What about just transferring more of it's HP to shields? So it has 80hp & 70 shields so 150 total "health", why not just shift it to something like 25hp 125 shields or even 50hp 100 shields?
A)It would then possibly make the shield upgrade more valuable and maybe we'd see it get researched earlier, especially since shield upgrade not only helps all your units but now could help out your main core "tanky" unit. Now a day we almost always see Weapon & Armor getting 3/3 and then finally after that possibly getting a shield upgrade or two.
B)It "could" make ghosts more viable in TvP since now EMP will be even more valuable besides just using on the Templar/Archon army.
Doing something like that might be a big enough nerf. I do also think messing with the speed of the shade would be a smart idea. Simple enough nerf but doesn't really tweak the adept numbers itself.
On April 15 2017 04:03 SidianTheBard wrote: What about just transferring more of it's HP to shields? So it has 80hp & 70 shields so 150 total "health", why not just shift it to something like 25hp 125 shields or even 50hp 100 shields?
A)It would then possibly make the shield upgrade more valuable and maybe we'd see it get researched earlier, especially since shield upgrade not only helps all your units but now could help out your main core "tanky" unit. Now a day we almost always see Weapon & Armor getting 3/3 and then finally after that possibly getting a shield upgrade or two.
B)It "could" make ghosts more viable in TvP since now EMP will be even more valuable besides just using on the Templar/Archon army.
Doing something like that might be a big enough nerf. I do also think messing with the speed of the shade would be a smart idea. Simple enough nerf but doesn't really tweak the adept numbers itself.
Transferring more health to shields would actually buff the Adept in the early game, which is the main problem with the unit right now. Shields regenerate, but Protoss have no way of regenerating HP. If an Adept takes enough damage, it will take permanent HP damage, but if it only takes damage to the shields it can regenerate that and come back for another round.
I'd say that I'm impressed by the first decisions after DK's departure. The approach appears more logical and decisions are more urgent and sound. The first few patches will not resolve all problems but at least appear to be going in the right direction. Overall I think the game is in more competent hands.
On April 15 2017 07:00 Kafka777 wrote: I'd say that I'm impressed by the first decisions after DK's departure. The approach appears more logical and decisions are more urgent and sound. The first few patches will not resolve all problems but at least appear to be going in the right direction. Overall I think the game is in more competent hands.
It's literally the same suggestion they had for hydras.
If they're deciding between nerfing harass and nerfing straight-up fight capability, I think they should nerf harass. To stabilize protoss as a race, having a good cheap fighting unit is very helpful. It's nice for protoss to have a decent fighting army early and mid game without having to rely on some tech timing or going all-in.
The ridiculous adept games are the ones where the adepts get dealt with over and over and over again until 3 shade in to a huge worker line one time and slaughter it. Protoss should lose that game, but they win them.
It's literally the same suggestion they had for hydras.
Which david kim was a part of.
Get off your bias.
I don't get the bias, the Adept problem is going on since the beginning of LOTV. They are willing to patch it 2 weeks before a major tournament. They also see other balance issues. I think there is a lot of progress here. I have always stipulated that Blizz should be more courageous with patches.
On April 15 2017 07:00 Kafka777 wrote: I'd say that I'm impressed by the first decisions after DK's departure. The approach appears more logical and decisions are more urgent and sound. The first few patches will not resolve all problems but at least appear to be going in the right direction. Overall I think the game is in more competent hands.
I truly don't understand you. New persons in charge appear to be doing their job properly. I would at least hope the game will get better under their guidance and in principle they are doing the most obvious move possible, in a very delicate way.
I honestly think the problem with adepts isn't their harassment ability or their straight-up fighting strength per se. While it does feel dumb for a mono-comp to be good against nearly everything I have except widow mines, I think the part that feels broken is that they don't obey normal scaling rules. Most of the time melee units hit hard in small numbers, but don't scale well because their damage is limited by surface area. Ranged units do better in mid-sized engagements, but as their numbers increase not all of them are shooting at the same time because they're stuck behind other units at the start of the engagement. Then AoE is the best in big engagements because it hits very hard when the enemy is clumped up, and if the ranged units spread out to avoid the AoE then even more of them aren't fighting.
