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On March 05 2016 16:53 Lil_nooblet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 15:55 fx9 wrote:On March 04 2016 05:32 Phredxor wrote:On March 04 2016 02:05 Orr wrote:On March 04 2016 01:34 jpoiv wrote:
How are people so salty about sos at #7 slot?
There is no way in a million years i'd put sos over maru, taeja, life, zest, innovation. Yeah he won a lot of money, but compared to sheer impact on the game, the meta, the style of how a race is played, and crucially the beauty of the games they've provided, he doesn't hold a candle to those other guys. Not even close. He wins tournaments, but in terms of the games he has actually left behind in his wake, what the content actually IS, it's totally clear who ranks above him. There's more to this game than simply winning, as much as literalists would like to simplify history, or redefine sc by a singular champion...which would be a rewritting of what starcraft has been over the years.
This is one of the more hilariously odd things I've ever seen listed. If our main criteria is now prettiness of play to judge greatness, then we really are near the end and might as well pack up and GG out. Not sure if you followed BW, but Flash didn't ascend to God tier because his play-style made games beautiful to behold. If the guy who won two of the three biggest tournaments ever, along w/ the richest IEM WC ever, along w/ the most stacked Hot6ix Cup ever, who had multiple top-four GSL finishes along w/ insane PL stats and was co-anchor to one of the winningest teams, who went on perhaps the most dominant stretch ever seen in SC2 between 1st and 2nd rounds of the season ending playoffs last year (defeated Zest on D1. Then reverse all-kill of Flash, TY, Zest, Stats to defeat KT on D2 to eliminate the defending champions. Then against CJ in semis, defeated Byul on D1, and sent JAGW to the grand finals after defeating herO and Byul on D2), and ended the HOTS era by defeating the consensus GOAT at his own game on the biggest stage of all in possibly the closest and most insane BO7 GF ever, if this guy can't hold a candle to the five other names you've listed, I'd very much like to know what you're smoking. I dunno if you can call 4 days perhaps the most dominant stretch ever seen in sc2.. Obviously sOs can hold a candle to everyone above him. He's one of the best players out there and on his day can make anyone look silly. Doesn't mean he deserves to be top 5 though. What? How did you come up the 4days of dominance? sOs has been in beast mode from MSI tournament up until Blizzcon. He absolutely wrecked everybody during that time, not only in individual tournaments but also in team league. Never forget his double all-kill in the Proleagues final. That is as dominant as a player can get in Hots, on par with Life's run at the end of 2014. The run sOs had from MSI to Blizzcon is nothing compared to Life's run from Blizzcon all the way up to his gsl win. Life won Blizzcon, came in 2nd at Dreamhack Winter, won iem Taipei, got to the ro4 in ssl and barely didn't make the final, and won gsl. Life's run was much more dominant and it isn't even close.
Well, did he reverse all kill tho? Life played great on teamleague but it was never on the level of sOs' as well. Obviously sOs' run was not "nothing compared". And we're talking about HoTS in general.
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On March 07 2016 13:53 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 16:53 Lil_nooblet wrote:On March 05 2016 15:55 fx9 wrote:On March 04 2016 05:32 Phredxor wrote:On March 04 2016 02:05 Orr wrote:On March 04 2016 01:34 jpoiv wrote:
How are people so salty about sos at #7 slot?
There is no way in a million years i'd put sos over maru, taeja, life, zest, innovation. Yeah he won a lot of money, but compared to sheer impact on the game, the meta, the style of how a race is played, and crucially the beauty of the games they've provided, he doesn't hold a candle to those other guys. Not even close. He wins tournaments, but in terms of the games he has actually left behind in his wake, what the content actually IS, it's totally clear who ranks above him. There's more to this game than simply winning, as much as literalists would like to simplify history, or redefine sc by a singular champion...which would be a rewritting of what starcraft has been over the years.
