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On July 13 2016 05:34 vult wrote:
I'm not sure why the game does not just re-include demotions. If a player's MMR is visible, at least they know where they are and if they are on the cusp of demotion, which I believe would be a motivational tool to play harder to avoid demotion. Players who get lucky and place in divisions higher than their actual skill and being stuck in that division the entire season is demotivating for both the player stuck in the higher division, but also any player who plays them thinking that "divisions mean nothing". Every other relevant and large-scale multiplayer competitive game has demotions and that has not effected their player base.
It's just funny that SC2 has an extremely forgiving and misleading ranked system, while Overwatch has one of the most brutal and unforgiving ones. Great job blizz!
well, it could provoke ladder anxiety. for the allmighty gold tier 1 pro, his division is everything. when he sees "oh, i might be 1 or 2 losses away from demotion to tier 2" he could tell himself "nah, i dont wanna play ladder anymore, because i dont want to fall to tier 2."
i would also be happy about demotions, but i guess its the only way to avoid such situations.
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On July 13 2016 06:24 DalaiiLameR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 05:34 vult wrote:
I'm not sure why the game does not just re-include demotions. If a player's MMR is visible, at least they know where they are and if they are on the cusp of demotion, which I believe would be a motivational tool to play harder to avoid demotion. Players who get lucky and place in divisions higher than their actual skill and being stuck in that division the entire season is demotivating for both the player stuck in the higher division, but also any player who plays them thinking that "divisions mean nothing". Every other relevant and large-scale multiplayer competitive game has demotions and that has not effected their player base.
It's just funny that SC2 has an extremely forgiving and misleading ranked system, while Overwatch has one of the most brutal and unforgiving ones. Great job blizz! well, it could provoke ladder anxiety. for the allmighty gold tier 1 pro, his division is everything. when he sees "oh, i might be 1 or 2 losses away from demotion to tier 2" he could tell himself "nah, i dont wanna play ladder anymore, because i dont want to fall to tier 2." i would also be happy about demotions, but i guess its the only way to avoid such situations.
Ladder anxiety shouldn't be an excuse to not make a cohesive system that makes sense. Ladder anxiety is such a silly concept 
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On July 13 2016 05:17 GGzerG wrote:
All I am curious is how Contender league filled up on NA in like 30 minutes, and now it is impossible to get into as well? lol
You just need to beat the MMR of place 200 and you are in - really nice system.
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On July 13 2016 06:31 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 06:24 DalaiiLameR wrote:On July 13 2016 05:34 vult wrote:
I'm not sure why the game does not just re-include demotions. If a player's MMR is visible, at least they know where they are and if they are on the cusp of demotion, which I believe would be a motivational tool to play harder to avoid demotion. Players who get lucky and place in divisions higher than their actual skill and being stuck in that division the entire season is demotivating for both the player stuck in the higher division, but also any player who plays them thinking that "divisions mean nothing". Every other relevant and large-scale multiplayer competitive game has demotions and that has not effected their player base.
It's just funny that SC2 has an extremely forgiving and misleading ranked system, while Overwatch has one of the most brutal and unforgiving ones. Great job blizz! well, it could provoke ladder anxiety. for the allmighty gold tier 1 pro, his division is everything. when he sees "oh, i might be 1 or 2 losses away from demotion to tier 2" he could tell himself "nah, i dont wanna play ladder anymore, because i dont want to fall to tier 2." i would also be happy about demotions, but i guess its the only way to avoid such situations. Ladder anxiety shouldn't be an excuse to not make a cohesive system that makes sense. Ladder anxiety is such a silly concept
yeah true. but without such casuals, sc2 wouldnt have a player base and the casual HATES demotions ^^ and blizz dont want them to leave the game cuz of anxiety.
