The changes to the WCS system for 2016 are the biggest since the transition from 2012 to 2013. On top of that, the announcement was convoluted and difficult to understand. After conferring with others, I tried to analyze and clarify what will likely happen in WCS in 2016, and the implications of the new system on the larger narrative of SC2. The following is purely my personal opinion.
The premise of this year’s WCS seems to be that they want BlizzCon as an event to change. Instead of being the best 16 players from a united WCS system, it will be split in half between Korea and the international circuit. The thing was, previous iterations of BlizzCon didn't necessarily result in the best 16 players in the world at the time, but this year’s BlizzCon gives a definitive split. A compromise between fans that want to see foreigners at BlizzCon and fans that want to see the best players at BlizzCon. This waters down the competitive integrity of the tournament, but the argument is that GSL/SSL were already the hardest tournaments in the world anyway. Whereas BlizzCon will now give fans who want to watch foreigners play more a glint of hope in the yearly finals and give fans who want to see the best play each other a chance to watch that in the later rounds.
After that, WCS will be split into four parts.
WCS Korea: Korea now has 2 seasons of GSL/SSL and whatever KeSPA/Hot6ix Cups are made (only one KeSPA Cup has been announced so far).
WCS Circuit: The WCS Circuit will have 3 Championships with regional qualifiers as well as 8 circuit tournaments as of this time (according to Apollo here, there are currently about 11 planned. Assuming 3 are the Championships, that leaves 8 others being IEM/DH/RB: http://apollosc2.tumblr.com/post/135405158638/my-thoughts-on-wcs-2016). These are essentially repurposed DH/IEM/RBs.
WCS Global: Tournaments under this brand are open to everyone and are non-region locked. However they have much larger restrictions to set up as a tournament organizer and based on some of them I’m expecting maybe 1-3 of these at the most next year. Requirements here: http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirements
Non-WCS Events: While there are multiple benefits to running a WCS event as you get Blizzard to sponsor your prize pool, not all events have to fall under the WCS umbrella. TaKeTV for instance found that region-locking Koreans out of HSC wasn’t something he was willing to do whether because it goes against the natural spirit of what HSC stands for (Can it really be called home, if half the SC2 players in the world can’t come?) or some other undisclosed reason (Source - Richard Lewis: http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/12/11/blizzard-reportedly-radically-overhauling-world-championship-series-of-starcraft-2/).
Here are the overall positives:
More prize money overall
Travel/support for qualified players for events, meaning more chances for lesser known foreigner players to make it to an event.
There are more foreigner-only tournaments for foreigners to compete in (boosted from 3 to at least 11 this year)
Foreigners will definitely be playing during BlizzCon opening weekend, with 8 spots assured.
Negatives:
Doesn’t address raising skill level in local regions.
Region locking of the ladder for international regions.
Fewer GSL/SSL leagues with only one KeSPA Cup confirmed (but no details) and no confirmation of Hot6ix Cup
Doesn’t address support for mid-tier Korean players. (Not particularly Blizzard’s fault as GSL/SSL are still top heavy and are setting the prize pools).
I’ll skip the positives as those should be self evident as to why those are generally good things. I will note that it's very good for fans that want to watch more local heroes.
Now onto the negatives. The system doesn’t address one of the main reasons it was initially created: to foster local growth. This is directly connected to the ladder system. Here is the exact quote: "Participants are required to play all tournament and ladder games required of them from the country listed on the account during the tournament season."
This affects NA/CN/SEA the most. NA server is bad, mostly because NA players on the West Coast can play a decent amount on the KR server to raise their skill and then play on the NA server to get some practice at ladder conditions. Players on the East Coast can do the same thing, but play on EU instead of KR. At the same time CN/SEA players can play on KR to help their practice. That clause directly forces those players to play on their own ladder, which is worse than Korea. The fastest way to improve as a player is to constantly play against better players over and over and Korea has by far the most depth of any server—that’s inarguable. It’s a great tool for anyone to practice on and one of the reasons as to why Koreans are always so sharp. With the lock down, players that had access to such a tool will naturally devolve.
Of course this could be temporary and be fixed depending on the details of what the Regional Cups do, but it’s something to think about.
The next bit is about the GSL/SSL. There are only 5 guaranteed tournaments (there could be multiple KeSPA Cups but only 1 has been confirmed). Fans that want to see more high level SC2 are worried because Korea will have 2 fewer tournaments compared to last year. The argument that is constantly brought up against this is that there is plenty of high level SC2 already, perhaps too much.
First of all, that’s a personal preference and as we shouldn't judge fans for wanting to watch foreigners, I also don’t think we should be judging fans for wanting to watch more high-level SC2. Another argument that’s brought up is oversaturation. In that case, no one has to watch every tournament and fans can pick and choose what they want rather than be starved for a lack of content. A third quibble people bring up is that it dilutes storylines.
