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Adepts have needed a hit point nerf since LoTV launched. If Protoss ends up in a bad spot because of it then so be it they can compensate them somewhere else, but the unit itself has been in a broken state and a crutch for pro Protoss play for WAY WAY WAY too long.
They're a gimmicky unit whose gimmick is far easier to abuse than it is to play around, for crying out loud we have whole strategies based around just using an invulnerabiliy mechanic to teleport onto an army and hit 1A.
They need to be toned down, they are not fun, they are completely overpowered in both match ups in the current meta and they have dominated Protoss play in all match ups for the entirety of LotV. Nerf their hitpoints. Get it over with, get back to balancing Protoss around something else.
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On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias".
If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners.
In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least.
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On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least.
I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then.
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On April 14 2017 06:48 Ishmael wrote:
I mean... the adept is really stupid to watch
This cannot be stated enough. Blizzard cannot think only of balance but also of spectator enjoyment as well if they truly want SC2 to be a long standing esport like BW
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then.
At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). Tournament threads had 10-20 pages worth of comments less, since the constant whine drove people away. We never really action balance whine in LR threads, but back then we had to.
And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on.
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On April 15 2017 01:17 Varbind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 06:48 Ishmael wrote:
I mean... the adept is really stupid to watch This cannot be stated enough. Blizzard cannot think only of balance but also of spectator enjoyment as well if they truly want SC2 to be a long standing esport like BW
To be fair, spectator enjoyment is how we also ended up with things like the Widow Mine, which might be fun to watch but definitely isn't fun to play with or against.
The Adept isn't fun to watch or play with. It just exists there disliked by everyone except people who want Protoss to have a crutch to win matches with.
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On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on.
You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning.
Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions.
With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli.
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On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). Tournament threads had 10-20 pages worth of comments less, since the constant whine drove people away. We never really action balance whine in LR threads, but back then we had to. And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on.
I'd argue losing every game to a blink all-in is understandably much more frustrating than losing half your games to BL/infestor and winning the other half with 2-base all-ins. I wasn't an admin then and can't say for certain who whines the most now, but shitting on ~1/3 of the community on page 1 of a community feedback thread just because you think they whined too much in the ZParcraft days seems... a bit much.
Edit: I reread your post on page 1 and "shitting on" is probably too strong a descriptor, although on first read I definitely got a "fucking terrans, always fucking up my game" vibe.
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On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on.
If we're going by Code S representation (which is the most important metric imo) then no, no race ever performed that badly with just 3 terrans in Code S (2 of them being seeded from the previous season, the 3rd qualifying by avoiding tvp). I think Protoss had 5 during the 1/1/1 era which is the only period even comparable to the blink era. I wasn't around back then so I don't know how heavily protoss players complained.
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On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). Tournament threads had 10-20 pages worth of comments less, since the constant whine drove people away. We never really action balance whine in LR threads, but back then we had to. And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on.
Everyone forgets early zerg
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli.
Ok then. Not that this is the point anyway, but I know it happened. I was there when it happened, I talked to them then. You didn't.
The point is that whine has always been worst when Protoss was doing well and when Terran wasn't. And if you take a close look at balance changes Blizzard has made historically, the most important ones were always moved by huge complaints. Remember what happened that ended the "blink era"? They nerfed MSC vision, timewarp, gave mines +shield damage and changed maps to be anti-blink. The map change alone and one of the MSC changes would have done it. But they pushed out a patch that eliminated not only the common blink playstyles, but also every Templar playstyle in PvT to this day. Protoss were completely screwed over by that, but because the loud part of the community was satisfied that Protoss was easy to play against now, nothing ever happened to address that.
Remember early WoL? Terran had a 67% winrate vs Zergs at one point in 2010. 67%. The matchup stayed heavily in T's favor until October 2011.
Remember what happened recently? Winrates for PvT were far worse than during the blink era for 4 months. The lowest winrate Terran ever had during that time was around 45%, and that happened once . That's bad. Protoss was between 41-45% for 4 months after November 2016. The 41% included 400 more games than Terran's 45% too, making it that much more significant.
In March Protoss had a 49% winrate and already Terrans were back to whining, and already there's an adept nerf in the works. The point is that the community has a real impact on Blizzard's balance patching, and the community has largely been anti-Protoss for a long time now.
That is my opinion anyway, and it's based on 6 years of observing the game and its community closely - it's my job now, in fact. Do with it what you want.
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On April 15 2017 01:40 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli. Ok then.
To be fair Zealously specifically cites a lot of these other factors (ded gaem, Blizzard<Valve, etc.) in that post. To me the obvious difference between ZParcraft era and, say, Zergs at the start of WoL would be that while there was prolonged and obvious imbalance in both cases, in ZParcraft era it was compounded by a lot of genuine fears about the future of SC2, with a lot of people worried that something like the GSL might not be able to keep the doors open until LotV.
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On April 14 2017 03:12 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 03:08 Olli wrote:
Nothing about tanks, great stuff. One month of Protoss doing well vs Terran and they're patching, 4 months of tanks wrecking Protoss and still nothing. Classic Blizzard, only listening to the loudest balance whine which always, always, always comes from the Terran part of the community.
