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sOs' bags of money are drowning out the utterly absurd ranking you gave him. The fact that you felt the need to devote half your post on him to defending why he shouldn't have a higher rank should say it all, but in case it doesn't, let's just clarify how weak the argument of consistency is in this context.
A "lack of consistency" over the course of a 3 year period and countless tournaments could be pretty simply explained by a tactical decision to concentrate your attention to specific periods of time. I'm not saying this IS the reason for him not staying consistent over this period of time, but it could be. We could then say that this type of thinking didn't pay off if it didn't result in big tournament wins, but it did - sOs won when it mattered. Again, I'm not definitively saying that this is what happened, but it is a reason that we can't weight consistency so heavily in a ranking system like this. Big tournament wins should matter way, way more.
But the consistency argument against sOs sort of falls flat on its face when you consider Proleague, which isn't mentioned at all? Really? sOs was unequivocally the most consistently dominant player in Proleague over the course of HOTS. Only Innovation had a higher win rate and didn't play for one season. sOs had the MOST WINS and played all 3 seasons.
Though I express strong disagreement with this particular choice I still enjoyed reading the article and look forward to the final segment(s). Keep making this content!
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On March 03 2016 05:19 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:10 Orr wrote:
While the exact order isn't as important, excluding sOs and Maru from the top five is a disgrace.
Honestly I think for the top 6-7 players of HotS the order is in a large part down to personal preference and at the end of the day the world doesn't change because somebody thinks sOs is only the #7 player instead of the #3 or w/e. I'd have him higher than 7 but I can see stuchiu's argument, and since he has the courage to write his opinions into articles that can be ridiculed for years to come, I'm not gonna shit on him. Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:18 CrayonPopChoa wrote:
Thats why official lists like this need to include a panel of experts, not just one guy, cause one guy can always get it wrong. The only thing that's official about this is that it's officially stuchiu's personal opinion. Ive never seen soo many people disagreeing with the OP in teamliquid like right now in this thread. Theres without a doubt a good reason for it.
Its 1 thing to do a list and be a bit bias with your personnal opinion. But putting sOs #7 is more than just an ''opinion''. Its straight up a huge mistake. Thats like if stuchiu put MaximusBlack #3 in greatest foreigner of all time. Its just wrong.
Personal opnion that people would not mind is like putting polt above classic. Some people might argue that Classic was just better, won in harder tournament, but thats no big deal.
Putting a guy like sOs #7, where the vast majority of hardcore, casual, players etc... would have put him at least top #3 is not just personal opinion, its a mistake, a big one (in terms of ranking of course).
Thats like saying that in your personal opinion, Fernando Torres is better than Lionel Messi. Thats just wrong.
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55566 Posts
On March 03 2016 05:23 smoosh wrote:
sOs had the MOST WINS and played all 3 seasons.
You know who's #2 on that list by 3 wins, but not close to top 15 HotS? Flash.
On March 03 2016 05:31 Ensiferum8 wrote:
Thats like saying that in your personal opinion, Fernando Torres is better than Lionel Messi. Thats just wrong.
It's more like saying Nadal > Federer considering all the guys above sOs on the list are also insanely successful. And also play individually.
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The consistency argument is bullshit because you have to play good enough to make it to blizzcon in the first place, and he was playing in the most brutal region, this is why I dont even like putting Polt and Taeja on this list, how many tournaments would they have won if they played in korea? Probably a lot less then they did outside of it. Still to get to the global finals you have to be a top 16 player in a year, the year in between the wins he was 18th, missed it by 2 spots, that was the year , where Bomber and Hyun were 1 and 2 and Polt was 4th in the year end standings, and they all played in the America region, plus jaedong got in as 16th playing in America. Europes region wasnt much better and again it was mostly koreans playing in Europe that got in. Do you think that, if SOS played in either of those regions he wouldnt have made it to blizzcon?? that he wouldnt have won a few more tournaments??? Of course he would have. In fact you take any of the top kroeans, Maru, Life, Hero, Zest you ship em to europe or America and they will do what Polt and MC and others have done. Thats why I dont think winning premier leagues in America, Europe should count as much as doing it in korea, You win 1 GSL in korea should be like winning 3 premier league tournaments in America, maybe 2 in EUrope.
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On March 03 2016 05:31 Ensiferum8 wrote:Ive never seen soo many people disagreeing with the OP in teamliquid like right now in this thread.
You must not have read many articles then, particularly PRs. And this coming from someone who has been on TL only since 2013...
I think the biggest mistake anyone is doing ITT is asserting their priorities ("Blizzcon is GOAT of tournaments", "PL should be more important", "consistency is bullshit") as objective or as "what the majority here think". Stuchiu gave his explanation on what his priorities are and made the list according to that. You can go and do your own list too, according to your own priorities which will probably be different. But call the other lists "wrong" makes no sense...
