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On March 03 2016 02:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
sOs 7 ???
More controversial than Nerchio #1 in the PR. I need to seriously read the article but the mere idea of a guy who won 3 100k stacked tourneys being only #7 just looks ridiculous to me.
OK I read the part about sOs and the justifications are interesting, it actually really makes sense, sOs indeed had really bad times when he couldn't get good performances. Still, this ability to give it all when it matters the most is what makes a true champion, and when it happens two times (3 if you count IEM) it's not just bracket luck. sOs deserved FAR better imo (#1 or #2) but that's always subjective.
Thanks for those articles btw, always amazing to look back at those wonderful HotS years.
It's the greatest of Heart of the Swarm, so don't think of it as ranking the player with the absolute best skill, think of it as ranking the player who was most consistently dominating over that period of time. $O$ has undeniable skill, and might have the best skill out of anyone, but he didn't turn it on as consistently as the others.
Consistency matters.
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On March 03 2016 04:15 phantomfive wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 02:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
sOs 7 ???
More controversial than Nerchio #1 in the PR. I need to seriously read the article but the mere idea of a guy who won 3 100k stacked tourneys being only #7 just looks ridiculous to me.
OK I read the part about sOs and the justifications are interesting, it actually really makes sense, sOs indeed had really bad times when he couldn't get good performances. Still, this ability to give it all when it matters the most is what makes a true champion, and when it happens two times (3 if you count IEM) it's not just bracket luck. sOs deserved FAR better imo (#1 or #2) but that's always subjective.
Thanks for those articles btw, always amazing to look back at those wonderful HotS years. It's the greatest of Heart of the Swarm, so don't think of it as ranking the player with the absolute best skill, think of it as ranking the player who was most consistently dominating over that period of time. $O$ has undeniable skill, and might have the best skill out of anyone, but he didn't turn it on as consistently as the others. Consistency matters. Life is probably the most inconsistne player of all time. If sOs is #7 because of his inconsistency, Life should be #8-9 or maybe 6. not top 5 lol
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On March 03 2016 04:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:11 swissman777 wrote:On March 03 2016 03:25 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:18 Ensiferum8 wrote:
I wish I had more than 2 hands to facepalm. sOs 7# ? really?!
No amount of justification can justify that ranking. He was superior to Life, Taeja, Maru, Zest. Only Inno was better than him.
Lost a lot of respect for stuchiu and his ranking. Will not read the other ones as they might just be even more of a joke. Life got to 2 Blizzcon finals and won a bunch more tournaments than sOs, including having better results in Korea. So I'm intrigued as to how sOs is better than Life but INnoVation is better than sOs. Life won one more premier tournament than sos in hots. yeah, but sOs tournaments wins are more impressive. + Life is garbage in PL, while sOs was a god.
I think he might have completely ommitted team leagues from this ranking, because it's not mentioned for any of the top performers listed so far. Not for herO, who got the award for most wins twice, not for sOs, not for Maru. He might list it for INnoVation because INno's team league performances are batshit crazy, but beyond that, not sure.
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Norway10161 Posts
On March 03 2016 03:04 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. No one remembers Sync. Everyone remembers Yellow.
Sparks/Fireworks Terran I was cheering for the zerg. (HOT, wasnt it?)
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Norway10161 Posts
The coolest part of this list for me is how many absolutely amazing players hots gave us. To add, its a pleasure seeing sOs and Maru, two guys with unique playstyles, so high.
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On March 03 2016 04:18 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:13 Ensiferum8 wrote:On March 03 2016 04:11 swissman777 wrote:On March 03 2016 03:25 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:18 Ensiferum8 wrote:
I wish I had more than 2 hands to facepalm. sOs 7# ? really?!
No amount of justification can justify that ranking. He was superior to Life, Taeja, Maru, Zest. Only Inno was better than him.
Lost a lot of respect for stuchiu and his ranking. Will not read the other ones as they might just be even more of a joke. Life got to 2 Blizzcon finals and won a bunch more tournaments than sOs, including having better results in Korea. So I'm intrigued as to how sOs is better than Life but INnoVation is better than sOs. Life won one more premier tournament than sos in hots. yeah, but sOs tournaments wins are more impressive. + Life is garbage in PL, while sOs was a god. I think he might have completely ommitted team leagues from this ranking, because it's not mentioned for any of the top performers listed so far. Not for herO, who got the award for most wins twice, not for sOs, not for Maru. He might list it for INnoVation because INno's team league performances are batshit crazy, but beyond that, not sure. that might be possible, you are right. But that would be a huge mistake, since PL is as important for the scene as GSL (probably more).