This is one of the more hilariously odd things I've ever seen listed. If our main criteria is now prettiness of play to judge greatness, then we really are near the end and might as well pack up and GG out. Not sure if you followed BW, but Flash didn't ascend to God tier because his play-style made games beautiful to behold. If the guy who won two of the three biggest tournaments ever, along w/ the richest IEM WC ever, along w/ the most stacked Hot6ix Cup ever, who had multiple top-four GSL finishes along w/ insane PL stats and was co-anchor to one of the winningest teams, who went on perhaps the most dominant stretch ever seen in SC2 between 1st and 2nd rounds of the season ending playoffs last year (defeated Zest on D1. Then reverse all-kill of Flash, TY, Zest, Stats to defeat KT on D2 to eliminate the defending champions. Then against CJ in semis, defeated Byul on D1, and sent JAGW to the grand finals after defeating herO and Byul on D2), and ended the HOTS era by defeating the consensus GOAT at his own game on the biggest stage of all in possibly the closest and most insane BO7 GF ever, if this guy can't hold a candle to the five other names you've listed, I'd very much like to know what you're smoking. I dunno if you can call 4 days perhaps the most dominant stretch ever seen in sc2.. Obviously sOs can hold a candle to everyone above him. He's one of the best players out there and on his day can make anyone look silly. Doesn't mean he deserves to be top 5 though. What? How did you come up the 4days of dominance? sOs has been in beast mode from MSI tournament up until Blizzcon. He absolutely wrecked everybody during that time, not only in individual tournaments but also in team league. Never forget his double all-kill in the Proleagues final. That is as dominant as a player can get in Hots, on par with Life's run at the end of 2014. The run sOs had from MSI to Blizzcon is nothing compared to Life's run from Blizzcon all the way up to his gsl win. Life won Blizzcon, came in 2nd at Dreamhack Winter, won iem Taipei, got to the ro4 in ssl and barely didn't make the final, and won gsl. Life's run was much more dominant and it isn't even close. Well, did he reverse all kill tho? Life played great on teamleague but it was never on the level of sOs' as well. Obviously sOs' run was not "nothing compared". And we're talking about HoTS in general.
sOs is the only one to do it I believe. And Life isn't great in teamleauges.. he's average.
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On March 03 2016 02:33 digmouse wrote:
Wow sOs only #7? I just got to reading this and I also was surprised.
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On March 05 2016 06:42 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 03:26 Homunculus159 wrote:
Do people actually read the articles or just look at the numbers and instantly start bitching? Do you read people's detailed responses or just look at the number of posts and instantly start bitching?
I read peoples responses. A FEW explained why they think this ranking is wrong and why player x should be higher up or lower in the rankings.
MOST of them though are just: Player x is #y? -> This is Bullshit.
I am not bitching either. I just think it is funny how fast people jump the gun without even reading stuff. I dont agree with all the rankings but the writer explained why HE(!) thinks these players deserve these rankings.
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This list is silly. Ranking Classic 11 is outrageous. Classic is the only player in HOTS to win both GSL and SSL. That alone makes Classic better than every other protoss except for possibly sOs. But Team Liquid caters to fan bias and makes this a pure popularity contest by sticking a Top 2 protoss at #11. Ridiculous.
And ranking Rain ahead of herO? Rain won 1 GSL in HotS. That's it! herO won SSL, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup, and had the most wins in Proleague in back to back seasons.
And sOs, who has won 3 world chamionships, is not even Top 5? But everyone's favorite pretty boy Zest, who won GSL at the height of protoss imbalance and a forgettable IEM Katowice over a nerve-wrecked Trap, obviously makes the Top 5 to satisfy the ridiculous biases of this obtuse fan base.
Peace.
Edit: Rain also won Hot6 Cup 2013 but that's his only other premier win in HotS (he won a Homestory Cup but that is not a premier tourney). The article falsely lists Rain as having won an OSL in 2013 HotS but that was actually a 2012 WoL tournament.
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On March 11 2016 05:05 BlackZetsu wrote:
This list is silly. Ranking Classic 11 is outrageous. Classic is the only player in HOTS to win both GSL and SSL. That alone makes Classic better than every other protoss except for possibly sOs. But Team Liquid caters to fan bias and makes this a pure popularity contest by sticking a Top 2 protoss at #11. Ridiculous.
And ranking Rain ahead of herO? Rain won 1 GSL in HotS. That's it! herO won SSL, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup, and had the most wins in Proleague in back to back seasons.