You have to nerf tanks if you're nerfing adepts, or we'll be right back at 40% winrate for PvT. To be somewhat fair they do say both PvZ and PvT are affected by adepts. Two races complaining probably feels a lot more significant than one race
Doesn't mean he/she is wrong though. Number of race complains means nothing if it is true or not and I totally agree Terran do whine the most all the time. Avilo is like thee stereotype Terran player in a nutshell, constantly bitching even when things are balanced etc not all terran players are like this though but mostly e.g. code s two runs in a row only one terran makes it into the competition, totally agreed that they needed a buff, they get a thor buff (RIP Scarlett) Hellbat buff (RIP lower skill community) and the widow mine reverted back (well done) and the terran community still bitched *face palm*
On a side note. I hope the new lead balance director or whatever it's called has an actual spine and doesn't listen to the bitching and looks at things from a more logical than emotional approach.
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On April 15 2017 01:01 Ransomstarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 23:36 temporary1 wrote:On April 14 2017 23:15 Aegwynn wrote:On April 14 2017 22:14 temporary1 wrote:On April 14 2017 20:35 Elentos wrote:
I wonder how much the race distribution on ladder actually tells us. Percentage wise there are more Protoss players now than a year ago. Was Protoss off worse back then? I wouldn't say so. Race distribution is pretty much the only thing that tells anything about the ladder and whole playerbase. Back in early years of SC2 Blizzard released winrates for ladder, which is interesting since system basically forces every player to 50% winrate, so If one advances from bronze to GM, only thing that changes during this in the big picture is his/her league. Therefore, it is league distribution that tells the tale of what really happens in ladder. Race distribution doesn't tell anything about balance. Players most likely choose whatever they find more fun. People rarely choose races based on strength, even choosing the underdog race is more common behaviour than choosing the op one. This race distribution only shows that in lotv, playing protoss is less fun than playing terran & zerg. This is what should be adressed in the first place. P.s: It may sound funny but i think the biggest reason for that is the new shitty chronoboost. Race distribution may not tell much about balance, since it can be affected by personal preference, and I did put that there by mistake. However, there is no concluse evidence that protoss is less played because it is less fun; the reason that protoss is less played because it is more difficult to play is just as, if not more, plausible as a reason. What can and probably should be derived from the chart, however, is league distribution, which means how players of a race are distributed among leagues. As you can see, Protoss has almost third of the bronze playerbase, and this percentage is significantly smaller in higher leagues. Simply put, protoss players tend to end up in lower leagues and zerg players end up in higher leagues, while terran is the middle ground. If we use Occam's razor and assume the most obvious answer is the correct one, this tells us that protoss is dirstributed that way because it is either more difficult to play and/or underpowered compared to terran and especially zerg. No, in a game where the campaign has 30 Terran missions for the first expansion, you're going to end up with a lot of Terran players. My friend played Protoss in SC1. He has played exclusively Terran in SC2, and that's entirely because he familiarized himself with the race through the campaign. In addition, Terran has changed the least from SC1, so it's the easiest to use if you're an SC2 player from way back.
The thing is, though, that neither race nor league distribution inside protoss was this skewed in WoL, and even in HotS things were relatively even across the board (according to my recollection). The fading off of protoss is mostly LotV-related.
Other things you mentioned didn't have much connection to what I wrote about, so I don't address that.
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On April 15 2017 01:40 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli. Ok then. Not that this is the point anyway, but I know it happened. I was there when it happened, I talked to them then. You didn't. The point is that whine has always been worst when Protoss was doing well and when Terran wasn't. And if you take a close look at balance changes Blizzard has made historically, the most important ones were always moved by huge complaints. Remember what happened that ended the "blink era"? They nerfed MSC vision, timewarp, gave mines +shield damage and changed maps to be anti-blink. The map change alone and one of the MSC changes would have done it. But they pushed out a patch that eliminated not only the common blink playstyles, but also every Templar playstyle in PvT to this day. Protoss were completely screwed over by that, but because the loud part of the community was satisfied that Protoss was easy to play against now, nothing ever happened to address that. Remember early WoL? Terran had a 67% winrate vs Zergs at one point in 2010. 67%. The matchup stayed heavily in T's favor until October 2011. Remember what happened recently? Winrates for PvT were far worse than during the blink era for 4 months. The lowest winrate Terran ever had during that time was around 45%, and that happened once . That's bad. Protoss was between 41-45% for 4 months after November 2016. The 41% included 400 more games than Terran's 45% too, making it that much more significant. In March Protoss had a 49% winrate and already Terrans were back to whining, and already there's an adept nerf in the works. The point is that the community has a real impact on Blizzard's balance patching, and the community has largely been anti-Protoss for a long time now. That is my opinion anyway, and it's based on 6 years of observing the game and its community closely - it's my job now, in fact. Do with it what you want.
I think you're focusing to much on winrates here.
Winrates are certainly a factor for judging balance but not the only one and there are situations where winrates can be very misleading.
