|
On December 20 2015 14:46 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 13:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On December 20 2015 08:13 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote:
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments. For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it. Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion. The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months. I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever. Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned? Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes. I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I'm surprised how blind can you be on why people retire. Have you asked them why they do it? Correlation does not imply causation. Ask these who retired why they did it. If they say "it's because of the new WCS system, it's Blizzard's fault" - I'll turn my opinion on new WCS from fairly favorable to poor, as obviously StarCraft needs healthy Korean scene to survive long-term.
A little bit more than healthy foreign scene, as obviously you could see that StarCraft II was very, very big and was getting even bigger when open WCS turned WCS America into WCS Korea B and left almost no chances to people who could not practice with Koreans regularly. Instead of fighting for championship, people honestly started to aim for top-something.
People playing for almost 10 years can be exhausted because of constantly playing the game in general, can you imagine that? If you think that current Korean professional player base is specifically a thing we need to desperately hang on to, not a healthy system, I understand your view and I won't try to discuss with you anymore, since we are talking about different things.
Let's rig the system to never give chances to foreigners, screw their possible infrastructure, don't sponsor their tournament trips (it's so great that they do it) but throw more money into Korea, never let upsets happen, seed sOs, Life and others or turn balance in their favor - if they won't qualify once, just make more tournaments for them to increase their chances - and we'll have the perfect StarCraft we can possibly get. I love Korean scene. It's sad to see players I rooted for go. And while I understand that fans can leave the game and move on with their favorite players leaving, like it happened with IdrA, it's the game that is played, not players.
I feel people against the system hate the system so much because they pity Koreans having too strong competition in their own region. I don't know what to think about it. It's like boycotting football world cup because your favorite team from South America didn't qualify.
And again, the main problem this system has it's that it is introduced too late. And again with the world cup analogy, it's like taking out one slot from mentioned CONMEBOL (South America) in favor of CONCACAF (North and Central America with Carribean). It arguably sucks for the overall quality of the game in the big tournament happening every four years, having one less team from super-competitive region in favor for other, but it creates a possibility of sparking more motivation and raising base skill and interest in the second. Can you imagine the outrage it would create in football, if it happened there? Can you even imagine how many potential talent in South America is wasted because of the local competition? Isn't that - as someone here keeps saying - "racist"? Blizzcon should be a world summary of players, become an incentive for players, the dream they have. If you dislike the system so much, ignore WCS and watch only GSL/SSL with Proleague. Watch only the Copa America. I will definitely watch all of them because I love them, but I would like to see local scenes rising too.
But in the end, it's a business, and as an esport it has much more rapid life and shorter life expectancy than a traditional sport - therefore I imagine it is not possible to commit to for more than 10 years unless you're in Korea, or you really like the industry and want to make it big. But to make it big it takes more than few willing people (if you're not a millionaire). That's a hope I have for this system, to spark interest in local, non-Korean scene again. People underestimate regional WCS from few years ago, how interesting it was. Or maybe don't remember?
Wow, I edited that post a lot.
|
On December 20 2015 21:20 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 20:51 y0su wrote:On December 20 2015 14:00 waiting2Bbanned wrote:
BTW, as a viewer I gotta say I'd rather watch high quality matches without any foreigners any day, and by forcing lots of really good korean players to quit/retire or give up on their careers as pro-gamers by favoring lower skilled foreigner players Blizz is lowering the quality of the matches and the entertainment value of the matches. I cannot see how this is going to benefit the SC2 scene as a whole in the long run. Ironic that it happens to be college bowl season. I wonder how it survives being such inferior matches to he NFL... I think foreigner Starcraft, with just a few exceptions is more comparable to High school football rather than college football. IMO
I won't argue that :D
However, I still feel that these "lower level matches" won't hurt the scene. Some will stop watching, others will watch longer... Everyone watches for their own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that. Either you're entertained or not. Personally the matches I have the least interest in are foreigner vs Korean. We'll see in a year what the overall viewer results are.