From my perspective, more tournaments increases the strength of story-lines and narratives. The reason soO is considered a God is because he got to 4 consecutive GSL Finals. The reason Dream was incredible was because he was able to get to 2 SSL Finals. herO was an incredible player because he did so consistently in every Korean LAN. ByuL was considered the best Zerg at the end of HotS because of his multiple second places in SSL and GSL. If you start cutting down tournaments, you also decrease the value of a story. It's always more impressive when a champion consistently wins and places well against the entire field multiple times rather than just the once. That's why we still glorify NesTea and that's why no one remembers Seed.
Finally there doesn’t seem to be any plans to help low to mid-tier Korean players, so we should probably be getting another wave of retirements again as GSL and SSL continue to be top heavy.
Another major concern is that the success of WCS this year largely depends on outside organizations (ESL and DH, as well as Red Bull/Gfinity/etc) creating more SC2 events. Global events have too many requirements and if I were an organizer I'd just make WCS Circuit events as they're easier to make. Similarly, if I was a non-WCS event like, say Gfinity, I don't see the point in helping pay for flights for a small LAN with some Koreans in it, when you can kick out the Koreans and get support/money from Blizzard and make a WCS Circuit event instead. I think the point of the circuit is to return to the form of 2011/2012 where there was a plethora of international events. However there are distinct differences between then and now, which comes to my final critique.
The foreigner narrative in SC2 can never be as strong as it was in the past because of the region-lock. It seems counter-intuitive as there will be more events with foreigner-only events, however in the case of the best foreigners, the book has been closed. The reason is simple. While some people are trying to equate the region locked 2016 tournament circuit to the 2011/2012 circuit, that is simply disingenuous as it ignores one simple facet. Almost all of the LANs from 2011-2015 weren’t region-locked so foreigners could play against the best and prove they could beat the best. WCS 2012 was the only region locked tournament, and it ran side by side with international LANs. In 2016, that will no longer be possible except for a few Global events and the Ro16 before Blizzcon. In that kind of arena, we had rivalries and storylines such as:
Idra vs Jinro, Idra vs HuK, HuK vs NaNiwa, NaNiwa vs ThorZaIN, Stephano vs Korea, Stephano vs Polt, Scarlett vs Bomber, Snute vs herO, Snute vs SSL/GSL Champions, Nerchio vs MaNa, NaNiwa vs NesTea.
The reason these rivalries had so much depth and meaning was not just because they met time and time again; not only were they playing at the top of their game, but at the top of SC2. Jinro vs Idra is legendary because they met in the Ro8 in a GSL. MaNa vs Nerchio was incredible because both were dark horse EU players that could (and had) won tournaments with Koreans in them. Stephano vs Korea is still talked about in reverence in his one man campaign to take tournaments from Koreans time after time after time. What made this possible was that there was a multitude of events where foreigners could participate in (numbering about 40 on average each year until 2015). Going into 2016, a foreigner only gets BlizzCon, and however many Global/non-WCS events that have top tier competition, to prove that he ranks among the best players in the world. Even Stephano, unarguably the greatest foreigner ever, got to attend around 30 international LANs in his prime to make his name. When a foreigner now hits their prime, they'll get a handful of times per year to compete against the best.
Going into the future, no foreigner will ever get the chance to match the achievements of the past because those chances will not exist. Make no mistake, winning a WCS Championship is a feat, but that will never match NaNiwa’s run at Providence in 2011. It can never shock you like when Jim beat both Life and Taeja at IEM. It won't ever be as incredible as Sen saving 2014, won't be as heart pumping as Scarlett playing Bomber at Red Bull or IEM, will never resound in your soul in the same way as Sjow upsetting Life at DH, can never awe you like Snute beating Rain and Classic right after their GSL/SSL victories.
With this system, we are to a degree closing the book on how successful a foreigner can ever be in SC2. You will get more local narratives, build up more appearances and recurring stories about players in the international scene and give players that had very few chances their opportunity to shine. But for those few players, the ones that don't just want to be the best locally, but be the best ever, they will never get a chance to outshine someone like Snute. This is because Snute got the chance to prove his mettle by beating players like: herO, sOs, Classic, Rain, Solar. Most of whom were in their primes. Now if a foreigner reaches that level again, they just won’t get to meet the same level of competition except for once a year at BlizzCon and the occasional Global event (there could be none, there could be 3, there could be more, no one knows).
There is a give and take here. I agree that this system is far better for foreigners, but you just won’t get these kind of narratives for foreigners in SC2. They will never get he chance to build these kinds of stories across multiple tournaments in multiple meetings over a series of tournaments.