And sOs, who has won 3 world chamionships, is not even Top 5? But everyone's favorite pretty boy Zest, who won GSL at the height of protoss imbalance and a forgettable IEM Katowice over a nerve-wrecked Trap, obviously makes the Top 5 to satisfy the ridiculous biases of this obtuse fan base.
Peace.
Edit: Rain also won Hot6 Cup 2013 but that's his only other premier win in HotS (he won a Homestory Cup but that is not a premier tourney). The article falsely lists Rain as having won an OSL in 2013 HotS but that was actually a 2012 WoL tournament.
Who cares if Classic won both Korean starleagues? As if that's some added prestige. It's basically two GSLs since they're nearly identical in format and level of competition. Should ByuL somehow be ranked ahead of soO for having made both starleagues finals compared to soO only making 4 consecutive GSL finals? I think not. In addition, Classic won both of those almost a year apart from each other, it might hold more weight if he pulled the feat off simultaneously as ByuL and Life almost did.
Then you diss Zest for abusing Protoss imbalance but not Classic? What? Protoss imba or not, Zest had one of the most dominant years ever in 2014. Not to mention, Zest's bread and butter is PvP anyway. He's way above Classic. Every Protoss above him easily earns their place over him. Rain and herO for having far better consistency, sOs for having bigger wins and the innovative contributions, Zest for being the best. I think there's even an argument for PartinG who had his share of wins/deep runs coupled with ro16+ in the GSL every season.
I do agree herO should be ahead of Rain but not by much. Rain had greater longevity and consistency (pretty damn good SPL record as well despite the heavy competition on SKT) but herO's 2015 was incredible. Also regarding Rain's 2013 OSL from the article:
OSL 2013 - 2nd
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On March 11 2016 06:43 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2016 05:05 BlackZetsu wrote:
This list is silly. Ranking Classic 11 is outrageous. Classic is the only player in HOTS to win both GSL and SSL. That alone makes Classic better than every other protoss except for possibly sOs. But Team Liquid caters to fan bias and makes this a pure popularity contest by sticking a Top 2 protoss at #11. Ridiculous.
And ranking Rain ahead of herO? Rain won 1 GSL in HotS. That's it! herO won SSL, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup, and had the most wins in Proleague in back to back seasons.
And sOs, who has won 3 world chamionships, is not even Top 5? But everyone's favorite pretty boy Zest, who won GSL at the height of protoss imbalance and a forgettable IEM Katowice over a nerve-wrecked Trap, obviously makes the Top 5 to satisfy the ridiculous biases of this obtuse fan base.
Peace.
Edit: Rain also won Hot6 Cup 2013 but that's his only other premier win in HotS (he won a Homestory Cup but that is not a premier tourney). The article falsely lists Rain as having won an OSL in 2013 HotS but that was actually a 2012 WoL tournament. Who cares if Classic won both Korean starleagues? As if that's some added prestige. It's basically two GSLs since they're nearly identical in format and level of competition. Should ByuL somehow be ranked ahead of soO for having made both starleagues finals compared to soO only making 4 consecutive GSL finals? I think not. Then you diss Zest for abusing Protoss imbalance but not Classic? What? Protoss imba or not, Zest had one of the most dominant years ever in 2014. Not to mention, Zest's bread and butter is PvP anyway. He's way above Classic. Every Protoss above him easily earns their place over him. Rain and herO for having far better consistency, sOs for having bigger wins and the innovative contributions, Zest for being the best. I think there's even an argument for PartinG who had his share of wins/deep runs coupled with ro16+ in the GSL every season. I do agree herO should be ahead of Rain but not by much. Rain had greater longevity and consistency (pretty damn good SPL record as well despite the heavy competition on SKT) but herO's 2015 was incredible. Also regarding Rain's 2013 OSL from the article:
Ok, so what other players have won 2 Korean individual leagues in HotS besides Classic? Maru and Innovation. That's it. Sorry but winning one Code S then getting a top 8 and a top 4 is not "dominant." It is "very good" but it is not dominant. The Zest hype among Sc2 fans is absolutely nauseating. He didn't make it out of Code B for 2 seasons in 2015. He's not a Top 5 player.
