EPTSo no it's not balanced, it makes the adepts basically worthless.
Community Feedback Update- April 13 - Page 9
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
So no it's not balanced, it makes the adepts basically worthless. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
I would personally like to see a short attack delay when the shades finish. The first invulnerable volley out of shades can decimate the high dps units in opposing armies before they even attack and it feels a bit silly because suddenly the fights aren´t trades but lopsided affairs from the beginning. Actually this is a good point. As it stands currently, Adepts always get the first volley off, and like Tasteless says all the time about mech, (paraphrasing) battles are about who shoots first. Putting in a delay to let the other side shoot first would be a great change and is a viable alternative to what Blizzard is suggesting. A -10 health nerf would be just as good though. Lmao @40 health Adepts. As much as I hate Adepts, that's completely ridiculous and would basically remove them from the game. Even 110 health Adepts would still be too weak. 10 less hp is a perfectly reasonable nerf. | ||
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R4iNy
Czech Republic8 Posts
On April 14 2017 17:27 R4iNy wrote: Hello everybody As a high master/low GM Terran player I think that increasing cooldown of a shade is too little of a change, and reducing the HP's by 10 might be too drastic. So I would like to propose a middle way solution to the problem. I would increase the cooldown of a shade to 14 seconds like already proposed by the balance team and in addition to that I would make adepts a bit more vulnerable to attacks for a short period of time right after the shade is finished (like while warping in units, they take a bit more damage in the process) This would force protoss players to really think the action through, if it is really worth it to shade the adepts on top of the army and it would add a nice balanced disadvantage to the move as the shade itself ( on top of the army ) counters units that need to kited (Like bio, roaches, hydras, queens etc.) But on the otherside there would be no downside to the shade (such as reducing HP would be) if the defending players doesnt react in time for example while defending his mineral line. To compensate such a change I would boost the vision of a shade a little bit, so Protoss player and get enough information to make a final decision. I think this change could be balanced very easily, because the team can always change the duration of such debuff and can also tweak the percentage of damage taken bonus. I have been talking with some of the other players about this idea (e.g. beastyqt and some of the NA zerg players) and we made a nice additional point to the change. Right now, protoss doesnt really need to initiate a fight before he shades which might be main mistake there is with the unit. We agreed that the purpose of this unit IS to get on top of the army, but we also realized .. that it disagrees with the idea of the units that requires kiting to be efficient at all. We were talking about if the suggested change is too big of a nerf or not and we agreed it might be a bit too much if the debuff would be longer than 4 seconds. So if protoss players would still use adepts as a core unit of their army after this change would be applied .. it might not be a good idea to initiate the fight with shades .. instead it would be a nice way to finish the fight or to harras .. since for protoss player it might be a better idea to initiate a fight with an attack and after the fight starts they would shade on top of the army if they think it is a good idea. This way the fight would start with adepts being tanky as normal and the shade would be a nice tool to finish the fight or zone the opponets army into a bad position, but it would make adepts more vulnerable for like 2-4 seconds and the "tanky" role of the unit would be switched to an offensive dps unit for that period of time, after that adepts would be tanky as usual. To finish it all again, I think this is the great change if we are looking for the nerf of an adepts mainly in the fight scenarios and not too much in harras scenarios, since when Protoss harrases, they dont really need adepts to tank damage, they just need to damage as much as possible. Thank you. | ||
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NomaKasd
Scotland65 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
1. Make them vulnerable like the Warp Gate thing as the GM Terran player said making Shade inherently more risky (pretty good) 2. Adding an attack delay after they get out of Shade so they can't get that initial volley off (didn't even realize this it's good but probably won't make them too much worse) 3. Straight nerfing the HP (Probably the easiest and most feel good but I don't think it makes them any less gimmicky) My other issue with the Adept is that it pretty much does the Stalkers and Zealots job early game and mid game, late game Zealot drops are a bit less of a resource investment to bring down Hatcheries but the point remains, why ever really build Zealots and Stalkers when you could just mass more Adepts? Which at their very core are tanky front line fighters who also excel at pulling armies out of position and also excel at attacking enemy economy. The Zealot's identity was a tanky front line fighter, the Stalkers identity was lost somewhere