Heyoka told me that stories like these just don’t happen anymore. Maybe he's right, maybe I'm too optimistic about giving future foreign players the chance of living up to and surpassing the past. Stories like these may not have happened in a while, but with the system as it is now, perhaps they never will.
Agreed with most of this article. We don't support foreign hopes just because of their nationality/race whatever. It's because they manage to compete with the best from Korea despite not being part of the Korean training wheel. This is the narrative that I think will be lost with the introduction of the new system.
I'm really sorry but I've tried hard to make sense of this new WCS system since HotS. Could someone explain to me with comparisons to BW? It was so much simpler back then when it was just
this article isnt at all about "competitive integrity" or whatever. it's about how the narrative of foreign sc2 has been shaped in the past and what will happen to that narrative in the future.
On December 19 2015 13:23 wptlzkwjd wrote: I'm really sorry but I've tried hard to make sense of this new WCS system since HotS. Could someone explain to me with comparisons to BW? It was so much simpler back then when it was just
1. OSL 2. MSL 3. Proleague 4. WCG
in terms of importance.
GSL has pretty much standing of OSL SSL has pretty much standing of MSL ProLeague is still ProLeague WCG does not exist anymore. WCS Global Finals have been pretty much a much bigger and harder Blizzard Cup played at blizzcon. It is meant to determine the world champion in Starcraft.
WCS Events outside of global Finals cannot compared to anything of BW, also because they changed in format every year. In 2016 all WCS Events will be foreigner only events, only so called WCS global Events will be open to koreans, these events can be compared to other weekend tournaments you had during BW.
That's a really good point. Under the new system there won't be a place for an obvious underdog narrative. I hesitate to make the comparison, but it's a little like affirmative action in academia.
When Jinro and IdrA were in Korea during the first GSLs I instantly became a huge fan simply because they were outsiders. I hadn't really kept up with Jinro before that, and IdrA was, well, IdrA. The underdog factor made me not only a supporter for individual players but more interested in the scene itself as a result. However, the new system will allow more opportunities for players to grow as a more uniform global community which could potentially seed positive returns at the cost of limiting the tail end of Korean players.
I'm still undecided on whether I'm in support, but I'd make the argument that whether to agree with the new system depends on exactly what an individual considers the purpose of WCS and e-sports in general.
I think I agree with all your points. IMO something about the new system feels off to me, I couldn't quite put it into words, but I feel as though you said it well.
Lilbow making it into blizzcon by the skin of his teeth, was amazing to watch in 2015. I really admired his spirit and making the seemingly impossible possible.
I don't think story lines like that can happen in the 2016 system, but yes it allows for more foreigners at blizzcon. Foreigners making a career seem much more viable as well.
I think maybe I will disagree in that I think the system of 2015 really did (for the most part) make blizzcon a tournament of the best players in the world. That is my belief.
One thing I am sure of, is that I will not be able to say the same thing for the blizzcon of 2016.
Very well written article with solid arguments against the current system. Much better than all the buzzword-filled, hyperbolic rhetoric that the most vehement detractors of the 2016 WCS system have been spouting.
I wholeheartedly agree with the article though I'll note that the amount of WCS Circuit events and WCS Global events isn't quite clear as of yet. If (and this is admittedly looking very unlikely as of now) it turned out that WCS Global events were a major part of the system, I'd view it in a much more favourable light.
I think I'll overall have to disagree with the author. I don't think we were close to those epic stories in the last few years.
Ultimately it will have to depend on how many Global Tournaments there are.
I think the foreign region lock is needed, because it's so incredibly difficult to get exposure to be a pro foreign player. And I think that's been a problem for foreign players for quite some time now. I kinda get sad when I see the big esports orgs pick up players from much less established games, because they get so much value and exposure out of them, something they can't really do with Foreign SC2 players, (and buying up Korean ringers isn't useful either, there seems to be an expiration date on them where they'll inevitably get taken over)
I think building up storylines in bubbles could be a solution, although it might blow up in my face. I think these storylines can exist, but there will be asterisks attached to it. I think the ends justify the means, because this idea that foreign sc2 can "grow" by having koreans come over (Another Con i think of, is when a Star korean player stomps foreigners for money instead of being awesome in better leagues like GSL/SSL/Proleague, Come back Jaedong!) and stomp on foreigners for years on end is going to make NA SC2 more appealing is straight up not gonna happen.
While I completely agree with this article there will always be the State's of the world, the people who live and train in Korea because its the best. And I guess people like him are where that narrative will go.
I guess you could argue that there probably won't be another foreigner to pack up and move to Korea again but those guys would be the ones to follow for a similar story line. Just imagine the day where a player like State qualifies for the GSL/SSL, this place would explode with hype
On December 19 2015 14:05 chipmonklord17 wrote: While I completely agree with this article there will always be the State's of the world, the people who live and train in Korea because its the best. And I guess people like him are where that narrative will go.
