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On December 20 2015 05:07 showstealer1829 wrote:
There's no motivation for a Foreign player to improve if he doesn't have to face Inno more than 3-4 times a year (IF we're lucky, I'll address that later). I'm all for creating a foreign scene, but you don't strengthen the scene as a whole by killing off the one strong scene you have, which is what will happen with these changes, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but before the year is out it will happen
I agree that there could've been more support in the announcement for the Korean leagues. However, I'm curious why you think foreigners are motivated by Korean matchups? Lilbow was the only foreigner to show up at the Global Finals, and that's pretty much all he did...show up. This year was probably the best in terms of Korean vs foreigner matchups, and it didn't seem to pan out very well.
Edit: Though, despite all this, I still really enjoyed the starcraft 2 2015 scene! Heh, trying to up the spirits in this thread a bit...
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On December 20 2015 05:34 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play". I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 20 2015 05:40 looken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:34 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play". I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted. But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
By that logic 2015 WCS > 2016 WCS for foreigners because there were 8 less tournaments since there are less chances to become the champion and they'll be more motivated to practice.
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On December 20 2015 05:40 looken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:34 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play". I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted. But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
With that line, I simply meant that the hardcore fanbase preferred to watch games perceived to be of higher skill(in tournaments like GSL and SSL), which are mostly Korean in nature, rather than WCS games. This remark was a reply to aQuaSc's statement that we should rethink what we want to watch.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
Hell, if we want level play why bother with pro players at all? Just get a bunch of people off the street who've never touched Starcraft and we'll see how they learn on the job. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is great way to go about things
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With that line, I simply meant that the hardcore fanbase preferred to watch games perceived to be of higher skill(in tournaments like GSL and SSL), which are mostly Korean in nature, rather than WCS games. This remark was a reply to aQuaSc's statement that we should rethink what we want to watch.
--> the hardcore fanbase
...and most of people watching are not hardcore fanbase, even if in a game like sc2, the ratio is probably higher than it is in a more "casual" game. You have here one of the answer explaining the choice of blizzard's change for 2016, or at least, a reason explaining why they did not refuse to do this change.
I'm not a grandmaster player, i play SC2 for fun, and I don't consider myself as part of a hardcore fanbase even if i'm watching most of broadcasted tournaments. I know when watching korean pros that some of their moves are incredible, but sometimes i see the same kind of play in foreigners matches.
And even if korean players are sometimes godlike, i always enjoy watching foreigners.
This is why i'm ok with 2016 format, even if i understand the point of view of "hardcore fanbase".
And hardcore fanbase is posting a lot on TL forum 
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These are difficult times, "racist" Blizzard trying to damage the Korean scene, foreign players cheering for their free money and the shameless SC2 casters and business community celebrating.
Who deserves acknowledgement is everyone from that community, who is not celebrating, but seeing it with realistic eyes, including the screw-up of Koreans. The article above written by Stuchiu is great. I found a second reasonable opinion and EGInControl won my respect. It is a very good article, explaining, why and for whom the changes are good, while at the same time not neglecting the dark side: https://splyce.gg/topics/post/173
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Stop calling Blizzard racist, it's childish and unrelated to the issue.
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On December 20 2015 06:26 Ansibled wrote:
Stop calling Blizzard racist, it's childish and unrelated to the issue.
I did not call Blizzard racist. I called Blizzard "racist".
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Just have to say that the die hard fans on TL who have followed loyally are clearly not the viewers that Blizzard is trying to gain and attract with this move. I totally understand how people like that are mad about it and it is very unsurprising. I am pretty darn sure that is the vocal minority though.
Personally, I think it is pretty good. Also I think that people who say this will make foreigners worse are kind of stupid. It is very possible that the chance to win tournaments and make money rather than the chance to upset a korean and make the ro8 will prove to be better incentive to practice and get better at the game. It is not like the actual tournament games are where the improvement takes place.
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On December 20 2015 05:44 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:40 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 05:34 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play". I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted. But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion. By that logic 2015 WCS > 2016 WCS for foreigners because there were 8 less tournaments since there are less chances to become the champion and they'll be more motivated to practice.
I think you should compare apples with apples here. No foreigner has an actual shot at winning anything. I keep asking you guys to name just five foreigners that can repeatedly take games off Koreans. Nothing so far...
