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On April 18 2017 08:47 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +Did protoss need a nerf in pvz? I saw many complaints about pvt, but not pvz. Blizzard made the right decision unless there's something I'm missing. Strictly balance-wise, no, Zergs didn't. PvZ winrates are balanced (and with the nerf it would be a good idea to watch PvZ carefully to see if Protoss needs a buff there). But Adepts shading between mineral lines is extremely frustrating to play against, even if Zergs did win about half the games in the end. I agree that Blizzard made the right call here.
playing against ling bane drops and allins is not frustrating to play against ah i see the logic.
playing against window mine drops and drops is not frustrating.
then lets remove all harass options for each race not only protoss.
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I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums. These forums have the potential to reintroduce ideas for units that have a poor place in the game as a whole. I don't know that anyone's happy with the current situation on units like the Thor, Swarm Host, or Tempest, not to mention current issues with the adept, mine, and liberator, and then we are asked opinions on this by the design team (may their names be obscured forever) and after the conversation begins to develop people ring in with things like "I'd like to start my own conversation about how Bio and Medivacs need to not exist".
Maybe in some alternate Starcraft 3 universe this will happen. But this is at the hypothesis/theory level and you need some more evidence that this would work than "trust me guys, the game sucks right now but the game I would make... out of the game they made... would be awesome!"
Hating on the balance team is ridiculous. I've played around 1200 different games in my life, and Starcraft is the best game i've ever played. I have 1100 games in my console library for everything from NES to PS3 and there are some incredible games in there, but Starcraft 2 is still my favorite game. This is not by accident folks! I really think some of you should ask yourselves if you're just anti-authority in general, and mad at the balance team because they have the power to change things and aren't changing them in your favor. Share recommendations, share opinions, don't share this "my competence to judge this game dwarfs theirs" nonsense.
Now, on to the current situation. I don't think -10 to adepts health will help much. I understand a need for Protoss to have an all-around, bread and butter type of unit, but the problem with that is Protoss is still the race with the most powerful high tech units (Immortal, Void Ray, archon, etc.) and so balancing those compositions is a nightmare since massing adepts works so well. The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. In the meantime, the stalker has served well for Protoss as the unit you know will get you some map control and strength early on but that you do not want to end up with 40 of by the end game.
Make the stalker great again, let the adept become who it was born to be.
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On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums. These forums have the potential to reintroduce ideas for units that have a poor place in the game as a whole. I don't know that anyone's happy with the current situation on units like the Thor, Swarm Host, or Tempest, not to mention current issues with the adept, mine, and liberator, and then we are asked opinions on this by the design team (may their names be obscured forever) and after the conversation begins to develop people ring in with things like "I'd like to start my own conversation about how Bio and Medivacs need to not exist".
Maybe in some alternate Starcraft 3 universe this will happen. But this is at the hypothesis/theory level and you need some more evidence that this would work than "trust me guys, the game sucks right now but the game I would make... out of the game they made... would be awesome!"
Hating on the balance team is ridiculous. I've played around 1200 different games in my life, and Starcraft is the best game i've ever played. I have 1100 games in my console library for everything from NES to PS3 and there are some incredible games in there, but Starcraft 2 is still my favorite game. This is not by accident folks! I really think some of you should ask yourselves if you're just anti-authority in general, and mad at the balance team because they have the power to change things and aren't changing them in your favor. Share recommendations, share opinions, don't share this "my competence to judge this game dwarfs theirs" nonsense.
Now, on to the current situation. I don't think -10 to adepts health will help much. I understand a need for Protoss to have an all-around, bread and butter type of unit, but the problem with that is Protoss is still the race with the most powerful high tech units (Immortal, Void Ray, archon, etc.) and so balancing those compositions is a nightmare since massing adepts works so well. The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. In the meantime, the stalker has served well for Protoss as the unit you know will get you some map control and strength early on but that you do not want to end up with 40 of by the end game.
Make the stalker great again, let the adept become who it was born to be.
I made a mod to try LOTV with the HOTS economy ( 6 harvesters start, 10 supply) nobody try it. Cause you need a friend to play it, you cannot just click on "Play" and try it.
