EPTOn March 12 2016 02:04 Charoisaur wrote:
BTW there is absolutely NO reason to put Polt in the top 15 and TaeJa not.
BTW there is absolutely NO reason to put Polt in the top 15 and TaeJa not.
Hey team liquid! Real top 14 right here.
Greatest HotS Players of All Time: Part 2 - Page 11
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Chant1
37 Posts
Hey team liquid! Real top 14 right here. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 12 2016 10:58 Phredxor wrote: If you don't think he was consistent during 2014 then I don't know what to say to you  You poor soul.If you think HotS began and ended in 2014 then I don't know what to say to you  | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 05 2016 16:53 Lil_nooblet wrote: The run sOs had from MSI to Blizzcon is nothing compared to Life's run from Blizzcon all the way up to his gsl win. Life won Blizzcon, came in 2nd at Dreamhack Winter, won iem Taipei, got to the ro4 in ssl and barely didn't make the final, and won gsl. Life's run was much more dominant and it isn't even close. For individual league achievements in HOTS, it's pretty clear that Life is #1. But for many of us fans (as well as the actual players), Proleague role/results are weighted equally (if not more for them) in importance. And have to be an important component in the totality of measuring the best of the best. And when top level opponents have been able to prepare for a single map against Life on a weekly basis in the highest level team league format, he has more often than not looked decidedly average. Which is in stark contrast to the other six names in my S class tier. While in addition to largely having much more important roles (many of them being the ace players for top teams), all have consistently great win rates every round and season, and probably most impressively, generally make their world class competition appear outclassed on a weekly basis (in addition to all their individual league success). As I wrote earlier in Part 1 of the PR regarding Life (have him at #3 overall in my personal rankings), <Life: the weakest PL player of my S class tier. Obviously his improvisational/adaptable play-style much better suited to the BO individual tournament format. Served as the ace player for Startale and carried a weak team to the R1 playoffs last season on multiple ace match wins. But largely disappointed upon joining KT mid round (when many assumed he would make them unbeatable), and by season ending playoff time, wasn't even in their core starting four. While having occasional PL success here and there, Life has never looked dominant/unbeatable on a weekly basis in the most challenging team league (against absolute top tier competition who study you and with coaching, craft a specific game-plan to snipe you on a single map), unlike the other six names on my list frequently have.> | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 11 2016 08:21 BlackZetsu wrote: The real list should be: 1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear - I can't believe Dear didn't make the list. What an insult! I'm a huge Dear fan. And seeing him rise back up to power again is magnificent. But he simply didn't have anywhere near the achievements/longevity to be on any logical top ten HOTS list. Not even close. Never read the Artosis ESPN writings you allude to that apparently has contorted our bias towards Zest and others. I prefer to watch the actual games and make my own conclusions (along w/ factual research to help understand the bigger picture). You asked earlier what else anyone did other than Korean individual leagues. There's something called Proleague, which is even bigger and more important. Maru and herO were dominant ace players for constant playoff teams. Zest (and I'm not a fan of his, despite your sweeping generalizations) was the unquestioned ace player for the KT juggernaut (2014 PL champions). You're also much higher on Classic than almost anyone else here that I've seen (even the many like myself who felt Classic was ranked too low at #11). And your fixation w/ basing everything solely on Korean individual leagues is pretty odd and shows a clear lack of depth to your context (and I'm someone who is usually arguing that Korean leagues should be weighted much more heavily than the big foreign tournaments!). | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 11 2016 08:09 BlackZetsu wrote: It was a joke (with a lot of truth behind it). I already said sOs and Life are Top 5 Not sure what you mean by first making a statement, then claiming it was a joke, but w/ the caveat that there is a lot of truth to it (which would make your initial claim a humorous fact). I feel I can safely say w/ a strong degree of certainty, that no one here (other than you) put any weight into the physical appearance of anyone when trying to weight their merits. | ||
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oSoSexyWhiteBoy
Germany2 Posts