On December 20 2015 05:52 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 05:27 looken wrote:On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote:On December 20 2015 03:20 aQuaSC wrote:On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote:
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm.
To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players.
Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2.
Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear?
Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches. There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events. Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country. They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean. And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup? Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'. So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play". Hell, if we want level play why bother with pro players at all? Just get a bunch of people off the street who've never touched Starcraft and we'll see how they learn on the job. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is great way to go about things
the argument is that before you increase the skill level of a region you first need to actually develop said region... why is it so hard to understand that? its a very simple concept. sorry, but this is kind frustrating...
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Can someone explain to me why the new system doesn't help local scenes? I somehow still cannot understand how Koreans, hopping into DreamHacks and IEMs, with 90% of them practicing exclusively in Korea, helped raise the skill. To me it only increased the skill ceiling, hurting potential motivation to play. Is sOs, Life and others coming to an international event helpful to the local scene? Surely their presence created few great moments, but in most part it's helpful only for those who want to see them live, want an autograph and a picture. Or see them humiliate non-Koreans. I really want to understand why their trips to international events, where they are sure to take most of the top spots, are so great for the local scenes. To not view me as a blind supporter deserving no respect from hardcore fans, I'm sad about less GSL and SSL too.
By the way:
Foreigners will definitely be playing during BlizzCon opening weekend, with 8 spots assured.
I never thought for a second someone could list this as positive
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I did compare apples with apples. I'm not talking about pitting foreigners against Koreans, I'm talking about their individual leagues: WCS and GSL/SL.
I only compared the foreign region with the foreign region and the Korean region with the Korean region. In both cases more tournaments is better for both scenes. It doesn't make sense to say "More tournaments is better for the foreign scene, while less tournaments is better for the Korean scene"
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
This line of reasoning makes no sense. Lessening the amount of tournaments does change the competition and makes it worse.
Just look at WCS 2015, the entire argument was that with only 3 WCS for foreigners, there wasn't enough motivation for foreigners to practice. That goes the exact same for the Korean scene.
Just like how only 3 WCS tournaments is unequivocally worse than the ~11 tournaments this year, only 5 tournaments for Koreans is unequivocally worse than the 8 last year, especially because there are no guarantees of international tournaments to play in.
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On December 20 2015 06:40 Atreides wrote:
Just have to say that the die hard fans on TL who have followed loyally are clearly not the viewers that Blizzard is trying to gain and attract with this move.
No, clearly not, but they're the ones who've supported the game for years and will continue to do it after the other viewers move on to something new.
On December 20 2015 06:40 Atreides wrote:
Personally, I think it is pretty good. Also I think that people who say this will make foreigners worse are kind of stupid. It is very possible that the chance to win tournaments and make money rather than the chance to upset a korean and make the ro8 will prove to be better incentive to practice and get better at the game. It is not like the actual tournament games are where the improvement takes place.
They'll improve on a personal level, but they won't improve at a relative level because the level at which they practice and try to improve is lower. Foreigners won't get worse but the gap between best foreigners and best Koreans can and arguably will still widen considerably.
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its a great article but sc, sc2 is worn out now you wont get the same bang for your buck any more anyway, we just have to hope the core supporters of the game carry on supporting it so that we still at least get games and tournies. Its pretty clear that numbers are dropping for the game, people have had their time with it it seems to me
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On December 20 2015 04:21 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 20:14 Charoisaur wrote:On December 19 2015 20:01 OtherWorld wrote:On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote:
The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight Yes, I'm sure herO vs Petraeus will be so hype and unpredictable. Besides, why would foreigners be more able to put up a fight than in HotS? Infrastucture hasn't changed at all (except for the Mill house which will gain a bit in importance I guess), foreign ladders will be devoid of any Koreans besides Polt/Hydra/JD, the game is as demanding, if not more, as HotS, and there are no more Koreans in foreign teams who could occasionnaly help foreign teammates to train. Do you expect that a few additional dollars and some more articles on TL about a foreign player will somehow increase his skill level to a Korean's, who is training in a perfect environment with the best of the best everyday? he means a fight for which bo5 will be the quickest. Dethroning lilbow won't be easy but it can happen. Naniwa is still n°1 :p And something that helps to understand what's going on: DH/ESL are owned by the same company. Don't expect a lot of them, they're clearly backing out and it's demonstrated by ESL employees on twitter mocking everyone sad about the 1/3 less korean content.