back in HOTS and definitely in LOTV with the rise of the Hydralisks and Siege Tanks but at one point it was a high micro high skill cap unit that needed to be blinked and well controlled to stay alive and get it's maximum value, the Adepts identity pretty much completely replaces the Stalker who's only saving grace is that it can shoot air but Protoss players widely know that if you're building Stalkers vs. Mutalisks, it's pretty much already GG, and in the majority of situations replaces the Zealot because it's just as tanky but can Shade and it's ranged. The only reason Zealot/Immortal/Archon is the composition is because every drop of gas is needed for the Immortals and the Archons and Protoss can't really afford too much spare gas on Adepts. If the Protoss player is ahead or has any type of economic leeway, you can bet your ass that they will be sprinkling in as many Adepts as they can afford, and why wouldnt they? Wish List for Adept - Remove Shade entirely but buff Adepts movement speed to be more on par with the Stalker - Change Resonating Glaives to still give the attack speed increase while giving it a bounce (attacks one other unit at half damage) but change the cost to 200/200 with a hefty research time - Nerf their HP by 10 so you are building a unit that isn't inherently superior to the Zealot in pretty much every way and the Zealot remains the front line tank Reasoning is that with Stalker level movement speed, the Adept would benefit from real applied micro and not merely Shade micro which comes across as more of a gimmick/not well designed from a player or spectator stand point. The early game mobility buff alone would more then allow it to still function as an early game raider and would make Shade a moot point, while the HP nerf would ensure that they would not be as overwhelming and suffocating as they are currently. Buffing their upgrade but making it more time consuming but more expensive is to give the Adept (in it's new micro friendly form) will give it a more powerful midgame power spike and allow it to fight Terran bio head to head once the Medivac count starts to rise. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
Does anyone actually LIKE playing against Adepts? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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t0ssboy
Bulgaria681 Posts
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zyce
United States649 Posts
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Elentos
55585 Posts
On April 15 2017 18:02 t0ssboy wrote: Blizzard still haven't realized that if they nerf adepts they need to buff some other protoss unit, otherwise we will be back at 40% in BOTH matchups. Considering the last sentence of the update is them saying they'll explore moving some of the strength of the adept to the zealot, I don't think it's a lost cause. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 15 2017 18:25 Elentos wrote: Considering the last sentence of the update is them saying they'll explore moving some of the strength of the adept to the zealot, I don't think it's a lost cause. Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't play much LotV nowadays), but zealots aren't that good vs terran. They have widow mines. It's the same reason why zealots weren't that effective in HotS. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On April 15 2017 18:29 Shield wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't play much LotV nowadays), but zealots aren't that good vs terran. They have widow mines. It's the same reason why zealots weren't that effective in HotS. Widow mines got nerfed, so they are not as a big of a deal to protoss as they had been before | ||
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Elentos
55585 Posts
On April 15 2017 18:29 Shield wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't play much LotV nowadays), but zealots aren't that good vs terran. They have widow mines. It's the same reason why zealots weren't that effective in HotS. They were still used though, unlike now where zealots are a dead unit in the match-up - even after the widow mine nerf (and the buffs to Charge in LotV). And I mean why wouldn't you make adepts instead, they can get on top of the army without taking damage before the fight really starts, zealots don't have that luxury. Buffing the zealot might not be the right idea, but hey, at least they realize they might need to do more than just nerf adepts. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they just overbuffed the zealot and it broke PvZ on their first try. | ||
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Turb0Sw4g
74 Posts
* Adepts will trade shade and tankiness for base DPS and some kind of microable passive ability (not active, because we've got enough of those). * Zealots get two Twilight Council upgrades. One for movement speed and one which gives a short stun on attack as a replacement of Charge (should be on a cooldown of a few seconds ofc). * Stalkers get 14 flat damage, increased cost and potentially increased HP/shields If this happens all the Gateway units have a specific role: Adepts supply DPS and are excellent for harass (but aren't good on their own in straight up fights); Zealots are tanky frontline fighters with a bit of crowd control (you will always want to have Zealot + X in straight up fights); and Stalkers are generalists with medium DPS which benefit heavily from Blink micro and shoot air. They would also combine well: Zealot + Adept for straight up engagements against heavy light compositions (like Bio or Zergling based compositions); Zealots + Stalkers for straight up engagements against heavy armored compositions (like Mech or Roach + Ravager); Adept + Stalker would probably be more of a fringe composition but could be best against something like Bling + Roach + Ravager. In any case, clear role differentiation needs to happen. A tanky, high DPS unit with a 1-button-escape like the current Adept makes no sense. | ||
