 2. Actual changes in abovementioned patch: these are in fact quite nice I must admit especially when compared to blink-dts and stormy-tempest from last year update. Finally there are some changes that community asked for a long time and most of them are either reasonable and/or interesting. Hopefully will push game into higher hights  I like the eco changes although would prefer "diminishing return after 1 worker on mineral patch design". TERRAN
PROTOSS
ZERG
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Imho mines should be redesigned to be cheaper, 0-1 supply, one use, ground only unit.