Classic also made it to top 4 at Blizzcon 2 years in a row. By your standards that's "dominant."
Sheesh.
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On March 11 2016 06:58 BlackZetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2016 06:43 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On March 11 2016 05:05 BlackZetsu wrote:
This list is silly. Ranking Classic 11 is outrageous. Classic is the only player in HOTS to win both GSL and SSL. That alone makes Classic better than every other protoss except for possibly sOs. But Team Liquid caters to fan bias and makes this a pure popularity contest by sticking a Top 2 protoss at #11. Ridiculous.
And ranking Rain ahead of herO? Rain won 1 GSL in HotS. That's it! herO won SSL, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup, and had the most wins in Proleague in back to back seasons.
And sOs, who has won 3 world chamionships, is not even Top 5? But everyone's favorite pretty boy Zest, who won GSL at the height of protoss imbalance and a forgettable IEM Katowice over a nerve-wrecked Trap, obviously makes the Top 5 to satisfy the ridiculous biases of this obtuse fan base.
Peace.
Edit: Rain also won Hot6 Cup 2013 but that's his only other premier win in HotS (he won a Homestory Cup but that is not a premier tourney). The article falsely lists Rain as having won an OSL in 2013 HotS but that was actually a 2012 WoL tournament. Who cares if Classic won both Korean starleagues? As if that's some added prestige. It's basically two GSLs since they're nearly identical in format and level of competition. Should ByuL somehow be ranked ahead of soO for having made both starleagues finals compared to soO only making 4 consecutive GSL finals? I think not. Then you diss Zest for abusing Protoss imbalance but not Classic? What? Protoss imba or not, Zest had one of the most dominant years ever in 2014. Not to mention, Zest's bread and butter is PvP anyway. He's way above Classic. Every Protoss above him easily earns their place over him. Rain and herO for having far better consistency, sOs for having bigger wins and the innovative contributions, Zest for being the best. I think there's even an argument for PartinG who had his share of wins/deep runs coupled with ro16+ in the GSL every season. I do agree herO should be ahead of Rain but not by much. Rain had greater longevity and consistency (pretty damn good SPL record as well despite the heavy competition on SKT) but herO's 2015 was incredible. Also regarding Rain's 2013 OSL from the article: OSL 2013 - 2nd Ok, so what other players have won 2 Korean individual leagues in HotS besides Classic? Maru and Innovation. That's it. Sorry but winning one Code S then getting a top 8 and a top 4 is not "dominant." It is "very good" but it is not dominant. The Zest hype among Sc2 fans is absolutely nauseating. He didn't make it out of Code B for 2 seasons in 2015. He's not a Top 5 player. Classic also made it to top 4 at Blizzcon 2 years in a row. By your standards that's "dominant." Sheesh.
Again, Classic has something to distinguish him apart from everyone in terms of achievement but it's only one factor. It's not nearly enough to cover his other shortcomings when compared to the top 10.
I'm not even a Zest fan, but he deserves his due. Even in 2015 he did good. He missed code S for two seasons but still had a good IEM WC victory, 2 SSL ro8s and a GSL ro8. Btw, Classic was also code B for those two seasons in 2015.
Factoring 2014 in just makes it no contest. Zest didn't just win code S, then go ro8 -> ro4. He won the GSL World Championship, a Kespa cup, came 2nd at a tough IEM and made it to the ro4 in a stacked Hotsix Cup. Hell, Zest was ro8+ in everything except Blizzcon for 2014 (Life is imba).
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Winning a Korean individual league is the most difficult accomplishment in Starcraft. Only 3 players were able to do it twice in Heart of the Swarm. And Classic has prestigious "extras" that fully justify a Top 5 placement:
IEM Shenzhen 2015 Championship over Parting (where he also had to defeat Rain and herO)
2 Top 4 finishes at Blizzcon
Zest won 4 noteworthy tournaments, 3 of which occurred within a relatively tight timeframe from April to September 2014. He was literally nobody before then, and his only other accomplishment is winning IEM Katowice 2015, which is impressive but everyone knows the quality of his opponents at that tourney was weak (weaker than Classic's at IEM Shenzhen).