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On July 13 2016 07:14 DalaiiLameR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 06:31 vult wrote:On July 13 2016 06:24 DalaiiLameR wrote:On July 13 2016 05:34 vult wrote:
I'm not sure why the game does not just re-include demotions. If a player's MMR is visible, at least they know where they are and if they are on the cusp of demotion, which I believe would be a motivational tool to play harder to avoid demotion. Players who get lucky and place in divisions higher than their actual skill and being stuck in that division the entire season is demotivating for both the player stuck in the higher division, but also any player who plays them thinking that "divisions mean nothing". Every other relevant and large-scale multiplayer competitive game has demotions and that has not effected their player base.
It's just funny that SC2 has an extremely forgiving and misleading ranked system, while Overwatch has one of the most brutal and unforgiving ones. Great job blizz! well, it could provoke ladder anxiety. for the allmighty gold tier 1 pro, his division is everything. when he sees "oh, i might be 1 or 2 losses away from demotion to tier 2" he could tell himself "nah, i dont wanna play ladder anymore, because i dont want to fall to tier 2." i would also be happy about demotions, but i guess its the only way to avoid such situations. Ladder anxiety shouldn't be an excuse to not make a cohesive system that makes sense. Ladder anxiety is such a silly concept yeah true. but without such casuals, sc2 wouldnt have a player base and the casual HATES demotions ^^ and blizz dont want them to leave the game cuz of anxiety.
thats what Unranked is for :p
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On July 02 2016 02:27 Xialos wrote:That's pretty nice, I have not played sc2 for 2 years but this change makes me want to buy legacy of the void and play again. That 2010 feeling 
Agreed. Finally bought LotV this morning just to vote for a sensible ladder with my wallet.
Get hype for non-stupid UX!
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MMR seems quite buggy to me. When I want to see it on my ladder profile it says 16
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I can honestly say I really like it, good job Blizzard
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On July 13 2016 07:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:MMR seems quite buggy to me. When I want to see it on my ladder profile it says 16
how many games have you played? and how many of them have you won?
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United States12257 Posts
On July 13 2016 07:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:MMR seems quite buggy to me. When I want to see it on my ladder profile it says 16
It is (as you can see in my second screenshot with "-7 MMR"). I didn't try relogging but that might fix it. It definitely fixes itself after that profile gets updated with another game.
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MMR appears to be all over the place. People in the same division can have MMR as varied as 3000, 100, -10. People with a very small number of games seem to have anomalously low MMR. Is there a bug?
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Separate MMR for each race? I remember them talking about this, and I really want to off race on ladder, definitely looking forward to it.
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United States12257 Posts
On July 13 2016 14:12 paralleluniverse wrote:
MMR appears to be all over the place. People in the same division can have MMR as varied as 3000, 100, -10. People with a very small number of games seem to have anomalously low MMR. Is there a bug?
It's a display bug that fixes itself when that profile plays another game.
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On July 13 2016 14:58 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 14:12 paralleluniverse wrote:
MMR appears to be all over the place. People in the same division can have MMR as varied as 3000, 100, -10. People with a very small number of games seem to have anomalously low MMR. Is there a bug? It's a display bug that fixes itself when that profile plays another game.
So it is a bug.
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United States12257 Posts
League MMR Floor (NA) Rating Range
GM Dynamic N/A
M1 5032 N/A
M2 4834 198
M3 4640 194
D1 4373 267
D2 4106 267
D3 3840 266
P1 3720 120
P2 3600 120
P3 3480 120
G1 3373 107
G2 3266 107
G3 3160 106
S1 2973 187
S2 2786 187
S3 2600 186
B1
B2
B3 0
Reddit is crowdsourcing the MMR ranges for each league on each server (I'm also adding this info to Liquipedia as it gets filled out): https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4siu6j/figuring_out_the_mmr_ranges/
Interestingly, assuming a normal distribution, the median of the curve is slightly to the left of the Gold/Plat boundary, and despite Plat and Gold being 23%, Plat's rating range is 40 more than Gold. You would think Silver and Diamond would theoretically also be equidistant from the origin, yet Diamond's rating range is 240 more than Silver.
I assume we have enough data here to extrapolate the remaining Bronze X-coordinates AND identify the population breakdown of each tier (they're not equal), but I'm not familiar enough with cumulative distribution functions to be able to solve them.