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On March 03 2016 05:10 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it? How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career? Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format. Look, I'm far from a TaeJa fan, but it's just lazy to continue to accuse him of having free tournaments. Yes, he certainly had a few, but to just claim that the majority were easy is silly. This is an edited list of his HotS weekender runs showing the top class players he beat DH Bucharest '13: 2-1 Symbol, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 Life, 3-0 INnoVation HSC 8: 2-1 Scarlett, 3-0 HerO, 3-2 Symbol, 4-0 HyuN WCS '13 S2 Finals: 2-1 INno, 2-0 duckdeok, 3-0 Rain DHW '13: 2-1 INno, 2-1 sOs, 2-1 ForGG, 2-1 HerO, 2-1 MMA, 2-0 Life, 4-2 Life IEM WC '14: 3-2 StarDust, 3-1 Life DH Summer '14: 2-0 Jaedong, 3-0 HerO IEM IX Shenzhen: 2-0 MMA, 2-1 Life, 3-0 Zest, 3-1 Jaedong, 4-3 Solar IEM IX Toronto: 2-1 Zest. 3-1 viOLet BlizzCon '14: 3-1 soO, 3-1 INno DHW '14: 3-0 HerO, 3-0 San, 3-2 Polt, 3-0 jjakji Some were obviously just weak tournaments, but others were quite clearly up against some of the best in the world (DH Bucharest / Winter in 2013 stand out in particular, as does IEM Shenzhen) I don't know why I always get roped in despite not even liking him as a player, but it's a fallacy to reduce his career to 'shitty foreign events lol'
Yeah TaeJa is just in his own tier... What is he doing nowadays btw ? Still playing in KR ?
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New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 03 2016 05:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:10 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 03 2016 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it? How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career? Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format. Look, I'm far from a TaeJa fan, but it's just lazy to continue to accuse him of having free tournaments. Yes, he certainly had a few, but to just claim that the majority were easy is silly. This is an edited list of his HotS weekender runs showing the top class players he beat DH Bucharest '13: 2-1 Symbol, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 Life, 3-0 INnoVation HSC 8: 2-1 Scarlett, 3-0 HerO, 3-2 Symbol, 4-0 HyuN WCS '13 S2 Finals: 2-1 INno, 2-0 duckdeok, 3-0 Rain DHW '13: 2-1 INno, 2-1 sOs, 2-1 ForGG, 2-1 HerO, 2-1 MMA, 2-0 Life, 4-2 Life IEM WC '14: 3-2 StarDust, 3-1 Life DH Summer '14: 2-0 Jaedong, 3-0 HerO IEM IX Shenzhen: 2-0 MMA, 2-1 Life, 3-0 Zest, 3-1 Jaedong, 4-3 Solar IEM IX Toronto: 2-1 Zest. 3-1 viOLet BlizzCon '14: 3-1 soO, 3-1 INno DHW '14: 3-0 HerO, 3-0 San, 3-2 Polt, 3-0 jjakji Some were obviously just weak tournaments, but others were quite clearly up against some of the best in the world (DH Bucharest / Winter in 2013 stand out in particular, as does IEM Shenzhen) I don't know why I always get roped in despite not even liking him as a player, but it's a fallacy to reduce his career to 'shitty foreign events lol' Yeah TaeJa is just in his own tier... What is he doing nowadays btw ? Still playing in KR ?
In Code S atm.
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grumble grumble, I'm definitely salty abuot sOs at 7.
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55566 Posts
On March 03 2016 05:54 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 05:10 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 03 2016 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it? How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career? Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format. Look, I'm far from a TaeJa fan, but it's just lazy to continue to accuse him of having free tournaments. Yes, he certainly had a few, but to just claim that the majority were easy is silly. This is an edited list of his HotS weekender runs showing the top class players he beat DH Bucharest '13: 2-1 Symbol, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 Life, 3-0 INnoVation HSC 8: 2-1 Scarlett, 3-0 HerO, 3-2 Symbol, 4-0 HyuN WCS '13 S2 Finals: 2-1 INno, 2-0 duckdeok, 3-0 Rain DHW '13: 2-1 INno, 2-1 sOs, 2-1 ForGG, 2-1 HerO, 2-1 MMA, 2-0 Life, 4-2 Life IEM WC '14: 3-2 StarDust, 3-1 Life DH Summer '14: 2-0 Jaedong, 3-0 HerO IEM IX Shenzhen: 2-0 MMA, 2-1 Life, 3-0 Zest, 3-1 Jaedong, 4-3 Solar IEM IX Toronto: 2-1 Zest. 3-1 viOLet BlizzCon '14: 3-1 soO, 3-1 INno DHW '14: 3-0 HerO, 3-0 San, 3-2 Polt, 3-0 jjakji Some were obviously just weak tournaments, but others were quite clearly up against some of the best in the world (DH Bucharest / Winter in 2013 stand out in particular, as does IEM Shenzhen) I don't know why I always get roped in despite not even liking him as a player, but it's a fallacy to reduce his career to 'shitty foreign events lol' Yeah TaeJa is just in his own tier... What is he doing nowadays btw ? Still playing in KR ? In Code S atm.