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revolt77
7 Posts
I had an idea the most time adept discussion is live. What about this: Let the shade being attacked, but only the shields. This would decrease its herass potential, starts new interaction for players in defending and makes it much more interesting to watch. The shading player also has to think twice when to shade. Scouting with them would possible costs the shields. Shading on armies would have less power. But doesn´t effect them to much? Whish u all good days! | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Then the other knows where the adepts will pop if the Protoss hasn't cancelled, and can't be baited by the cancel at the last second. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On April 15 2017 19:41 Tyrhanius wrote: What about : Shade can't be cancelled after 5s ? Then the other knows where the adepts will pop if the Protoss hasn't cancelled, and can't be baited by the cancel at the last second. Regardless of exact number (it has to be tested instead of a random number), I think it'll be nice to have a timer on top of unit to say 1s, 2s, 3s, etc. It should be visible at least to adepts' owner and observers. I don't know about enemy. The idea is to reduce luck.  | ||
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Zrana1
Netherlands45 Posts
Looking at the Marine/Medivac drop instead, this is a composition like the Adept. It's mostly minerals, with some gas. They are both core parts of the army. You have mobility and potential for lots of damage. You expect sometimes to lose the marines, sometimes the medivac as well, but there is strong potential for escaping. With the marine/medivac comp, balancing has always been done on the medivac (the mobility) rather than the marines, which have remained almost completely unchanged. It would be wisest to nerf the shade rather than anything related to their combat strength, because less combat strength means less incentive to build them at all, which means much less harass happens, which means deathball again. If you look at the stalker, which was designed for WoL, before the hyper-harass of LotV, it's not really worth harassing with it as the resource commitment to potential eco damage ratio is just bad. Its semi-ok in the main army, but you just don't see it that much early on because it does not deal damage quick enough, and really it's just a boring component of the deathball, necessary for shooting up at air units that storm/archons bruise. We don't want a similar thing to happen to the adept as well. My suggestion would be to increase the cooldown quite drastically, so that if you don't use it for escape you are usually committing those units to die. Then, i'd increase the carrying capacity of the warp prism for gateway units and nerf it's HP and warp in times. The effect would be that the warp prism becomes a better delivery tool for all gateway units without negating defender's advantage for big fights, and you'll need to babysit the WP and adepts more. For larger fights the shading on top of your enemy potential is still there basically how it was, except with higher cooldown you need to be more careful in downtime. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On April 15 2017 18:35 Elentos wrote: They were still used though, unlike now where zealots are a dead unit in the match-up - even after the widow mine nerf (and the buffs to Charge in LotV). And I mean why wouldn't you make adepts instead, they can get on top of the army without taking damage before the fight really starts, zealots don't have that luxury. Buffing the zealot might not be the right idea, but hey, at least they realize they might need to do more than just nerf adepts. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they just overbuffed the zealot and it broke PvZ on their first try. What if they actually removed the adept as a separate unit? Hear me out: If you maintain zealots as they are, but provide adepts as upgraded zealots. So resonating glaves, instead of just increasing attack speed actually transforms zealots into adepts. Each zealot could then merge his consciousness with the psionic matrix for a short period of time, ( day 15 sec and for a cost of 50/50) and emerge as a stronger fighting unit, similar to lurkers. That way, you maintain zealots early game, you create a need for them to be built, you allow adepts to come into the game a little bit later (and can tweak them a little more easily in terms of availability and cost: make the research take longer/shorter, make the individual warp transformation take longer/shorter or be more expensive) without destroying the flexibility that adepts provide. I'd argue at this point, those charges are so drastic that you leave the rest of them alone /buff something else so Ps don't just get rolled over by big pushes and just get sieged to death. What do people think about this? | ||
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