EPTGreatest HotS Players of All Time: Part 2 - Page 6
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JulDraGoN
Sweden370 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
That will be funny. Even sOs, #7 has longer list of accomplishments than Zest on liquipedia  I wonder how Stuchiu makes it possible  | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On March 03 2016 17:48 deacon.frost wrote: That will be funny. Even sOs, #7 has longer list of accomplishments than Zest on liquipedia I wonder how Stuchiu makes it possible Because Zest was a more dominant player during HotS. Or something along those lines. | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 03 2016 17:51 Phredxor wrote: Because Zest was a more dominant player during HotS. Or something along those lines. Consistency. Personally, I'd rank Zest and sOs right next to each other in the top 5 going either way. But following the reasoning so far in these articles, if Maru beats sOs for consistency then Zest easily does as well. Despite tons of contenders during the Blink Era of 2014, Zest firmly sat on the Protoss throne for about a year. No player except Mvp has had a stronger year than him. He made ro8+ in every tournament he entered except Blizzcon (and even then lost 2-3 to the eventual champ). Then he followed that up with a respectable 2015, which while not nearly as dominant as the previous year was still pretty good for him. sOs on the other hand has always hovered between genius and just another top-tier Protoss. He's just never been able to keep the spark alive for long like Zest. He's always lurking around as potentially the strongest Protoss though. You really get the idea if you scroll through their results page. It's unstable vs rigid: sOs Zest | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 18:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Consistency. Personally, I'd rank Zest and sOs right next to each other in the top 5 going either way. But following the reasoning so far in these articles, if Maru beats sOs for consistency then Zest easily does as well. Despite tons of contenders during the Blink Era of 2014, Zest firmly sat on the Protoss throne for about a year. No player except Mvp has had a stronger year than him. He made ro8+ in every tournament he entered except Blizzcon (and even then lost 2-3 to the eventual champ). Then he followed that up with a respectable 2015, which while not nearly as dominant as the previous year was still pretty good for him. sOs on the other hand has always hovered between genius and just another top-tier Protoss. He's just never been able to keep the spark alive for long like Zest. He's always lurking around as potentially the strongest Protoss though. You really get the idea if you scroll through their results page. It's unstable vs rigid: sOs Zest Consistency is too big factor IMO. Maru was at least dominant in the time when Terran was bad(3 Terrans GSL ). Maru made it far in these settings, which should be considered as a huge success.Well, I think that this time Stu shouldn't made the list and it would be better. Edit> That being said I still think Maru was beast but result wise sOs was better in HotS. Also all killed KT | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3553 Posts
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 21:04 boxerfred wrote: sOs is even worse than 7. He's kind of an abusive player which gives him results but not greatness. He has results. Watch his all kill of KT - he wasn't abusive he was better. sOs can play really well, he can have stellar micro & macro. Skillwise he's not top10, herO, Parting, Rain, Zest - all these players are above him based on their skill(not in this exact order) and their consistency in skill. Also he cheesed the shit of JD, but his 2nd Blizzcon title was taken from cheesing Life And I bet your left testicle Life, the abusive player, is better than #7 | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On March 03 2016 21:16 deacon.frost wrote: He has results. Watch his all kill of KT - he wasn't abusive he was better. I think abusive is a good way to describe a 2-base all-in off a gold nexus and 2-base blink into DTs into macro against Terran. But there's greatness to the way sOs abuses not only player mentalities, but also things in the game people really don't know they can abuse the way he does (e.g. tempests or gold bases). There's a reason stuchiu said he likes sOs better than most players on his own list, after all. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 21:25 Elentos wrote: I think abusive is a good way to describe a 2-base all-in off a gold nexus and 2-base blink into DTs into macro against Terran. But there's greatness to the way sOs abuses not only player mentalities, but also things in the game people really don't know they can abuse the way he does (e.g. tempests or gold bases). There's a reason stuchiu said he likes sOs better than most players on his own list, after all. Both PvP games were standard and that TY game was unscouted/misread blink all-in. That wasn't abusive. The gold bae game... hmmm :D jjakji vs. sOs - carrier storm - where's the abuse? I think all this comes to the fact that sOs effectively killed JD who couldn't adapt and from then JD is worse and worse. And people here don't forget | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On March 03 2016 21:52 deacon.frost wrote: Both PvP games were standard and that TY game was unscouted/misread blink all-in. That wasn't abusive. The gold bae game... hmmm :D jjakji vs. sOs - carrier storm - where's the abuse? I think all this comes to the fact that sOs effectively killed JD who couldn't adapt and from then JD is worse and worse. And people here don't forget Blink all-ins with DT follow-ups were abusive as fuck in HotS, at least on the Terran side you felt like you got abused in the worst way after it was over I'm not sure it's really because of Jaedong. But neither sOs nor Jaedong is close to the top of my popularity chart by any margin, so I can't really tell.  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 21:59 Elentos wrote: Blink all-ins with DT follow-ups were abusive as fuck in HotS, at least on the Terran side you felt like you got abused in the worst way after it was over I'm not sure it's really because of Jaedong. But neither sOs nor Jaedong is close to the top of my popularity chart by any margin, so I can't really tell. TY didn't scout it properly. But whatever, I myself agree that sOs can play abusive as fuck, turning meta into worthless nothing, doing things that shouldn't be possible and changing everything. But he can play standard game, that's when he's the most abusive at all. Everyone is waiting on his cheese and there's NONE! Still, should be in top5 at least. And I don't think he should be called as abusive player. he's a nice guy, smiling and stuff. Losira is abusive, look at his stare! (The Staremaster!) | ||
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Tosster
Poland299 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 22:38 Tosster wrote: Maru higher than herO AND sOs? This is some bullshit, sorry Consistency > accomplishments. Maru was the best Terran when every other Terran sucked | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 03 2016 22:49 deacon.frost wrote: Consistency > accomplishments. Maru was the best Terran when every other Terran sucked Winning a tournament isn't everything... Making it fairly far a lot of the time is more impressive then winning one time and never be seen again. Maru had a lot of high place finishes in hots in korea, that's more impressive than sOs for sure | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On March 03 2016 23:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: Winning a tournament isn't everything... Making it fairly far a lot of the time is more impressive then winning one time and never be seen again. Maru had a lot of high place finishes in hots in korea, that's more impressive than sOs for sure That depends on the view, the drive to make it able and to not choke in the finals(soO! I am looking at you!) should be counted high too. That's so subjective topic I don't think this rating should be done. This is no WoL, where we had the king certain, MVP was the best for a long time and was winning things when he was the best. Maru was the best Terran for a year and won what? There wasn't a consistent player who dominated. Even Life had his ups and downs. Innovation, soO, ByuL. All these players were consistent but were not winning. Do we value consistency more than the ability to not choke yourself and win? Really? OK, some people may say so. But I don't get it. Honestly, today Classic choked himself to lose the game vs. Patience. Hydra choked himself to lose 2:0 lead vs. Lilbow(he was outclassing him and then he lost somehow 2 games in a row after that game #3). These players are missing the key ingredient to be the best - the ability to win things. And that's why in my head sOs > Maru, herO, Rain, Parting, Zest. sOs >= Innovation, Life(depends on how big value you gave to each tourney win) And as this topic shows this view is really big, 4 pages of "WTF? sOs #7?". Edit> 6 pages Edit #2> And look few posts back what I wrote about herO, Rain, Parting and Zest | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On March 03 2016 23:30 deacon.frost wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 03 2016 23:14 The_Red_Viper wrote: Winning a tournament isn't everything... Making it fairly far a lot of the time is more impressive then winning one time and never be seen again. Maru had a lot of high place finishes in hots in korea, that's more impressive than sOs for sure That depends on the view, the drive to make it able and to not choke in the finals(soO! I am looking