You also have to factor in that the better player will get better at the game as time goes on. Zest's results indicate that he was pretty much figured out by the end of 2014 (at least in Korea), whereas Classic was still able to win another Tier 1 Korean tournament. For this reason I don't even think Zest should be ranked higher than herO, who got better and better at HotS as the game matured and finished 2015 with an SSL championship.
Again, Zest is obviously a very good player, and he's definitely Top 10. But his championships and consistency are worse than Classic's. And there are easily 5 players who accomplished more than Zest in HotS - Classic, Maru, Innovation, Life and sOs.
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Oh, and I guarantee if you switched faces on Zest and Classic, everyone and their mother would be putting Classic ahead of Zest.
You know I'm right.
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On March 11 2016 07:58 BlackZetsu wrote:
Oh, and I guarantee if you switched faces on Zest and Classic, everyone and their mother would be putting Classic ahead of Zest.
You know I'm right.
In your logic sOs and life must be pretty low in the rankings.
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On March 11 2016 08:06 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2016 07:58 BlackZetsu wrote:
Oh, and I guarantee if you switched faces on Zest and Classic, everyone and their mother would be putting Classic ahead of Zest.
You know I'm right. In your logic sOs and life must be pretty low in the rankings.
It was a joke (with a lot of truth behind it). I already said sOs and Life are Top 5
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Calm down, I do agree that classic is way too low but it's just stuchius personal opinion. You can do your own list if you want.
Also I think Classic, rain, herO and Zest are all damn close in accomplishments so it's not like classic should be far ahead of Zest or zest doesn't deserve his high rank.
Putting classic below Polt is laughable on the other hand...
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The real list should be:
1. sOs
2. Life
3. Innovation
4. Classic
5. Maru
6. herO
7. Zest
8. Rain
9. soO
10. Dear - I can't believe Dear didn't make the list. What an insult!
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your Country52797 Posts
On March 11 2016 08:21 BlackZetsu wrote:
The real list should be:
1. sOs
2. Life
3. Innovation
4. Classic
5. Maru
6. herO
7. Zest
8. Rain
9. soO
10. Dear - I can't believe Dear didn't make the list. What an insult!
- sOs higher than fourth place
- TaeJa not in the ranking
- herO above soO
Are you sure?
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On March 11 2016 08:37 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2016 08:21 BlackZetsu wrote:
The real list should be:
1. sOs
2. Life
3. Innovation
4. Classic
5. Maru
6. herO
7. Zest
8. Rain
9. soO
10. Dear - I can't believe Dear didn't make the list. What an insult! - sOs higher than fourth place
- TaeJa not in the ranking
- herO above soO
Are you sure?
sOs won 3 world championships he is absolutely #1, all the moreso now that the only player who can contend for that honor has been arrested for matchfixing.
Taeja did nothing in Korean starcraft. He had his chance in 2015 and bombed out of Code A.
soO only won 1 tournament in HotS, Kespa Cup in 2015. herO won 5.
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Winning a Korean individual league is the most difficult accomplishment in Starcraft. Only 3 players were able to do it twice in Heart of the Swarm. And Classic has prestigious "extras" that fully justify a Top 5 placement:
IEM Shenzhen 2015 Championship over Parting (where he also had to defeat Rain and herO)
2 Top 4 finishes at Blizzcon
Zest won 4 noteworthy tournaments, 3 of which occurred within a relatively tight timeframe from April to September 2014. He was literally nobody before then, and his only other accomplishment is winning IEM Katowice 2015, which is impressive but everyone knows the quality of his opponents at that tourney was weak (weaker than Classic's at IEM Shenzhen).
Classic was even more of a nobody before 2014. Zest was slightly notable in 2013. Nobody expected him to go god-mode in the coming year but he also was a decent upcoming Protoss that could support Stats and Flash in SPL.
Zest's path wasn't that weak at IEM. He went through Hydra, Bogus, Bbyong and Trap. Not quite as tough as Classic's IEM but at least he played every MU in a bo5+.