At the same times, i think the TeamLiquid guys are pretty elitist. I was totally agree with "The Eulogy for a 6 pool", i try to continue on this idea with my mod and nobody answer on the thread.. I mean nobody from TL, from "The Eulogy for a 6 pool" writers. It's like you need to be "somebody" to say something relevant, even if you give some tools to prove or not an idea, nobody use it... it's weird...
So yes, people don't make mod, cause nobody put forward this kind of work... so you stop. Personally i will not stop but you understand the general idea
I think people like to speak, not to prove... so we lost a lot of time on discussion for nothing... Maybe TL can change something, for sur Blizzard can change something, for the rest... we speak speak speak.. and game is still unplayed...
Ps: i don't speak about adept cause i have a complicated review, than i can't expose with my poor english. ++
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Hey Anoss,
I'd love to try your mod. I've got about an hour here if you do. Tell me where to meet up and let's give it a shot.
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France13018 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:14 AnossSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums. These forums have the potential to reintroduce ideas for units that have a poor place in the game as a whole. I don't know that anyone's happy with the current situation on units like the Thor, Swarm Host, or Tempest, not to mention current issues with the adept, mine, and liberator, and then we are asked opinions on this by the design team (may their names be obscured forever) and after the conversation begins to develop people ring in with things like "I'd like to start my own conversation about how Bio and Medivacs need to not exist".
Maybe in some alternate Starcraft 3 universe this will happen. But this is at the hypothesis/theory level and you need some more evidence that this would work than "trust me guys, the game sucks right now but the game I would make... out of the game they made... would be awesome!"
Hating on the balance team is ridiculous. I've played around 1200 different games in my life, and Starcraft is the best game i've ever played. I have 1100 games in my console library for everything from NES to PS3 and there are some incredible games in there, but Starcraft 2 is still my favorite game. This is not by accident folks! I really think some of you should ask yourselves if you're just anti-authority in general, and mad at the balance team because they have the power to change things and aren't changing them in your favor. Share recommendations, share opinions, don't share this "my competence to judge this game dwarfs theirs" nonsense.
Now, on to the current situation. I don't think -10 to adepts health will help much. I understand a need for Protoss to have an all-around, bread and butter type of unit, but the problem with that is Protoss is still the race with the most powerful high tech units (Immortal, Void Ray, archon, etc.) and so balancing those compositions is a nightmare since massing adepts works so well. The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. In the meantime, the stalker has served well for Protoss as the unit you know will get you some map control and strength early on but that you do not want to end up with 40 of by the end game.
Make the stalker great again, let the adept become who it was born to be. I made a mod to try LOTV with the HOTS economy ( 6 harvesters start, 10 supply) nobody try it. Cause you need a friend to play it, you cannot just click on "Play" and try it. At the same times, i think the TeamLiquid guys are pretty elitist. I was totally agree with "The Eulogy for a 6 pool", i try to continue on this idea with my mod and nobody answer on the thread.. I mean nobody from TL, from "The Eulogy for a 6 pool" writers. It's like you need to be "somebody" to say something relevant, even if you give some tools to prove or not an idea, nobody use it... it's weird... So yes, people don't make mod, cause nobody put forward this kind of work... so you stop. Personally i will not stop but you understand the general idea I think people like to speak, not to prove... so we lost a lot of time on discussion for nothing... Maybe TL can change something, for sur Blizzard can change something, for the rest... we speak speak speak.. and game is still unplayed... Ps: i don't speak about adept cause i have a complicated review, than i can't expose with my poor english. ++
I don't think the writers play Starcraft 2 anyways so there is that.