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So, according to the reddit link this means that the ranges overlap by one point, i.e. the end of B1 is 2600 and the start of S3is also 2600? Or are the reddit guys just sloppy?
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Let's be real. This "Ladder Revamp" just scrapes past the bare minimum. But thankfully, it does pass. Not really a revamp, it is merely 3 changes: 1. displaying MMR, 2. splitting leagues into 3, 3. GM updates daily.
From a design point of view, it makes little sense. It looks like a system designed by committee in a fight over keeping the old progression system and skill-based ranking. Just look at the score screen. The whole system is obsessed with meaningless division ranks—it's everywhere—yet the points that determine division rank are nowhere to be found on this screen, instead MMR and a MMR bar is prominently displayed. Once you're off this screen, the MMR bar cannot be viewed and MMR is only found at the bottom corner of the division page, tucked far away, and division points again become prominent. What's with the contradictory emphasis?
What's an ordinary player not following the details of ladder design that have been scattered across the internet suppose to make of this? The score screen shows MMR, so that's what I should care about. But the division page shows points and ranks using points, so I should care about that instead? Even the Match History shows the change in points not MMR. And what has this MMR thing got to do with skill? It's called the "matchmaking rating" not the "skill rating"!
Objectively, it is a great mess.
For a person that knows MMR is skill, the next step is compiling MMR boundaries and the MMR distribution so that MMR can be interpreted as a percentile. This should have just been shown.
As for GM and Contender, they are correctly ranked by MMR, but no other league is. And we can again confirm that the 5PM to 8PM demotion/promotion window is, at best, pointless, because we publicly know at all times where everyone on GM and Contender stands, regardless of the 5PM demotion, and at worst, harmful to accuracy, if it turns out that more than 10 demotions/promotions are needed to make GM the top 200. Instead of very simply taking the top 200 active players ranked by MMR at 8PM and putting them in GM, this is yet another example of the strange contrivance that is everywhere in this ladder system.
It is extremely unlikely that any of these problems will ever change as it would require re-doing most of the UI, and these 3 changes that constitute the "revamp" has already taken a year. At best, the most that can be hoped for is displaying more information: displaying MMR percentile and having a ranking by MMR for everyone instead of having to rely on third parties for this information.
Finally, there's no reason why seasons can't be shorter. Given that Contender is up on day 1 and returning players only need to play 1 placement match, a 1 month or 4 week season is perfectly fine, and it's a good way of flushing inactive players off the ladder.
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United States12257 Posts
On July 13 2016 16:23 Mendelfist wrote:
So, according to the reddit link this means that the ranges overlap by one point, i.e. the end of B1 is 2600 and the start of S3is also 2600? Or are the reddit guys just sloppy?
The values actually go into the decimals, they're just truncated in the client. There's probably not a single round value in the bunch =)
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On July 13 2016 16:29 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 16:23 Mendelfist wrote:
So, according to the reddit link this means that the ranges overlap by one point, i.e. the end of B1 is 2600 and the start of S3is also 2600? Or are the reddit guys just sloppy? The values actually go into the decimals, they're just truncated in the client. There's probably not a single round value in the bunch =)
... How did you know that? :-)
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United States12257 Posts
On July 13 2016 16:31 Mendelfist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2016 16:29 Excalibur_Z wrote:On July 13 2016 16:23 Mendelfist wrote:
So, according to the reddit link this means that the ranges overlap by one point, i.e. the end of B1 is 2600 and the start of S3is also 2600? Or are the reddit guys just sloppy? The values actually go into the decimals, they're just truncated in the client. There's probably not a single round value in the bunch =) ... How did you know that? :-)
Someone long ago told me something back when we were trying to figure out league and division tier offsets and I rolled my eyes and laughed at the reality.
Like how the Master offset from one season was 125.55. Or how the GM offset from that same season was 463.8375. Come on... really?? I really wish I was making this up.
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EPT