But adepts sidestep all that by shading on top of your army. No matter how many you have you can get them all firing at once, and if you do it right your opponent doesn't even want to AoE you because they'll hit their own stuff. It's not even nevessarily broken in that it's overpowered (although it might be that too), it's broken in that it disobeys conventional combat rules that nearly every other unit follows. I don't know if Protosses find it fun to do, but it's not particularly fun to play against and it's confusing as hell to watch. For TvP engagements like that, you get a million shades all coming in, the Terran wriggles back and forth to get away from the shades so his own mines won't destroy him, and then all of a sudden everything's on top of everything and mine explosions are blowing up everywhere and after five or ten seconds one army is still there and the other isn't. Very hard to tell what happened or follow who's ahead mid-fight.
I don't know what could be done to fix it. I'd be tempted to have the shade given collision, but my understanding is that gets pretty broken because a bunch of shades can act like a totally impenetrable forcefield. Maybe something weird like if the shades can't walk through enemy units, but enemy units aren't impeded by shades and just push them back?
I truly don't understand you. New persons in charge appear to be doing their job properly. I would at least hope the game will get better under their guidance and in principle they are doing the most obvious move possible, in a very delicate way.
I get the frustration about Adepts in TvP, though I've personally never felt it in ZvP.
It feels like Protoss is already under-represented as it is. Whilst I don't really want to go back to players just massing stalkers, I'd like to see some compensation given to Protoss because my games just feel like I'm playing way more Terrans/Zergs lately and it's kinda boring.
On April 15 2017 08:10 ChristianS wrote: I honestly think the problem with adepts isn't their harassment ability or their straight-up fighting strength per se. While it does feel dumb for a mono-comp to be good against nearly everything I have except widow mines, I think the part that feels broken is that they don't obey normal scaling rules. Most of the time melee units hit hard in small numbers, but don't scale well because their damage is limited by surface area. Ranged units do better in mid-sized engagements, but as their numbers increase not all of them are shooting at the same time because they're stuck behind other units at the start of the engagement. Then AoE is the best in big engagements because it hits very hard when the enemy is clumped up, and if the ranged units spread out to avoid the AoE then even more of them aren't fighting.
But adepts sidestep all that by shading on top of your army. No matter how many you have you can get them all firing at once, and if you do it right your opponent doesn't even want to AoE you because they'll hit their own stuff. It's not even nevessarily broken in that it's overpowered (although it might be that too), it's broken in that it disobeys conventional combat rules that nearly every other unit follows. I don't know if Protosses find it fun to do, but it's not particularly fun to play against and it's confusing as hell to watch. For TvP engagements like that, you get a million shades all coming in, the Terran wriggles back and forth to get away from the shades so his own mines won't destroy him, and then all of a sudden everything's on top of everything and mine explosions are blowing up everywhere and after five or ten seconds one army is still there and the other isn't. Very hard to tell what happened or follow who's ahead mid-fight.
I don't know what could be done to fix it. I'd be tempted to have the shade given collision, but my understanding is that gets pretty broken because a bunch of shades can act like a totally impenetrable forcefield. Maybe something weird like if the shades can't walk through enemy units, but enemy units aren't impeded by shades and just push them back?
I think that sums it up pretty well. Plus that the harass against zerg looks sometimes very cruel when shading from one base to another.
I also want to quote my suggestion in the other thread which might work quite well in addition to blocking shades of some sort. + Show Spoiler +
On April 15 2017 08:05 DSh1 wrote: I do not like to use the adept, I'd rather would like the zealot as the core unit for P. However, I do not know how to accomplish this. My best guess would be to remove the +light from adept and add it to zealot? But then the zealot would be too strong with charge upgrade (?). Sadly I do not have the expertise to make the zealot more and the adept less relevant because this concerns balance.
So here is my suggestion to at least make the adept more fun for all parties:
The shade should be activated by clicking on a target location and the shade cannot be controlled anymore. Cancel should still be allowed though. No timer on the shade. It finishes immediately when the location is reached. Of course there must be a maximum (casting (?)) distance for the ability.
Why do I think this is a good solution: This significantly reduces the complexity needed for the execution of the ability, but retains a high skill ceiling. + Show Spoiler +
Example: Chess is a successful game because it is easy to play, but it is difficult to master. Though you could argue the castling in chess is quite weird, but I guess it was introduced because it provided significant benefit to the game.