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On April 15 2017 03:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2017 01:40 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:24 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:19 Olli wrote:On April 15 2017 01:10 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 15 2017 01:09 Charoisaur wrote:On April 14 2017 23:53 Olli wrote:On April 14 2017 23:07 DeadByDawn wrote:
Also, sad to see such groundless bias from an admin, guess we are all human though. I've seen the community react to the state of balance for 6 years. I know what I'm talking about. We specifically had to change posting rules for tournament threads when Terran was doing poorly because it was unbearable and drove parts of our community and some of our own staff away. It was never nearly as bad with the other two races. But sure, "groundless bias". If you're talking about the blink era - at no other point a race performed that poorly so it's not entirely fair to say that terrans just happen to be immature whiners. In my experience terrans and zergs both whine equally much with protoss whining the least. I can almost be certain he's talking about the Blink Era. I remember Olli borderline gloating in those threads. Granted he wasn't an admin then. At least I stuck around. Zealously and a few other writers simply quit (some came back later). And the idea that no race ever performed as badly as the blink era is laughable. You must have forgotten the 1-1-1, or how Protoss struggled against BL/infestor. Or even how Zerg did early on. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that the reason TL lost writers was because of commuinity reactions to balance in the LR threads. That shit has been around since the beginning. Likely writers got bored for many of the same reasons I did and am here not as often as I used to be. WCS got watered down over the years, the Korean scene suffered, ProLeague died, the most exciting Zerg the game has ever seen got banned and LoTV has produced thus far very uncompelling Starcraft compared to what we've seen in the previous expansions. With everything else that has happened in the scene since then you're really expecting me to believe that a disproportionate amount of balance complaining drove everyone away? Good luck selling that narrative Olli. Ok then. Not that this is the point anyway, but I know it happened. I was there when it happened, I talked to them then. You didn't. The point is that whine has always been worst when Protoss was doing well and when Terran wasn't. And if you take a close look at balance changes Blizzard has made historically, the most important ones were always moved by huge complaints. Remember what happened that ended the "blink era"? They nerfed MSC vision, timewarp, gave mines +shield damage and changed maps to be anti-blink. The map change alone and one of the MSC changes would have done it. But they pushed out a patch that eliminated not only the common blink playstyles, but also every Templar playstyle in PvT to this day. Protoss were completely screwed over by that, but because the loud part of the community was satisfied that Protoss was easy to play against now, nothing ever happened to address that. Remember early WoL? Terran had a 67% winrate vs Zergs at one point in 2010. 67%. The matchup stayed heavily in T's favor until October 2011. Remember what happened recently? Winrates for PvT were far worse than during the blink era for 4 months. The lowest winrate Terran ever had during that time was around 45%, and that happened once . That's bad. Protoss was between 41-45% for 4 months after November 2016. The 41% included 400 more games than Terran's 45% too, making it that much more significant. In March Protoss had a 49% winrate and already Terrans were back to whining, and already there's an adept nerf in the works. The point is that the community has a real impact on Blizzard's balance patching, and the community has largely been anti-Protoss for a long time now. That is my opinion anyway, and it's based on 6 years of observing the game and its community closely - it's my job now, in fact. Do with it what you want. I agree that the community is largely anti protoss. I wouldn't say it's necessarily the fault of the community though. I think it is the fault of the game. When losing to protoss most people simply feel like it was unfair, like it was some "protoss bs" which won. I said it somewhere else but the aesthetics are incredibly important as well. Watching adepts shade on top of units is simply ugly. Watching a bio terran split his stuff against banelings is not. Both interactions might be 100% balanced, but that doesn't matter because each time the adepts win it feels unfair simply by how the unit interactions work there. Same thing with forcefields back in the day. So yeah i agree that the general opinion of protoss is negative and it's not even about balance at that point, it's about unit interactions, general protoss playstyle and the aesthetics of it.
Completely agreed, this is the main reason that's for sure.
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On April 18 2017 23:15 MarianoSC2 wrote:
This is nowhere near enough... Adepts have a completely broken concept as a Unit. Yes, cooldown increase and HP reduction are both a necessity (dont understand why they want to implement only 1 that is utter bullshit), but we need something to make to protoss decide if they want to use the shade or not. Something like Adept shields will go to 0 when shade is used, so protoss cant just shade on top of army and between bases without any consequences.
if a major event were not right around the corner i bet you Blizz would've given a more substantial nerf to the Adept and then pulled back if it were too much.
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On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums.
...
The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. ...
The hypocrisy is strong within you.  
Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. The thing is, the map editor is very buggy (at least on a Mac) and you won't very likely gather enough of a following to properly test it as AnossSc2 has said. I would love a community mod where a couple of people work together making the changes and where each change follows a community decision (for example by first making a request for change suggestions, then letting the community decide on what changes seem most promising). But I'm not sure if this is feasible, mostly because it would take a very long time.
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 19 2017 01:50 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 01:14 AnossSc2 wrote:On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums. These forums have the potential to reintroduce ideas for units that have a poor place in the game as a whole. I don't know that anyone's happy with the current situation on units like the Thor, Swarm Host, or Tempest, not to mention current issues with the adept, mine, and liberator, and then we are asked opinions on this by the design team (may their names be obscured forever) and after the conversation begins to develop people ring in with things like "I'd like to start my own conversation about how Bio and Medivacs need to not exist".
Maybe in some alternate Starcraft 3 universe this will happen. But this is at the hypothesis/theory level and you need some more evidence that this would work than "trust me guys, the game sucks right now but the game I would make... out of the game they made... would be awesome!"
Hating on the balance team is ridiculous. I've played around 1200 different games in my life, and Starcraft is the best game i've ever played. I have 1100 games in my console library for everything from NES to PS3 and there are some incredible games in there, but Starcraft 2 is still my favorite game. This is not by accident folks! I really think some of you should ask yourselves if you're just anti-authority in general, and mad at the balance team because they have the power to change things and aren't changing them in your favor. Share recommendations, share opinions, don't share this "my competence to judge this game dwarfs theirs" nonsense.
Now, on to the current situation. I don't think -10 to adepts health will help much. I understand a need for Protoss to have an all-around, bread and butter type of unit, but the problem with that is Protoss is still the race with the most powerful high tech units (Immortal, Void Ray, archon, etc.) and so balancing those compositions is a nightmare since massing adepts works so well. The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. In the meantime, the stalker has served well for Protoss as the unit you know will get you some map control and strength early on but that you do not want to end up with 40 of by the end game.
Make the stalker great again, let the adept become who it was born to be. I made a mod to try LOTV with the HOTS economy ( 6 harvesters start, 10 supply) nobody try it. Cause you need a friend to play it, you cannot just click on "Play" and try it. At the same times, i think the TeamLiquid guys are pretty elitist. I was totally agree with "The Eulogy for a 6 pool", i try to continue on this idea with my mod and nobody answer on the thread.. I mean nobody from TL, from "The Eulogy for a 6 pool" writers. It's like you need to be "somebody" to say something relevant, even if you give some tools to prove or not an idea, nobody use it... it's weird... So yes, people don't make mod, cause nobody put forward this kind of work... so you stop. Personally i will not stop but you understand the general idea I think people like to speak, not to prove... so we lost a lot of time on discussion for nothing... Maybe TL can change something, for sur Blizzard can change something, for the rest... we speak speak speak.. and game is still unplayed... Ps: i don't speak about adept cause i have a complicated review, than i can't expose with my poor english. ++ I don't think the writers play Starcraft 2 anyways so there is that.
I do! Played Ret on ladder recently and got destroyed so there's proof.
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France13018 Posts
On April 19 2017 03:02 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 01:50 Poopi wrote:On April 19 2017 01:14 AnossSc2 wrote:On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums. These forums have the potential to reintroduce ideas for units that have a poor place in the game as a whole. I don't know that anyone's happy with the current situation on units like the Thor, Swarm Host, or Tempest, not to mention current issues with the adept, mine, and liberator, and then we are asked opinions on this by the design team (may their names be obscured forever) and after the conversation begins to develop people ring in with things like "I'd like to start my own conversation about how Bio and Medivacs need to not exist".
Maybe in some alternate Starcraft 3 universe this will happen. But this is at the hypothesis/theory level and you need some more evidence that this would work than "trust me guys, the game sucks right now but the game I would make... out of the game they made... would be awesome!"