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 14 2016 17:51 Orr wrote: I'm a huge Dear fan. And seeing him rise back up to power again is magnificent. But he simply didn't have anywhere near the achievements/longevity to be on any logical top ten HOTS list. Not even close. Never read the Artosis ESPN writings you allude to that apparently has contorted our bias towards Zest and others. I prefer to watch the actual games and make my own conclusions (along w/ factual research to help understand the bigger picture). You asked earlier what else anyone did other than Korean individual leagues. There's something called Proleague, which is even bigger and more important. Maru and herO were dominant ace players for constant playoff teams. Zest (and I'm not a fan of his, despite your sweeping generalizations) was the unquestioned ace player for the KT juggernaut (2014 PL champions). You're also much higher on Classic than almost anyone else here that I've seen (even the many like myself who felt Classic was ranked too low at #11). And your fixation w/ basing everything solely on Korean individual leagues is pretty odd and shows a clear lack of depth to your context (and I'm someone who is usually arguing that Korean leagues should be weighted much more heavily than the big foreign tournaments!). I'm not fixated on Korean individual leagues. If I were, I wouldn't have given the #1 spot to sOs, who never won a Korean individual league, nor the #2 spot to Life, who only won one Korean individual league in HotS while Classic, Maru and Innovation each won 2. I simply said that Korean individual league championships and World Championships deserve the most weight, meaning other tournaments should be taken into account too. The question I posed is: Which of the 9 players who won a Korean individual league do not deserve a Top 10 spot, i.e., who accomplished something more impressive than winning a Korean individual league? I suggested that sOs and soO had each done something more impressive than winning a Korean individual league. If you think someone else did too, then by all means tell us who and explain why. Proleague results support my list, with the exception of Life. sOs, Innovation, Maru, herO, Zest and Rain were all monsters in Proleague. Classic was on a crowded SKT team but still had an impressive 65% winrate in 2015 Proleague. Dear had both the achievements and longevity to merit Top 10. He won GSL and WCS Season 3 in 2013, and made it to the Ro4 in GSL in 2015. If you think there are 10 players who deserve it more, please list them and explain why. Classic absolutely deserves a Top 5 placement. He won 2 Korean individual leagues, IEM Shenzhen 2015, and finished in the Top 4 of Blizzcon in back to back years. Putting him at #11 is outrageous and an insult to the game, and shows the horrible fan favorite bias in this community. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 15 2016 12:07 oSoSexyWhiteBoy wrote: People need to realize that 4 tournaments doesn't out weigh tons of mediocre results Name a player who doesn't have "tons of mediocre results." It's the nature of the game that literally every player had seasons where they failed to qualify for a premier individual league, or dropped out of tournaments in the early round. The fact that each of the top players actually has only a handful of Tier 1 tournament wins shows how volatile the game is, and how the rankings have to be decided by just 1 or 2 more championships than the next player on the list. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 13 2016 01:49 BlackZetsu wrote: If you think HotS began and ended in 2014 then I don't know what to say to you We were talking about consistency of Zest vs Classic. My point was Zest was consistently one of if not the best player for most of 2014. Whereas Classic was always up and down. Saying Zest won nothing in 2013 is fine but neither did Classic. And in 2015 Classic got another individual title and Zest got a world championship which you seem to rate highly. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 17 2016 11:59 BlackZetsu wrote: Dear had both the achievements and longevity to merit Top 10. He won GSL and WCS Season 3 in 2013, and made it to the Ro4 in GSL in 2015. If you think there are 10 players who deserve it more, please list them and explain why. Life, Bogus, Zest, sOs, soO, and Maru are all obviously ahead of him. Not even going to explain. Taeja didn't do much in Korea for HotS, but won numerous foreign tournaments of lesser weight and faced top-tier competition on many occasions. The same can be said of Polt to a lesser extent, but still enough to easily beat Dear. herO might be the best player of 2015, Rain had good results throughout HotS. Both are starleague champs with better resumes. Soulkey is GSL champ (who had a very tough road) with way more consistency. His 2015 sucked but so did Dear's 2014. Classic...well you already said it. PartinG has numerous premiere results and was 1 game from being a GSL champ (vs Life) and 1 game away from being a GSL WC (vs. Zest). He is by far the most consistent HotS player as well with a ro16+ for every code S season. ByuL I already touched on. Triple starleague finalist, 2 of which simultaneous, SPL star, ro4 Kespa Cup from qualifier, did it all post-SH patch. Bomber made a ro4 in OSL, dominated WCS s2 finals, made a Blizzcon semi, and had several other big wins thereafter. MMA is the same argument as Polt and Taeja. Numerous premiere results of lesser weight. Although he did sneak in a Blizzcon final in 2014, and randomly made a GSL ro4 in 2015. After all that, then Dear can have a spot. Although, I think arguments can be made for Solar. | ||