The ability is easy to use, because you only have to click a target location and then you can forget about it. + Show Spoiler +
The current implementation is not intuitive: As a beginner it is not clear how the shade works. Is the adept itself selected after the ability or the shade selected as default? How do hotgroups with shades works? Do I cancel the shading with the shade or the real unit? Also that the shade looks different and moves different from normal units does not help. - At least for me it is really confusing. (Of course these questions are easy to answer if you try them out, but keep in mind you have to muscle-memorize those)
The skill ceiling is high because it introduces a real strategy/mind game component for both players. + Show Spoiler +
You have to think beforehand where the units of your opponents will probably be. Your opponent has to find out where your units are headed. The sooner the better. It might be even possible for the defender to set traps beforehand since the adept user has to set the location beforehand. I believe this interaction makes positional play more interesting for both sides. Also I love watching/playing mind games. Well, is there someone who doesn't?
Shading on tanks is more "interactive". You can teleport faster because the ability finishes as soon as the units reach their positions. But during the transfer the terran might guess your destination and outplay you.
Also you could "blink micro" your adepts in combat which should compensate the slight nerf overall. (Probably a nerf overall? I am not sure.). + Show Spoiler +
FYI I love blink stalkers. I love them. I really do.
A fudge factor for balancing would be the ability cool down.
Alternatively: Queue up movement with adept and activate ability. The shade then completes the previously queued up movements (of course within the maximum shade distance). Again: The move commands cannot be changed after the ability is activated. This alternative allows for more complex movements.
He was in charge. Now someone else is making the calls, so it does not matter if the same persons work on this. I would say the new person is clearly wiser, but even though decisions appear better no revolution has happened just yet.
He was in charge. Now someone else is making the calls, so it does not matter if the same persons work on this. I would say the new person is clearly wiser, but even though decisions appear better no revolution has happened just yet.
It's the exact same change as the hydralisk.
"We want to buff hydra health by 10" = "David Kim is worthless"
"We want to nerf adept health by 10" = "WOW THIS NEW BALANCE TEAM IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DAVID KIM".
"We want to buff hydra health by 10" = "David Kim is worthless"
"We want to nerf adept health by 10" = "WOW THIS NEW BALANCE TEAM IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DAVID KIM".
Do you even read what you post?
You are manipulating posts by quoting different persons. Nevertheless, Blizzard does not even need this thread. They just need to do their job properly and I hope they started to realize this.
Finally ! Thank you blizzard ! I love ya'll ! I've been commenting on so many Youtube Vidoes about this and they finally are doing something about it! I hate Adepts! They are too much atm. Please nerf them and find true balance in these match ups. protoss are not supposed to be too strong on all stages of the game. Thank you again Blizz! <3
There are a few ways to fix this. One way could be that there's a delay for Adept to shoot after shaded in. This won't affect harassment too much but it negates them from being so powerful in a straight up fight or shade right on top of an army.
On April 15 2017 08:10 ChristianS wrote:
I don't know what could be done to fix it. I'd be tempted to have the shade given collision, but my understanding is that gets pretty broken because a bunch of shades can act like a totally impenetrable forcefield. Maybe something weird like if the shades can't walk through enemy units, but enemy units aren't impeded by shades and just push them back?
I would personally like to see a short attack delay when the shades finish. The first invulnerable volley out of shades can decimate the high dps units in opposing armies before they even attack and it feels a bit silly because suddenly the fights aren´t trades but lopsided affairs from the beginning.
On April 15 2017 07:29 NonY wrote: If they're deciding between nerfing harass and nerfing straight-up fight capability, I think they should nerf harass. To stabilize protoss as a race, having a good cheap fighting unit is very helpful. It's nice for protoss to have a decent fighting army early and mid game without having to rely on some tech timing or going all-in.
The ridiculous adept games are the ones where the adepts get dealt with over and over and over again until 3 shade in to a huge worker line one time and slaughter it. Protoss should lose that game, but they win them.
I proposed a solution that does exactly that.
Adepts currently have 80 health and 70 shields aka 150 health total.
Instead adepts should be changed to have 110 shields and 40 health (same 150 effective health).
When adepts now use the psionic transfer ability they lose all of their shielding.
What does this mean? It means adepts can still be built and function in the main army identically to how they do on the current live version of the game.
But it also means, if you want to use adepts to shade around and harrass a mineral line, there will be a drawback to that now. It will be easier for the opponent to handle, but adepts still will shred stuff the same way.
What do people think of this? Fair? Balanced? Does it leave adepts as strong as they currently are in the army, and weaken them in harrassment?
Blizzard can hire me for balance any day if they want to. To be completely honest though, the adept is just a broken unit fundamentally. It's design makes it a better version of the zealot that is ranged and attacks faster, with hyper mobility, requiring not even research. The unit has been busted since launch. I don't understand how this unit can exist considering it makes zealots almost irrelevant.
EPT