Just look at Flash's parent after he won vs Parting in PL final, they were crying and the stadium was on fire.
On top of that, PL brings a completly different set of skills from players. And seeing sOs performing so well in both is insanely impressive, and was the big reason why IMO (and in a lot of people opinions) sOs and Innovation should be #1 and 2 (dont know which one is #1 though) while Life should be #3, etc....
Both ways, stuchiu made a huge mistake.
If he didnt take PL into account, thats completly wrong since PL is HUGE.
If he take it into account, well theres no way sOs is not above Life, or at least top #3 on the list
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On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane.
Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages
Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9
That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons.
I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that.
Edit: Polt is too high as well. I strongly disagree with the international bias of this ranking. There's no way Polt is ahead of PartinG, there just isn't, and thats coming from someone who got a stiffy watching Polt wreck Rain and Classic when everyone else (except Maru of course) would have thrown in the towel.
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On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that.
You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit.
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On March 03 2016 04:38 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that. You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit. once again, thats not true all the time. Life playing vs Lilbow was defenitly easier than a GSL round of 32. Even players like hyun, san, MMA, polt, MC etc.. are all way weaker than GSL round of 8. I think both are almsot as important.
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On March 03 2016 04:40 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:38 Roadog wrote:On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that. You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit. once again, thats not true all the time. Life playing vs Lilbow was defenitly easier than a GSL round of 32. Even players like hyun, san, MMA, polt, MC etc.. are all way weaker than GSL round of 8. I think both are almsot as important.
Very much this. Not trying to take anything away from Blizzcon but that was a silly argument. Pigbaby won a WCS NA. That shows you how weak those fields were.
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On March 03 2016 04:38 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that. You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit.
Lilbow? Stardust? Duckdeok? Jjakji? Fantasy? HyuN? These were some of your "greatest players of the year" in HOTS.
Fantasy, a classic "borderline code S" Terran, is HARDER to beat in a code S because getting into Code S means you've recently beaten strong Koreans. By the time these guys show up at Blizzcon at the end of the year, many of them look like they barely know what SC2 is, because they peaked six months ago and then fell off.
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Mute City2363 Posts
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp
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On March 03 2016 04:40 Ensiferum8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:38 Roadog wrote:On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that. You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit. once again, thats not true all the time. Life playing vs Lilbow was defenitly easier than a GSL round of 32. Even players like hyun, san, MMA, polt, MC etc.. are all way weaker than GSL round of 8. I think both are almsot as important.
I was just talking about the Ro32s in GSL. I never said anything about its Ro8. Most of the time you won't play against more than 4 Ro8-grade players anyway.
On March 03 2016 04:44 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:38 Roadog wrote:On March 03 2016 04:32 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 03:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 03:14 Elentos wrote:On March 03 2016 03:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 02:50 Silvana wrote:
Good job! I think I would switch Maru and sOs but I agree on the rest.
Maybe sOs is a little bit low at #7, but I personally wouldn't put him above #5. Suggesting he is #1 or #2 looks wrong to me because it would be too much focus on one single aspect (winning the big things). Hmmm I can understand that stance but we'll probably get soO, who never won a huge tournament in HotS, in the top 5. I think sOs should be above soO no matter how astonishingly consistent this guy has been. You remember a 4 time finalist of course, but for me that's not enough to counteract even 1 Blizzcon. Even though making four consecutive GSL finals is much harder. I guess it's extremely subjective, but I'll always value the guy who wins when it matters the most, especially when he does that TWO times. I don't know if making 4 GSL finals is actually much harder than winning 2 Blizzcons, both achievements are totally insane. Blizzcon is ro16, GSL is ro32 with group stages Blizzcon is 4 series to win, GSL is 7-9 That's right. One single code S is worth more than two Blizzcons. I like sOs at 7, but Maru is too low. Double royal roader in Korean leagues, most consistent player in Korean leagues by far, amazing in Proleague... Taeja's billion irrelevant premiers have nothing on that. You can't really compare Bo3s against potentially borderline Code S-level players who fluked in through a lucky Code A draw to Bo5s against the greatest 16 players of the year across the WCS circuit. Fantasy, a classic "borderline code S" Terran, is HARDER to beat in a code S because getting into Code S means you've recently beaten strong Koreans. By the time these guys show up at Blizzcon at the end of the year, many of them look like they barely know what SC2 is, because they peaked six months ago and then fell off.