I'll also repeat my thoughts on the financial impact this change might have. Money stays in each scene. Previously a lot of money was spent for Koreans to travel. Even if more money ended up going back to Korea than was spent on travel it probably wasn't a huge gain. However, I do think it's going to be a huge gain for the foreign scene to be able to collect all the prizes from circuit events! If the small loss for Koreans can be compensated by slightly larger investment in WCS Korea then then all we end up with is a big gain in the western scene. Now, if this can also interest "casual viewers" a little more that might really see the foreigner scene grow. There's a lot of guessing in there and only time will tell but I think there's positive changes all around.
|
My first thought was: "How is HuK gonna be the new foreign hope?!"
Sad days.
|
On December 20 2015 23:45 aQuaSC wrote:
But in the end, it's a business, and as an esport it has much more rapid life and shorter life expectancy than a traditional sport - therefore I imagine it is not possible to commit to for more than 10 years unless you're in Korea, or you really like the industry and want to make it big. But to make it big it takes more than few willing people (if you're not a millionaire). That's a hope I have for this system, to spark interest in local, non-Korean scene again. People underestimate regional WCS from few years ago, how interesting it was. Or maybe don't remember?
Wow, I edited that post a lot.
Some of us remember, despite our best attempts not to *shudders*
|
On December 20 2015 21:33 cop354g wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 15:34 Cascade wrote:On December 20 2015 14:46 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 13:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On December 20 2015 08:13 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote:
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments. For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it. Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion. The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months. I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever. Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned? Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes. I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning. I think it is normal that people retire in e-sports (as in any sport). sc2 has been around for a long time, and starcraft pros usually start to struggle when they get too far into their twenties. That went for sc:bw as well I assume. The reason we see sc2 players retire is just that the game is getting old, which means that the oldest players are also getting old, so they retire. What we SHOULD look at, is if we still have an influx of new players and pros. But I feel that is a slightly different discussion, more related to "dedgaem". This new system makes it harder for koreans to win money in foreign tournaments (as you have been saying once or twice), which may trigger a few retirements that probably would have happened soon anyway. But well, I feel that a more important thing to look at is the influx of new faces. And the passive-aggressive insults from the two of you aren't really contributing to a better discussion imo.  So yeah, for the foreign scene we want two things: 1) Real incentive for foreigners to be their very best. 2) Give foreigners best training environment by frequently being matched against koreans. This also makes for a better spectator experience as pointed out in the OP. Completely open tournaments would hit 2), but 1) would suffer. Completely locked regions would fulfill 1), but 2) would suffer. I'd like to get off that sliding scale and find a way that meets both 1) and 2). Shouldn't that be possible in some way? I suggested international team leagues with at most 2 koreans out of 4 players or something, which maybe can meet both 1) and 2), I think team leagues in sc:bw (and sc2 for that matter) helped keep the mid-top korean players motivated as well, so maybe it'd work with foreigners as well. But I'd invite you and others to come up with something else. How about making progaming a sustainable career so its viable career choice so they dont need to retire so early?
Isn't that the topic of this entire discussion? I think everyone wants that.
How do you think it should be done though?
|
SC2 needs:
1 - big stages with top competition including local heroes.
2 - new players going pro in all regions
For "1" other than the existence of the tournaments itself, the foreigners must improve.
Watching foreigners get stomped is not fun, but the solution is not to exclude koreans. As long as the foreign scene is considerably weaker it will happen, unless we don't watch it at all, and this is how SC2 will die. If nobody cares about the top competition the locals won't have a big stage to move to. Sure its nice to see who is the best in the country or region but its not as appealing as watching those champions face each other and prove themselves.
Sounds obvious? But next blizzcon will probably have more stomps than ever and they will not be fun to watch! The biggest stage will be a place for local heroes to be anti hyped for life. That is, if foreigners don't step it up, which we shoudn't expect to just happen out of nowhere. Making sure they don't play on the korean ladder is very counter productive and while the current system helps new players move in it doesn't help them get better. Its not viable to give the e-sport infra structure and practice conditions of Seoul to the entire world, but that should be the general direction. I believe those 200k$ that the very best will get could be put to better use.