You also have to factor in that the better player will get better at the game as time goes on. Zest's results indicate that he was pretty much figured out by the end of 2014 (at least in Korea), whereas Classic was still able to win another Tier 1 Korean tournament. For this reason I don't even think Zest should be ranked higher than herO, who got better and better at HotS as the game matured and finished 2015 with an SSL championship.
Not necessarily. There are many factors that can contribute to players getting worse or better as time goes on such as meta, balance, motivation, and personal issues.
Again, Zest is obviously a very good player, and he's definitely Top 10. But his championships and consistency are worse than Classic's. And there are easily 5 players who accomplished more than Zest in HotS - Classic, Maru, Innovation, Life and sOs.
How is Classic more consistent? Zest has longer and more impressive streaks of relevancy as a top-tier Protoss. Even in longevity he has the edge. I said before Zest was ro8+ in everything except Blizzcon for 2014 (no shame in going 2-3 to a peak Life). That includes 3 GSLs, 2 IEMs, 1 Kespa Cup, a GSL WC, and a Hotsix Cup. Which is just absolutely insane. Only Mvp beats his 2014.
Even looking at the brackets, Zest went through quite a lot of difficult opponents to pull those results too. The one major criticism you can make for Zest is that he's fortunate in avoiding a lot PvT throughout 2014. Not that he was even bad in PvT, just not nearly as godly.
On March 11 2016 08:21 BlackZetsu wrote:
The real list should be:
1. sOs
2. Life
3. Innovation
4. Classic
5. Maru
6. herO
7. Zest
8. Rain
9. soO
10. Dear - I can't believe Dear didn't make the list. What an insult!
I'm not even going to touch the rest of this, but Dear? DEAR?! C'mon, he doesn't belong in the top 10 or even top 15 at all.
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Classic is more consistent because he actually won a Korean individual league a whole year after winning his first Korean league. Winning a tournament should count for far more than simply making it far in a lot of tournaments. That's the entire purpose of the game - to win. Performances short of winning should only be taken into account for players who are close in tournament wins - and winning a 2nd Korean individual league a full 12 months after winning his first Korean league puts Classic well ahead of every other Protoss (except for sOs).
I said before Zest was ro8+ in everything except Blizzcon for 2014 (no shame in going 2-3 to a peak Life). That includes 3 GSLs, 2 IEMs, 1 Kespa Cup, a GSL WC, and a Hotsix Cup. Which is just absolutely insane. Only Mvp beats his 2014.
Zest had a great 2014 but that's it - it was a 5 to 6 month time period and after that he couldn't make it out of Code B. Over the 3 year time period of HotS that's the very definition of not consistent.
Not necessarily. There are many factors that can contribute to players getting worse or better as time goes on such as meta, balance, motivation, and personal issues.
These are general factors affect whether a player does well in any tournament. We can only go by actual results. The meta got worse for Protoss (except arguably PvZ after the swarmhost patch) as the game went on. Zest got worse. Classic stayed a champion.
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I'm not even going to touch the rest of this, but Dear? DEAR?! C'mon, he doesn't belong in the top 10 or even top 15 at all.
Dear won a Code S and WCS Season 3 finals in 2013, and made it to the Ro4 in Code S Season 3 2015 (and a Top 4 at 2013 Hot 6 Cup which you think is such a wonderfu acomplishment for Zest).
The fact that Dear isn't on the list shows how rampant the fanboyism is in this community. A good looking guy like Zest wins a few tournaments over a few months, Artosis starts hyping him, and people don't care what he does the rest of his career.
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On March 11 2016 10:01 BlackZetsu wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not even going to touch the rest of this, but Dear? DEAR?! C'mon, he doesn't belong in the top 10 or even top 15 at all. Dear won a Code S and WCS Season 3 finals in 2013, and made it to the Ro4 in Code S Season 3 2015 (and a Top 4 at 2013 Hot 6 Cup which you think is such a wonderfu acomplishment for Zest). The fact that Dear isn't on the list shows how rampant the fanboyism is in this community. A good looking guy like Zest wins a few tournaments over a few months, Artosis starts hyping him, and people don't care what he does the rest of his career.
Zest was a top 5 Protoss for over a year
Dear was a top 5 Protoss for about a week
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EPT