In the Ro16 of Code S, to be exact.
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On March 03 2016 05:54 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On March 03 2016 05:10 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On March 03 2016 04:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 03 2016 04:45 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Can we stop comparing weekenders to starleagues for once? sOs, soO and TaeJa have never won a starleague. NesTea and Maru have never won a weekender. Can't we just accept that they're different disciplines requiring different skillsets? Only the very best have ever been truly great at both i.e. basically just Life and Mvp You would be completely right if weekend tournaments and starleagues featured identical rosters, but that isn't exactly the case, is it? How many freebie Ro32 and ro16s did Taeja have over his career? Maru isn't in Code S right now because he met Zest IN CODE A. That's the real difference. Not the tournament format. Look, I'm far from a TaeJa fan, but it's just lazy to continue to accuse him of having free tournaments. Yes, he certainly had a few, but to just claim that the majority were easy is silly. This is an edited list of his HotS weekender runs showing the top class players he beat DH Bucharest '13: 2-1 Symbol, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 Life, 3-0 INnoVation HSC 8: 2-1 Scarlett, 3-0 HerO, 3-2 Symbol, 4-0 HyuN WCS '13 S2 Finals: 2-1 INno, 2-0 duckdeok, 3-0 Rain DHW '13: 2-1 INno, 2-1 sOs, 2-1 ForGG, 2-1 HerO, 2-1 MMA, 2-0 Life, 4-2 Life IEM WC '14: 3-2 StarDust, 3-1 Life DH Summer '14: 2-0 Jaedong, 3-0 HerO IEM IX Shenzhen: 2-0 MMA, 2-1 Life, 3-0 Zest, 3-1 Jaedong, 4-3 Solar IEM IX Toronto: 2-1 Zest. 3-1 viOLet BlizzCon '14: 3-1 soO, 3-1 INno DHW '14: 3-0 HerO, 3-0 San, 3-2 Polt, 3-0 jjakji Some were obviously just weak tournaments, but others were quite clearly up against some of the best in the world (DH Bucharest / Winter in 2013 stand out in particular, as does IEM Shenzhen) I don't know why I always get roped in despite not even liking him as a player, but it's a fallacy to reduce his career to 'shitty foreign events lol' Yeah TaeJa is just in his own tier... What is he doing nowadays btw ? Still playing in KR ? In Code S atm.
Oh yeah lol how could I forget that group A... Guess all those memories are beginning to mix up in my mind 
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SoS #7...? Uhm what?
If you win three of the most stacked tournaments in that time, isn't the winner the best player? Why aren't you counting Go4sc2, there are pretty consistent players there too you know? How do you even define consistency, winning those 3 tournaments was pretty damn consistent wasn't it? And why isn't herO 1# then??
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Swap herO and Rain.
Also think sOs is a bit low. Inconsistencies or not, when it comes time to win the money he's one of the scariest players of all-time. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he's the most innovative HotS protoss as well. That's got to count for something. This is even if we don't factor in SPL, major, or online tournaments.
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On March 03 2016 05:58 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Swap herO and Rain.
Also think sOs is a bit low. Inconsistencies or not, when it comes time to win the money he's one of the scariest players of all-time. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he's the most innovative HotS protoss as well. That's got to count for something. This is even if we don't factor in SPL, major, or online tournaments.
yeah he pretty much invented void ray chargelot storm in PvZ for instance
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On March 03 2016 06:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:58 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Swap herO and Rain.
Also think sOs is a bit low. Inconsistencies or not, when it comes time to win the money he's one of the scariest players of all-time. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure he's the most innovative HotS protoss as well. That's got to count for something. This is even if we don't factor in SPL, major, or online tournaments. yeah he pretty much invented void ray chargelot storm in PvZ for instance
Also, he inspired the masses by cannon rushing in the blizzcon finals. That did a lot (in my mind, if only there lol) to legitimize it a bit.
Plus that tempest rush last blizzcon. (Pigbaby also had a good tempest rush in a big finals, but this was at the most prestigious tournament of the year).
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Inno, Life & Taeja have to be top 3.
Taeja for #1.
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sOs doesn't care that he's 7th, he won the most money in HotS by a 5-digit margin and is currently swimming in a pool of it. And not to mention Jin Air probably spent less money sending him to a few big tourneys than Liquid did sending Taeja to every single little one.
In terms of raw skill Taeja is likely the greatest player ever, but people always overstate his results. You can really only compare him to HerO and Jaedong, no other player had a team that would send them to every single event.
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Ah by the way, can someone explain the news post image? I don't get it
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Maybe the image is there to provoke the same reaction than the ranking itself... "I don't get it" 
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On March 03 2016 06:49 Incognoto wrote:
Ah by the way, can someone explain the news post image? I don't get it
I just assumed they were illustrations of Stuchiu in different moods >_>
If not, I don't know who the fuck that is, lol.
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sos on #7 ? you must be joking
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EPT
