EPTWCS 2016: The Life and Death of the Foreigner Narrative -…
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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looken
727 Posts
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p4ch1n0
Germany38 Posts
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there. Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL. On December 19 2015 21:02 p4ch1n0 wrote: Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway. Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic. | ||
munch
Mute City2363 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL. Props to State for dreaming the dream | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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Penev
28500 Posts
Korea - world clashes. Maybe Afreeca and SpotTV can jump in.. | ||
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Penev
28500 Posts
On December 19 2015 19:57 lichter wrote: OR IS IT just kidding of course there's gonna be proleague I REALLY would want to hear something about it by now though. And if there's going to be an 8th team.. | ||
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looken
727 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL. Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic. The authors argument is "there will never be a foreigner as great as the ones in the past because they don't have the chance to beat Koreans anymore". My point is that this statement is wrong. Yes it would be extremely difficult to compete in GSL, but it IS still POSSIBLE. So the argument "there will never be someone as great as Stephano because foreigners don't get the chance to play vs Koreans anymore" simply isn't true. And the argument "well no foreigner in his right mind will play in GSL because it is too hard" is simply flawed. You cant say foreigners don't get the chance to be as great as past legends anymore just because it would be extremely hard to do so. To your other question: "Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'?" Competition is certainly the main driver in getting better and increasing your skill. But if competition is so hard that you cant realistically expect to make a living as pro gamer you wont do it. So if this system allows you to support yourself and therefore allows more players to actually TRY to be a pro i think that is beneficial. Imagine Stephano would never have played the game because he thought "oh i don't have a chance in winning anyway, the competition is too strong" do you think that would have been good for the scene? Maybe there are a lot more Stephanos out there just not willing to risk their livelihood right now because the current situation was just way too bleak for non Koreans. | ||
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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lestye
United States4182 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:13 Penev wrote: I REALLY would want to hear something about it by now though. And if there's going to be an 8th team.. I'm hoping IM comes back as the 8th team. | ||
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p4ch1n0
Germany38 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic. If you throw in a bronze player into GM they will lose 100 games in a row, see that they don't have a chance and quit the game. But if you let them play vs opponents who are around the same skill as them, they will practice and maybe get to GM level one day. But I don't really know if this anology aplies to pro players. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:20 p4ch1n0 wrote: If you throw in a bronze player into GM they will lose 100 games in a row, see that they don't have a chance and quit the game. But if you let them play vs opponents who are around the same skill as them, they will practice and maybe get to GM level one day. But I don't really know if this anology aplies to pro players. Let's call it the 'Lilbow-effect'. Blizzcon is still going to be unwinnable for a foreigner, so why should they bother to prepare for the only tournament, where they face real competition? The rest of the year gives them more money than they can ever make at Blizzcon anyway, therefore it's not really worth the effort. If you give a local tennis player the same amount of money for some low level tournaments as they'd get in the really big tournaments I doubt they'd care about the international tournaments that much. | ||
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looken
727 Posts
In the short run skill level might suffer, but in the long run this system might lead to more foreigners trying to become pro. A lager pool of players (and therefore possible "Stephanos") will lead to finding the next Stephano much faster then a smaller pool of players. Besides just look at the facts. We had a system in which foreigners could compete with Koreans for pretty much all of Starcraft. It lead to the steady decline of the foreign scene. At some point Blizzard even saw the need to come up with some sort of region lock. In theory i'd agree with your point that stronger competition leads to higher skill, but reality in SCII does not support that statement. It seems that competition has been so hard that most foreigners were discouraged to play the game in the first place. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there. Of course they are allowed to participate in GSL, but let's be honest here, most of them wouldn't even be able to get out of Code B, let alone move from Code A to Code S. | ||
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drifterr
23 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:02 p4ch1n0 wrote: Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway. they wont practice harder or better or anything like that. things will remain the same for foreigners. people like tlo wont get better by these changes... | ||
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p4ch1n0
Germany38 Posts
On December 19 2015 21:44 Swisslink wrote: Let's call it the 'Lilbow-effect'. Blizzcon is still going to be unwinnable for a foreigner, so why should they bother to prepare for the only tournament, where they face real competition? The rest of the year gives them more money than they can ever make at Blizzcon anyway, therefore it's not really worth the effort. If you give a local tennis player the same amount of money for some low level tournaments as they'd get in the really big tournaments I doubt they'd care about the international tournaments that much. You just supported my point. Lilbow didn't practice because he knew he doesn't have a chance. If he would have had a decent chance he would have practiced and gotten better. Even if foreigners don't practice for the global competition there are enough circuit events to practice for. And since every pro foreigner has a chance to win and the pricepool is very high they will practice a lot. | ||
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achan1058
1091 Posts
On December 19 2015 22:17 p4ch1n0 wrote:You just supported my point. Lilbow didn't practice because he knew he doesn't have a chance. If he would have had a decent chance he would have practiced and gotten better. Even if foreigners don't practice for the global competition there are enough circuit events to practice for. And since every pro foreigner has a chance to win and the pricepool is very high they will practice a lot. Since none of them will now have a chance at Blizzcon, they won't practice to be good enough for that level. They will only practice enough to beat other non-Koreans. In this way, the skill gap widens. Instead of seeing 1 Lilbow, we will see 8. | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
On December 19 2015 19:21 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: I also disagree with the author that this will be worse for the scene. I'm sorry, but if you want to watch the best, ther is plenty of opportunity to do so. but there are other players who want to have a bit of the cake too (money). It is simply not worth it to be a sc2 pro if you can't get out of group stages in big tournaments. Slightly less tournaments in Korea is for the better, gives playerse more tim to prepare. We are actually oversaturated with tournaments. You also cannot expect everybody to go to korea "if they want a chance to compete". There is always the top 10 percentil which you cannot reach. Why should I care about Starcraft players who 1) Can't compete with the best 2) Don't want to compete with the best 3) Tell me about 1 and 2 with a straight face. I've seen enough "region locking" in Russian football and hockey to know that it doesn't increase player quality or entertainment. And one thing I am certain in is that you can't reach top 10% if you don't try. | ||
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