For "2" the WCS system works for all regions except Korea. For them its counter productive.
The Korean scene is the upper standard when it comes to skill and its also quite healthy right now. But its also the harshest competition and it must be extremely intimidating for newcomers. They need space for mid-tier players.
Who is going to try to play SC2 professionally if the smallest and only prize/title they can get is an SSL or GSL? At least they have the teams infra structure and support, but if there is nowhere for them to play the scene will shrink at the pace the players retire until its empty enough for new people to move in, and in this case it may not happen at all.
Things only get worse for them, not only its unfair, but its as if the sustainability of the korean scene is taken as granted.
Hurting the healthiest SC2 scene is making sure SC2 as an e-sport will die sooner.
|
Blizzard is trying to dictate what the crowds want and it will most likely fail.
From WoL selling 8+ million copies to hots selling 5+ to lotv selling...too early to say but does not look good.
The problem is that Blizzard is trying to replicate Kespa's success but they are not a company that is solely crated for the purpose of creating an e-sport, they are a game developing company.
Kespa managed to have a strong hold on broodwar because broodwar was already a big thing in Korea.
No one told people that its going to be a big thing, it was because people liked it, and Kespa found a way to organize it.
Thats not to say Kespa did it perfectly, but they basically saw a big pie and decided how to cut it.
Blizzard even in 2010 was already trying to cut a pie before there was a pie.
|
On December 20 2015 14:46 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 13:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On December 20 2015 08:13 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote:
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments. For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it. Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion. The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months. I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever. Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned? Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes. I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
lol, people are retiring all at once because it's the end of the year and contracts are up.
|
On December 20 2015 23:45 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 14:46 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 13:21 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On December 20 2015 08:13 Diabolique wrote:On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote:
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments. For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it. Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion. The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months. I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever. Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned? Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes. I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning. Let's rig the system to never give chances to foreigners, screw their possible infrastructure, don't sponsor their tournament trips (it's so great that they do it) but throw more money into Korea, never let upsets happen, seed sOs, Life and others or turn balance in their favor - if they won't qualify once, just make more tournaments for them to increase their chances - and we'll have the perfect StarCraft we can possibly get. I love Korean scene. It's sad to see players I rooted for go. And while I understand that fans can leave the game and move on with their favorite players leaving, like it happened with IdrA, it's the game that is played, not players. I feel people against the system hate the system so much because they pity Koreans having too strong competition in their own region. I don't know what to think about it. It's like boycotting football world cup because your favorite team from South America didn't qualify. And again, the main problem this system has it's that it is introduced too late. And again with the world cup analogy, it's like taking out one slot from mentioned CONMEBOL (South America) in favor of CONCACAF (North and Central America with Carribean). It arguably sucks for the overall quality of the game in the big tournament happening every four years, having one less team from super-competitive region in favor for other, but it creates a possibility of sparking more motivation and raising base skill and interest in the second. Can you imagine the outrage it would create in football, if it happened there? Can you even imagine how many potential talent in South America is wasted because of the local competition? Isn't that - as someone here keeps saying - "racist"? Blizzcon should be a world summary of players, become an incentive for players, the dream they have. If you dislike the system so much, ignore WCS and watch only GSL/SSL with Proleague. Watch only the Copa America. I will definitely watch all of them because I love them, but I would like to see local scenes rising too. Wow, I edited that post a lot.
1. Your soccer analogy is not very good. Conmebol gets way more spots at the WC than Concacaf. And there's little discussion about changing this.
Actually, the only major shift in WC spots I can remember was taking away the last spot from Oceania. Mainly because they were too weak (-> And Australia switched to Asia).
Yes, every region is still represented, but not every region with the same amount of spots.