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ukiya2004
199 Posts
To me, sOs must be at least in top 3 of HOTS. At least! He might not be the best in individual Korean leagues but his results in Proleague, Blizzcons, and his win in IEM Katowice and Hot6ix cup is by far one of the best, if not the best. for Top 3 I would give it to: 1. Life 2. sOs 3. Innovation | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
Life, Bogus, Zest, sOs, soO, and Maru are all obviously ahead of him. Not even going to explain. Agreed. Taeja didn't do much in Korea for HotS, but won numerous foreign tournaments of lesser weight and faced top-tier competition on many occasions. The same can be said of Polt to a lesser extent, but still enough to easily beat Dear. Disagree. Taeja got spanked badly when he returned to Korea in 2015, whereas Dear did quite well. Consider Dear’s 2015 performance in Korea: SSL 2015 Season 1: Top 8 GSL 2015 Season 1: Code S Ro32 SSL 2015 Season 2: Top 16 GSL 2015 Season 3: Top 4 SSL 2015 Season 3: Top 16 Polt never even played in Korea HotS. When he had to face the best Koreans each year at Blizzcon, he only made it past the Ro16 once, in 2013. herO might be the best player of 2015, Rain had good results throughout HotS. Both are starleague champs with better resumes. Agreed. Soulkey is GSL champ (who had a very tough road) with way more consistency. His 2015 sucked but so did Dear's 2014 Dear is also a GSL champ. They both went head to head at the end of their best year (2013) in WCS Season 3 finals … and Dear came out on top. Soulkey had a better 2014 but never made it past the Ro8. Dear had a much better 2015. Soulkey and Dear are neck and neck for the 10th spot, but you have to give the edge to Dear since he won a championship head to head and endured (did quite well) through the entire life of the game. Classic...well you already said it. Agreed. PartinG has numerous premiere results and was 1 game from being a GSL champ (vs Life) and 1 game away from being a GSL WC (vs. Zest). He is by far the most consistent HotS player as well with a ro16+ for every code S season. Parting never won a HotS tournament in Korea. He failed to qualify for SSL 2015 Seasons 1 and 3. In any event, consistently making the Top 16 makes you about … a Top 16 player. That’s it. ByuL I already touched on. Triple starleague finalist, 2 of which simultaneous, SPL star, ro4 Kespa Cup from qualifier, did it all post-SH patch. Very impressive, but he never won a championship. Dear won 2 championships, and was also impressive through the end of HotS. Bomber made a ro4 in OSL, dominated WCS s2 finals, made a Blizzcon semi, and had several other big wins thereafter. Kind of impressive, but not compared to Dear’s Korean results. MMA is the same argument as Polt and Taeja. Numerous premiere results of lesser weight. Although he did sneak in a Blizzcon final in 2014, and randomly made a GSL ro4 in 2015. Impressive, but not compared to Dear. After all that, then Dear can have a spot. Although, I think arguments can be made for Solar. Well it’s just insulting to suggest that Bomber, MMA and Solar did better than Dear in HotS. The other players you mentioned are worthy of consideration, but this just makes you look like a hater. You should have stopped with Byul. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
On March 17 2016 12:26 Phredxor wrote: We were talking about consistency of Zest vs Classic. My point was Zest was consistently one of if not the best player for most of 2014. Whereas Classic was always up and down. Saying Zest won nothing in 2013 is fine but neither did Classic. And in 2015 Classic got another individual title and Zest got a world championship which you seem to rate highly. It's just silly to label a burst of excellence over a 6 month period during a 3 year game as "consistent." Every player had ups and downs. That's why it really comes down to strength of championships. IEM Katowice should rank below Blizzcon, GSL and SSL. And Zest's path at Katowice was remarkably easy, no one has denied that. Classic had a harder path at IEM Shenzhen. Sorry but trying to diminish the significance of winning 2 Korean individual leagues is silly. Classic is absolutely better than Zest. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3489 Posts
On March 12 2016 01:27 Charoisaur wrote: All lists that got listed thus far are complete bullshit. The only real list is this one: 1. Life 2. TaeJa 3. sOs 4, INnoVation 5. herO 6. Zest 7. soO 8. Maru 9. PartinG 10. Classic Everyone who disagrees with this list is just biased and doesn't want to see the truth because I'm the only human who can accurately rank players and all other so called "rankings" in this thread are made by people who know nothing about the game. That is my exact top 4 as well. I might even agree with plenty more of the list, but with less certainty, as I haven't looked through all of the numbers. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
The real list should be: 1. sOs Lol. Check the guy's aligulac rating. His results never justified top 5. Just benefited from positive variance in a few tournaments where he won as the outsider. | ||
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BlackZetsu
United States179 Posts
Lol. Check the guy's championships. | ||
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