For example during the blink era we saw most terran players getting eliminated very early or not even qualifying and then we were left with just the very top terrans getting a 50-50 winrate against mostly mediocre protoss.
Or when certain players are just farming online tournaments left and right it also screws the validity of winrates.
Sometimes there are also just extreme mismatches like at WESG where TY and Maru just destroyed everyone.
Yes protoss had a 41% winrate in pvt but they had still 3 players in the ro8 of gsl (who all played multiple PvTs to get there) so things clearly weren't as bad.
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On April 15 2017 01:40 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli. Ok then. Not that this is the point anyway, but I know it happened. I was there when it happened, I talked to them then. You didn't. The point is that whine has always been worst when Protoss was doing well and when Terran wasn't. And if you take a close look at balance changes Blizzard has made historically, the most important ones were always moved by huge complaints. Remember what happened that ended the "blink era"? They nerfed MSC vision, timewarp, gave mines +shield damage and changed maps to be anti-blink. The map change alone and one of the MSC changes would have done it. But they pushed out a patch that eliminated not only the common blink playstyles, but also every Templar playstyle in PvT to this day. Protoss were completely screwed over by that, but because the loud part of the community was satisfied that Protoss was easy to play against now, nothing ever happened to address that. Remember early WoL? Terran had a 67% winrate vs Zergs at one point in 2010. 67%. The matchup stayed heavily in T's favor until October 2011. Remember what happened recently? Winrates for PvT were far worse than during the blink era for 4 months. The lowest winrate Terran ever had during that time was around 45%, and that happened once . That's bad. Protoss was between 41-45% for 4 months after November 2016. The 41% included 400 more games than Terran's 45% too, making it that much more significant. In March Protoss had a 49% winrate and already Terrans were back to whining, and already there's an adept nerf in the works. The point is that the community has a real impact on Blizzard's balance patching, and the community has largely been anti-Protoss for a long time now. That is my opinion anyway, and it's based on 6 years of observing the game and its community closely - it's my job now, in fact. Do with it what you want.
I agree that the community is largely anti protoss. I wouldn't say it's necessarily the fault of the community though. I think it is the fault of the game. When losing to protoss most people simply feel like it was unfair, like it was some "protoss bs" which won. I said it somewhere else but the aesthetics are incredibly important as well. Watching adepts shade on top of units is simply ugly. Watching a bio terran split his stuff against banelings is not. Both interactions might be 100% balanced, but that doesn't matter because each time the adepts win it feels unfair simply by how the unit interactions work there.
Same thing with forcefields back in the day. So yeah i agree that the general opinion of protoss is negative and it's not even about balance at that point, it's about unit interactions, general protoss playstyle and the aesthetics of it.
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On April 15 2017 01:40 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli. Ok then. Not that this is the point anyway, but I know it happened. I was there when it happened, I talked to them then. You didn't. The point is that whine has always been worst when Protoss was doing well and when Terran wasn't. And if you take a close look at balance changes Blizzard has made historically, the most important ones were always moved by huge complaints. Remember what happened that ended the "blink era"? They nerfed MSC vision, timewarp, gave mines +shield damage and changed maps to be anti-blink. The map change alone and one of the MSC changes would have done it. But they pushed out a patch that eliminated not only the common blink playstyles, but also every Templar playstyle in PvT to this day. Protoss were completely screwed over by that, but because the loud part of the community was satisfied that Protoss was easy to play against now, nothing ever happened to address that. Remember early WoL? Terran had a 67% winrate vs Zergs at one point in 2010. 67%. The matchup stayed heavily in T's favor until October 2011. Remember what happened recently? Winrates for PvT were far worse than during the blink era for 4 months. The lowest winrate Terran ever had during that time was around 45%, and that happened once . That's bad. Protoss was between 41-45% for 4 months after November 2016. The 41% included 400 more games than Terran's 45% too, making it that much more significant. In March Protoss had a 49% winrate and already Terrans were back to whining, and already there's an adept nerf in the works. The point is that the community has a real impact on Blizzard's balance patching, and the community has largely been anti-Protoss for a long time now. That is my opinion anyway, and it's based on 6 years of observing the game and its community closely - it's my job now, in fact. Do with it what you want.
As others said you focus too much on winrates.
Theres unfair stuff in all MUs for all said but the fact that protoss is the most complained about in all levels and all eras does goes to say the design it has and the game play it leads to.
People just don't enjoy playing against protoss regardless of everything else.
Also don't go around saying "terrans players are the whinest" or "anti protoss sentiment" because they make no sense, unless you are making a study that can clearly show a link between personality and the race you play in a video game saying that "terrans players are all X" and "the community thinks Y" is just personal bias derived from experience and means nothing but looking to start a fight for totally unnecesary reasons.
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nah terran players are definitely the biggest crybabies
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On April 15 2017 03:36 Ej_ wrote:
nah terran players are definitely the biggest crybabies
We're just sad because it's so lonely at the top.
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balancing this unit from the gateway has led to all sorts of problems and meta shifts, I'd almost like to see these units come from robotics or maybe only available from the warp-gateways
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EPT