2. The problem with the Blizzard system isn't that they try to support the foreign scene. The problem isn't either that they give WC-spots and money to the foreign scene. The problem is that they give the same amlunt of spots and probably MORE money to the weaker region. In soccer terms that's like giving Tahiti the same amount of money for winning the Oceania Championship as Spain for winning the European one. Or giving Oceania 5 spots at the world championship.
That's never gonna happen. For good reason!
|
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
|
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
|
On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
|
On December 22 2015 07:59 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league. You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all.
The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry.
There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue?
|
gahh, edit vs quote!  Sorry.
|
On December 22 2015 07:59 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league. You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yep. That's how it should be. But: Nowhere in the world does an American Football player even get close to the income of an American one. And that's just justified.
+ no one would argue that 50% of the teams at the Super Bowl (well... 1) has to be non-American. Guess why.
On December 22 2015 08:18 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 07:59 y0su wrote:On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league. You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win. Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all. The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry. There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue?
1. Well, not really. If a good South African player comes up (assuming they play it. No idea if they do, tbh), like really good, he'll play in America at one point. Therefore South Africa spent a lot of money for a player that just left as soon as the time was right.
2. In Tennis they let everyone play everywhere. There are bigger tournaments and there are smaller tournaments and depending on how big the tournament is, the more stacked the lineup. That's how it should be. Blizzard came up with a system, where the top 16 of the world would not be allowed to play in any Grand Slam tournaments (and yes, Tennis had this system once as well (Only amateurs allowed in GS-tournaments). They changed away for a really good reason.)
|
On December 22 2015 08:58 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 07:59 y0su wrote:On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league. You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win. Yep. That's how it should be. But: Nowhere in the world does an American Football player even get close to the income of an American one. And that's just justified. + no one would argue that 50% of the teams at the Super Bowl (well... 1) has to be non-American. Guess why. Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 08:18 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 07:59 y0su wrote:On December 22 2015 07:06 Cascade wrote:On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote:
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport... 1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic. 2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league. You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win. Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all. The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry. There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue? 1. Well, not really. If a good South African player comes up (assuming they play it. No idea if they do, tbh), like really good, he'll play in America at one point. Therefore South Africa spent a lot of money for a player that just left as soon as the time was right. 2. In Tennis they let everyone play everywhere. There are bigger tournaments and there are smaller tournaments and depending on how big the tournament is, the more stacked the lineup. That's how it should be. Blizzard came up with a system, where the top 16 of the world would not be allowed to play in any Grand Slam tournaments (and yes, Tennis had this system once as well (Only amateurs allowed in GS-tournaments). They changed away for a really good reason.)
It's big news in the community that a player with Finnish roots is playing football. Even Finnish NHL players get a lot of local media coverage. That turns into great PR for growing the sport locally.
I do agree that the money distribution could be mor appropriate..
However, I think one of the biggest thing to consider is also the fan base. A majority of viewers are western. The changes can't just be for players.
|
I rarely post on here, but this is my TL;DR 2 cents. Now, this is from a middle aged lawyer who grew up playing this game back in 1998 (and Warcraft 2 before that), a true OG if you will. Let me make one thing clear before I start: I'm not telling anyone to "get off my lawn." It is not my lawn anymore and you can do with it what you want as I have kids and only get to see this stuff from the sidelines anyway. That being said, I will attempt to give you my explanation for why this system is bad for the game, given almost 20 years of playing and watching Blizzard games.
It saddens me so much to see Blizzard throw the professional scene of this game into the toilet by tossing money at players who don't have the mindset or preparation to be professionals. They have mistakenly come to believe that the difference between professionals and amateurs is money. It is not.
The primary difference between Koreans and non-Koreans at this stage in the game is this: While there are exceptions on both sides, the Koreans contain the only true professional Starcraft players in the world who prepare like professionals and treat playing the game as a profession. We watch the Korean leagues because the level of skill is simply unmatched. Proleague is so fun because you get to watch back benchers spend inordinate amounts of time practicing one build, for one specific match to knock out a giant (and they succeed with surprising frequency!). Think about that kind of dedication. Most of those B teamers aren't paid, yet they sometimes spend an entire week (or more!) to prepare for a single map, a single opponent. The game in their hands becomes sublime, a testament to the saying that "every calling is great when greatly pursued."