I have to agree that the mocking tone of some people really disappointed me. I can respect people of different opinion but seeing people I like behave like that is sad.
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Or all of that was just a plot to let SC2 competitive scene die a faster, less painfull death than it awaits anyway.
Can the region lock increase viewership on more local tournaments? It sure can, but therefore SC2 must be able to attract viewers in the first place, especially those that havent seen or played SC2 before. And i doubt that companies will be willing to pump even more money into advertisment than they do at the moment. Especially in Europe and after the region lock.
I for example, am not a hardcore fan anymore. I know some of the pro foreign players, and a very few of the current korean pro players. I couldnt care less for the region lock because all i want to see is good games. And i am definitely not playing on a level where i could discern huge differences in skill. I can say they play good and they have a good micro. But i cant say if it is just good, very good or exceptional micro, macro and multitasking ability. For Example: Player A vs Player B (both European) compared to Player C vs Player D (both Korean). If those matches would be unnamed, i could hardly tell who is Korean, European, let alone the better player in general.
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On December 20 2015 06:55 StatixEx wrote:
its a great article but sc, sc2 is worn out now you wont get the same bang for your buck any more anyway, we just have to hope the core supporters of the game carry on supporting it so that we still at least get games and tournies. Its pretty clear that numbers are dropping for the game, people have had their time with it it seems to me
If SC2 is growing worn-out, it is Blizzard to be blamed for it. This move only looks to put foreigners on a pedestal, that they frankly didn't earn. It's an ignorant move by Blizzard, who think they know better than the rest of the world when it comes to how an eSport works. More than that, it's the latest in a long series of maneuvers made by Blizzard, to force the game to play exactly the way they want, and not how the players want. This isn't your game to play, it's Blizzard's, and they're driving that fact all the way home. It's a sad thing.
Also I'm just gonna let this 2112 sit here for a bit. Because I can.
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On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote:
I did compare apples with apples. I'm not talking about pitting foreigners against Koreans, I'm talking about their individual leagues: WCS and GSL/SL.
I only compared the foreign region with the foreign region and the Korean region with the Korean region. In both cases more tournaments is better for both scenes. It doesn't make sense to say "More tournaments is better for the foreign scene, while less tournaments is better for the Korean scene"
The difference is, Koreans are on par with other Koreans. So for Korea less tournaments can actually have a different effect than for the rest of the world. you can make a WCS every weekend, but if player A has no chance in winning that tournament because the competition is to strong it will not motivate him to train and increase his skill. its like that analogy another poster made. throw a bronze player in GM he will get stomped and lose interest and motivation. allow him to play vs players of his skill and he might get motivated to train harder and get better. i think this is what this system is doing. so more tournaments for foreigners might have the same effect as less tournaments for Koreans. i don't agree with your point that this has to be a contradiction.
On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
This line of reasoning makes no sense. Lessening the amount of tournaments does change the competition and makes it worse.
well i played sports on a very high level, even managed to win a national championship (okay Switzerland is not that big, but still ) and in my experience it is not the tournament that makes you better but the time you prepare for it. Hell we even had that proven in SCII when some pros said they wont attend some tournaments because it hurts their practice and overall skill level.
On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote:
Just look at WCS 2015, the entire argument was that with only 3 WCS for foreigners, there wasn't enough motivation for foreigners to practice. That goes the exact same for the Korean scene.
Just like how only 3 WCS tournaments is unequivocally worse than the ~11 tournaments this year, only 5 tournaments for Koreans is unequivocally worse than the 8 last year, especially because there are no guarantees of international tournaments to play in.
That might be true, but then again, doesnt Korea generally do what they want? Did Blizzard actually tell them to only run two GSLs in 2016? I mean at least i didn't see Blizzard telling Korea how to do it. If i didnt get that please correct me, but if it wasnt Blizz who told them what to do you cant really blame their system for less tournaments in Korea can you?
Edit: TL:DR Just to make this more/less tournament thing clear: I think more tournaments for foreigners increases their motivation to actually try to go pro. i dont think it will increase the skill level but i believe it might increase the overall player base.
Korea on the other hand already has a large player base and the highest skill level. besides Koreans have a really strong work ethic and infrastructure to support their training. so for Korea i can see less tournaments make the players work even harder so they can show the world how good they are and win the fewer existing tournaments.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
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EPT