at you!) should be counted high too. That's so subjective topic I don't think this rating should be done. This is no WoL, where we had the king certain, MVP was the best for a long time and was winning things when he was the best. Maru was the best Terran for a year and won what? There wasn't a consistent player who dominated. Even Life had his ups and downs. Innovation, soO, ByuL. All these players were consistent but were not winning. Do we value consistency more than the ability to not choke yourself and win? Really? OK, some people may say so. But I don't get it. Honestly, today Classic choked himself to lose the game vs. Patience. Hydra choked himself to lose 2:0 lead vs. Lilbow(he was outclassing him and then he lost somehow 2 games in a row after that game #3). These players are missing the key ingredient to be the best - the ability to win things. And that's why in my head sOs > Maru, herO, Rain, Parting, Zest. sOs >= Innovation, Life(depends on how big value you gave to each tourney win) And as this topic shows this view is really big, 4 pages of "WTF? sOs #7?". Edit> 6 pages Edit #2> And look few posts back what I wrote about herO, Rain, Parting and Zest I'd say stating that Classic doesn't have what it takes to win when he's won 2 Starleagues and an IEM is a bit questionable. Also, Zest is gonna end up in front of sOs is because he won 3 tournaments in Korea in 2014 and finished top 4 in like every Korean tournament except one GSL that year. I guarantee you that's gonna be the main reason for stuchiu. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 03 2016 23:30 deacon.frost wrote: That depends on the view, the drive to make it able and to not choke in the finals(soO! I am looking at you!) should be counted high too. That's so subjective topic I don't think this rating should be done. This is no WoL, where we had the king certain, MVP was the best for a long time and was winning things when he was the best. Maru was the best Terran for a year and won what? There wasn't a consistent player who dominated. Even Life had his ups and downs. Innovation, soO, ByuL. All these players were consistent but were not winning. Do we value consistency more than the ability to not choke yourself and win? Really? OK, some people may say so. But I don't get it. Honestly, today Classic choked himself to lose the game vs. Patience. Hydra choked himself to lose 2:0 lead vs. Lilbow(he was outclassing him and then he lost somehow 2 games in a row after that game #3). These players are missing the key ingredient to be the best - the ability to win things. And that's why in my head sOs > Maru, herO, Rain, Parting, Zest. sOs >= Innovation, Life(depends on how big value you gave to each tourney win) And as this topic shows this view is really big, 4 pages of "WTF? sOs #7?". Edit> 6 pages Edit #2> And look few posts back what I wrote about herO, Rain, Parting and Zest I don't understand your examples tbh. Classic "choked" today before the finals and thus he cannot win stuff? He already won 2 starleagues last year btw. What about sOs when he doesn't even make it far in a tournament? Why isn't that considered "choking" then? IMO the only fair way to value a player is to look at all of his results, not just the tournament wins (i actually think this view is fairly objective tbh) No player ever has only extremely good results (winning), all the other results have a certain value too (getting to the finals, soO!, a lot of semis, Maru!, etc) Even more so when we consider that these guys did it in the hardest region (korea). Is a tournament win vs worse players (Taeja) really better than getting to the semis or even quarters in code s? I am not so sure tbh. You certainly wouldn't say that Fruitdealer had a better career than soO? | ||
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Ensiferum8
Canada103 Posts
Putting sOs #7 is not just personal preference, its just plain wrong. Anyone with basic sc2 knowldge could say that sOs should be top 3. Meh, hopefully we see better stuff out of him. I thought stuchiu knew soo much about sc2, maybe i was wrong...... | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 04 2016 01:11 Ensiferum8 wrote: I think the vast majority of people here are really disappopinted by stuchiu awfull ranking. Im glad im not the only one. Honestly, its not even about personal preference. Putting sOs #7 is not just personal preference, its just plain wrong. Anyone with basic sc2 knowldge could say that sOs should be top 3. Meh, hopefully we see better stuff out of him. I thought stuchiu knew soo much about sc2, maybe i was wrong...... Maybe you should argue your point instead of making these comments over and over again without much reasoning. I didn't count, but i would bet that from all the comments which are about sOs being too low, you surely posted at least 50% of those | ||
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