Now you are asking yourself, what the hell is this old fuck talking about, why isn't someone who gets paid to do something a professional at it? Good question, dear reader. The difference between a professional and an amateur has nothing to do with pay or skill or results, it is, as I mentioned earlier, a mindset. In my industry (law), this means a few things. It means being borderline psychotic about how much I know about what I do (e.g. I am always looking to learn more about what I do and how to do it better). I constantly read trade publications, law review articles, decisions from higher courts, etc. so that my clients are never represented by a lawyer who does not know the law. It means I am available at all times to serve my clients. My clients can expect that I will pick up the phone at 3 am if they call me and are in trouble. It means there is no problem I will not figure out how to handle for them. If they call me and need a solution to a legal issue I've never dealt with, I will either (1) assemble a team in my firm who are experts in that area or (2) I will become an expert myself, regardless of how many sleepless nights that takes or (3) if 1 and 2 are impossible, find someone who will be able to serve my client at the level they are accustomed to. It means that I will work over Christmas on a motion to be filed the Monday after one of their employees steals company secrets to make sure that their competitors never obtain a key market advantage. It means I identify with my client completely. What is in their interest is in my interest, by definition. It means I will never embarrass my client with my actions. E.g., they will never see me in front of a judge saying that I failed to prepare for a hearing or that I do not know which judge dissented on an obscure case that I cite in my brief. This is not because I am being paid to do this. I did this long before clients ever paid me a premium to do these things and, instead, it is THE CAUSE of my success. I prepare obsessively while other people hope for the best. Intelligently designed practice, repeatable processes for betterment, and HARD WORK are the primary things that separate us from greatness.
Applying this to SC2 players, what would a true SC2 pro look like? Well, I can give you a pretty good example of what this wouldn't look like -- Lilbow. Lilbow went into the biggest match of his life and admitted he did not prepare for it. This is akin to me getting in front of a judge and blaming a blown hearing on a lack of preparation. That is the best the foreign SC2 scene has to offer, apparently. In my industry, I would be fired on the spot and possibly disbarred (e.g. prevented from ever practicing law again). Here, the foreigner scene largely came out in support of him (most shocking to me was Catz) and there wasn't so much as a peep from Blizzard when he impugned the integrity of their biggest event. Now, while it is going too far to say that he's a bad person or should be reviled, what it does say about him is that he is not a professional and shouldn't be allowed to masquerade as such. A professional puts his best preparation, his best effort, into every single job not because there is some expectation of winning or getting paid, but because to fail to do so would be a black mark on his character. How could my clients ever trust me to do my best again if, even once, I did not give them everything I had? Again, if people do not want SC2 to be a truly professional scene, that is fine play on this beautiful lawn that was once mine, but stop pretending that behavior like Lilbow's is compatible with professionalism. The NFL/MLB/NBA would suspend any player who told the media he didn't prepare before a playoff match because he wanted to avoid injury and rest up before his big contract signing in the off season. If we want to be taken seriously like those other professional sports, the players have to act in a similar fashion. And that brings me to my final point -- the only place where a majority of "pros" behave in that fashion is Korea, though my guess is that this system will lead to the slow demise of that scene.
So, contrast Lilbow with someone like, say, ForGG. Name the last day you can remember ForGG not streaming and grinding away at this game. When was the last stream you didn't see him trying out new ideas, tweaking builds, etc.? I can't even fathom a guess. And I would bet you that isn't the totality of the time he spends practicing the game. This is because for him the game is a vocation, a profession. To fail to prepare is not just losing a tournament or some money, it would be failing himself and his entire vocation. Contrast this with EU/NA "pros" who are constantly taking breaks for school or because they are burned out. Good for them, enjoy that work life balance. But do not tell me that you are a professional if grinding at your job 24/7/365 isn't what you want to do.