Hating on the balance team is ridiculous. I've played around 1200 different games in my life, and Starcraft is the best game i've ever played. I have 1100 games in my console library for everything from NES to PS3 and there are some incredible games in there, but Starcraft 2 is still my favorite game. This is not by accident folks! I really think some of you should ask yourselves if you're just anti-authority in general, and mad at the balance team because they have the power to change things and aren't changing them in your favor. Share recommendations, share opinions, don't share this "my competence to judge this game dwarfs theirs" nonsense.
Now, on to the current situation. I don't think -10 to adepts health will help much. I understand a need for Protoss to have an all-around, bread and butter type of unit, but the problem with that is Protoss is still the race with the most powerful high tech units (Immortal, Void Ray, archon, etc.) and so balancing those compositions is a nightmare since massing adepts works so well. The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. In the meantime, the stalker has served well for Protoss as the unit you know will get you some map control and strength early on but that you do not want to end up with 40 of by the end game.
Make the stalker great again, let the adept become who it was born to be. I made a mod to try LOTV with the HOTS economy ( 6 harvesters start, 10 supply) nobody try it. Cause you need a friend to play it, you cannot just click on "Play" and try it. At the same times, i think the TeamLiquid guys are pretty elitist. I was totally agree with "The Eulogy for a 6 pool", i try to continue on this idea with my mod and nobody answer on the thread.. I mean nobody from TL, from "The Eulogy for a 6 pool" writers. It's like you need to be "somebody" to say something relevant, even if you give some tools to prove or not an idea, nobody use it... it's weird... So yes, people don't make mod, cause nobody put forward this kind of work... so you stop. Personally i will not stop but you understand the general idea I think people like to speak, not to prove... so we lost a lot of time on discussion for nothing... Maybe TL can change something, for sur Blizzard can change something, for the rest... we speak speak speak.. and game is still unplayed... Ps: i don't speak about adept cause i have a complicated review, than i can't expose with my poor english. ++ I don't think the writers play Starcraft 2 anyways so there is that. I do! Played Ret on ladder recently and got destroyed so there's proof.
Yes I know that you do because you actively whine and stuff :D, which is caring.
But I think most other writers watch sc2 more / far more than play it (which is expected in such an anxiety inducing game), which is sufficient to write stuff about the game, and helps not to be too biased.
Testing mods is painful on sc2 however, you need 2 players to actively want it...
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The Adept change is now live.
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On April 19 2017 02:53 Turb0Sw4g wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums.
...
The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. ... The hypocrisy is strong within you. Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. The thing is, the map editor is very buggy (at least on a Mac) and you won't very likely gather enough of a following to properly test it as AnossSc2 has said. I would love a community mod where a couple of people work together making the changes and where each change follows a community decision (for example by first making a request for change suggestions, then letting the community decide on what changes seem most promising). But I'm not sure if this is feasible, mostly because it would take a very long time.
Anoss, I just sent you a PM.
I love the idea of a community mod. I would enjoy it if the "testing" section were always live with an alternate community mod of the game. Maybe after 3-7 games they ask a few questions about what you liked and didn't like about it. I think that could be automated pretty easily.
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On April 19 2017 06:30 Ransomstarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2017 02:53 Turb0Sw4g wrote:On April 19 2017 00:43 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
I'd like to ask any of you who have these foundational ideas to remake the game from the ground up to take the time to make your own mod and then get people to try it rather than trying to take over conversations on these forums.
...
The answer is a redesign to make the unit a more pure harassment unit comparable to the reaper or zergling rather than these minor tweaks. ... The hypocrisy is strong within you. Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. The thing is, the map editor is very buggy (at least on a Mac) and you won't very likely gather enough of a following to properly test it as AnossSc2 has said. I would love a community mod where a couple of people work together making the changes and where each change follows a community decision (for example by first making a request for change suggestions, then letting the community decide on what changes seem most promising). But I'm not sure if this is feasible, mostly because it would take a very long time. Anoss, I just sent you a PM. I love the idea of a community mod. I would enjoy it if the "testing" section were always live with an alternate community mod of the game. Maybe after 3-7 games they ask a few questions about what you liked and didn't like about it. I think that could be automated pretty easily.
Sorry mate, didn't see, i just answer you 
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EPT