Fantasy wasn't really the kind of guy I'm talking about. I mean more like the Sleeps, Hurricanes and RagnaroKs, the guys who fluked in once and barely deserved to be there.
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On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp
You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it?
How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career?
Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format.
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The Taeja bias is real (no surprise given that he was #3 on the GOAT list).
While the exact order isn't as important, excluding sOs and Maru from the top five is a disgrace.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On March 03 2016 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it? How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career? Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format.
Look, I'm far from a TaeJa fan, but it's just lazy to continue to accuse him of having free tournaments.
Yes, he certainly had a few, but to just claim that the majority were easy is silly.
This is an edited list of his HotS weekender runs showing the top class players he beat
DH Bucharest '13: 2-1 Symbol, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 Life, 3-0 INnoVation
HSC 8: 2-1 Scarlett, 3-0 HerO, 3-2 Symbol, 4-0 HyuN
WCS '13 S2 Finals: 2-1 INno, 2-0 duckdeok, 3-0 Rain
DHW '13: 2-1 INno, 2-1 sOs, 2-1 ForGG, 2-1 HerO, 2-1 MMA, 2-0 Life, 4-2 Life
IEM WC '14: 3-2 StarDust, 3-1 Life
DH Summer '14: 2-0 Jaedong, 3-0 HerO
IEM IX Shenzhen: 2-0 MMA, 2-1 Life, 3-0 Zest, 3-1 Jaedong, 4-3 Solar
IEM IX Toronto: 2-1 Zest. 3-1 viOLet
BlizzCon '14: 3-1 soO, 3-1 INno
DHW '14: 3-0 HerO, 3-0 San, 3-2 Polt, 3-0 jjakji
Some were obviously just weak tournaments, but others were quite clearly up against some of the best in the world (DH Bucharest / Winter in 2013 stand out in particular, as does IEM Shenzhen)
I don't know why I always get roped in despite not even liking him as a player, but it's a fallacy to reduce his career to 'shitty foreign events lol'
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I strongly agree that ProLeague results should be factored into this. For me it's the most important tournament. GSL is nice for individual skill, but being able to prove your worth for a team week in week out is what gets the great players into the great teams, and it's the training their that helps them do well in individual leagues. Rain winning a GSL whilst on myInsanity was a tremendous feat baring in mind he was competing against many players from the KeSpa teams.
I also agree that winning Blizzcon in the premier tournament for individual leagues. Even though GSL is arguably harder if you happen to qualify for both.
I am a Terran fan at heart and TaeJa would be one of my favourite players in Starcraft 2 but i couldn't justify saying he was better than the Korean based players who smash proleague and GSL's, SSL's on a regular basis.
Also having your face on a plane must count for something right???
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On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp but Life is awfull in PL where Maru is great in PL and starleague. I would not say Life is better than that.
On top of that, if Maru/zest etc... played way more IEM / Dh, they would have way better results than Life
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I cant believe SOS is 7th, he won 2 blizzcons, twice he won the biggest tournament represented by the best players over a calendar year. Even if he hadnt won a single other tournament, which is highly unlikley since you have perform well to get to blizzcon in the first place, but even if he hadnt, he should still be easily top 3 of the HOTS era. Thats why official lists like this need to include a panel of experts, not just one guy, cause one guy can always get it wrong.
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On March 03 2016 05:10 Orr wrote:
While the exact order isn't as important, excluding sOs and Maru from the top five is a disgrace.
Honestly I think for the top 6-7 players of HotS the order is in a large part down to personal preference and at the end of the day the world doesn't change because somebody thinks sOs is only the #7 player instead of the #3 or w/e. I'd have him higher than 7 but I can see stuchiu's argument, and since he has the courage to write his opinions into articles that can be ridiculed for years to come, I'm not gonna shit on him.
On March 03 2016 05:18 CrayonPopChoa wrote:
Thats why official lists like this need to include a panel of experts, not just one guy, cause one guy can always get it wrong.
The only thing that's official about this is that it's officially stuchiu's personal opinion.
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EPT