Now you may be, though probably aren't, wondering what my solution would be since I've bitched so much. The best solution I can think of would be for Blizzard to straight up bankroll 2-3 foreign teams. Pay for salaries, team houses, and most importantly, Korean coaches with high level local language proficiency. Maybe 1 in the EU, 1 in NA, and 1 in China. I will be honest that I do not know much about coaches these days, so I don't know who would even fit the bill, but Coach Park comes to mind. If translators are needed, pay for that too. Require in their contracts that the players live at the team houses 24-7 with specified breaks for vacation and strict policies regarding failure to practice. Regulate everything from practice to food to exercise and see if EU/NA pros can't be better than KR. Regardless, that would do more to address the fundamental problem than this poorly thought out gutting of Korean Starcraft, the best part of the pro scene as it exists today. The problem is a lack of preparation and professional work ethic on the part of EU/NA pros, not prize money.
TL;DR: Money does not make someone a professional. You either behave like one, prepare like one, or you do not. EU/NA pros, with a few notable exceptions, are amateurs. Throwing money at them will not make them professionals unless their underlying ethic is altered fundamentally. The average anonymous, unpaid B-teamer on a KESPA team prepares and behaves more like a professional than most top foreigners. The solution is to institute training solutions like those in Korea. Good life advice: if you are not the best at something, find what the best do and copy it shamelessly.
|
You know Danza as great as that post and how many of us said the same thing many times over.
The train was out of the station long ago and Blizzard missed it's mark. No matter what you do now the game is just going coast like all old releases. You release all the expansions you want. It's just a matter of time.
The game missed it's opportunity to ramp up long ago. there's nothing you can do to inject new life into the thing
BW was just perfect timing for an economy getting it's internet infrastructure in place. I have a hard time believing another RTS will capture an audience like that ever again for that long a time.
Oh yeah and Danza, you shouldn't be surprised by CatZ showing support for foreigners because that's sort of what he does around here. If you couldn't tell he was one of those guys preaching for a new system that was kinder to the foreign scene to begin with. He's made so many posts about it he sounds like a broken record and we all know in the end it won't change much of anything in terms of viewership except for put a few extra dollars in the pockets of the foreigners.
Ofc they want to make a little more money playing a game they will put some time and effort into once in a while. When they do put a lot of heart and soul into training they still have a hard time getting the results they want.
RTS games weren't meant for those looking for fame the easy way. Heck, it's even frigging hard to make it in LoL with the old boys club and fact of the matter is you need to find a good team with some actual chemistry.
Esports wasn't meant to be easy and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
|
haha, a lawyers perspective, thanks for that. 
In the majority of the society, "professional" does not require that you work 24/7. That is called poor work-life balance in most areas.
In the end it doesn't matter much which players we assign the label "professional" to. What blizzard wants to do is to use their money to create a thriving scene, in and outside of Korea. (So that they can earn more money from sales.) If it were best achieved by donating money to a bunch of lazy hippies that play coop once a week, Blizzard would do that. This concepts of "a true professional" doesn't carry any value by itself here. It's whatever can get the attention of as many viewers as possible.
I agree with you in that I like watching the Koreans play because they are just so damn good, and that some foreigners come across as spoiled brats in comparison. Many Koreans seem to share a similar view, that a "true progamer" has to completely give up their life for the game. But that probably doesn't go for the majority of the potential viewers, which will be very casual foreigners.
|
But can those changes attract more viewers? Especially foreigners that watch foreign tournaments? Most people already have they point of view that they prefer watching Koreans because the average skill level is higher. I just hope for more ads or news article on gaming related sites about SC2 tournaments.. That might help making people like me interested in watching a tournament. People that played/play Starcraft (maybe even new ones), that watch a variety of esports tournaments but are too lazy to go search for schedules by themselves. And with viewers comes the money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