I guess you could argue that there probably won't be another foreigner to pack up and move to Korea again but those guys would be the ones to follow for a similar story line. Just imagine the day where a player like State qualifies for the GSL/SSL, this place would explode with hype
He would by default be the best foreigner in the world just for qualifying. Crazy, huh.
I'm not actually sure less "Korean" tournaments is necessarily a bad thing. In 2015 with, what, 3 GSL and 3 SSL seasons plus proleague, a lot of the top tier players literally did not have time to go to international events. It's entirely possible that with fewer premier Korean leagues, that there will be more chances for more players to travel abroad and hit up the Global events. And if that's not the end goal, I seriously don't see Blizzard providing/incentivizing a billion western tournaments and then only give Korea 5. There will almost certainly be more if the end goal is to provide more opportunities for Korean players in Korea.
I honestly think all the "omg Korea is getting butt buggered so hard" rhetoric is insanely overblown, especially since we don't even know the full list of tournaments for next year, and which will be Circuit vs Global.
to me Starcarft is a esport. I dont need drama or forced story...i want the best players to compete on the same stage. Most foreign players that already trained for years will now stop to get better cause they can secure their wcs spot easily.
Great article, thank you Stuchiu for not pretending like the A(ss)pollos do.
I am just a bit more pessimistic, as after IEM announced to become a B-level tournament and the "World Championship" in Katowice becoming a ridiculous and uninteresting event, it seems that there will be 0 (ZERO) Global events.
And how you described the problem for mid-tier Koreans, this will not be problem only for them, but also to the top-tier Koreans, who do not show the consistency. So no more BlizzCon with sOs, maybe even no more BlizzCon with Life. The TOP tier Koreans have 4 shots per year to become 1st or 2nd in GSL and SSL. Who does not, will not qualify for BlizzCon. Instead of a reasonable WCS point system, as this year, this is becoming a lottery.
For me, after these announcements, all foreign players celebrating this development completely lost my respect. Mana, Nerchio, DesRow, I am never going to cheer for them again. Any other foreign player, celebrating on Twitter, how great it is to fuck up with Koreans in this way, is becoming the anti-hero.
On December 19 2015 14:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I'm not actually sure less "Korean" tournaments is necessarily a bad thing. In 2015 with, what, 3 GSL and 3 SSL seasons plus proleague, a lot of the top tier players literally did not have time to go to international events. It's entirely possible that with fewer premier Korean leagues, that there will be more chances for more players to travel abroad and hit up the Global events. And if that's not the end goal, I seriously don't see Blizzard providing/incentivizing a billion western tournaments and then only give Korea 5. There will almost certainly be more if the end goal is to provide more opportunities for Korean players in Korea.
I honestly think all the "omg Korea is getting butt buggered so hard" rhetoric is insanely overblown, especially since we don't even know the full list of tournaments for next year, and which will be Circuit vs Global.
On December 19 2015 14:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I'm not actually sure less "Korean" tournaments is necessarily a bad thing. In 2015 with, what, 3 GSL and 3 SSL seasons plus proleague, a lot of the top tier players literally did not have time to go to international events..
On December 19 2015 14:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote: I'm not actually sure less "Korean" tournaments is necessarily a bad thing. In 2015 with, what, 3 GSL and 3 SSL seasons plus proleague, a lot of the top tier players literally did not have time to go to international events..
I am too very skeptical of the Global Events thing. Blizzard have already shown that they're insterested in fostering the foreign scene almost exclusively, and IEM is following the same path apparently (see this joke of Taipei invitational). DH never was very Korean oriented either. On top of that, it seems easier to organize a WCS Circuit event than a Global.
So yeah, while it's very apropriate to say "wait until the actual announcements come before complaining", in this case I don't buy it.
The WCS Championships need to be WAY less top heavy imo. If you want to grow the foreign scene you need to have incentives for new blood and up and coming players.
Reading the requirements for a "Global" Event, pretty much every IEM that has happened will work. The prizepool would need to be bigger, but given how much they cost to run, it doesn't seem a huge issue (especially if Blizzard is backing some of them).
DH will probably be functionally European Tournaments, which it actually mostly has been for a while. Though could make some of the bigger ones a "Global" event without much of a change.
Looking at last year's list of Premier tournaments, the only tournaments actually effected will be the Dreamhacks. Some of the IEMs will become "Circuit" championships. This isn't going to be as much of a change as we're thinking.
Though the ones getting the worst hit are the B-teamers in Korea. You're not going to see many Solar runs when they're approaching being an A-teamer. But being a B-teamer has always been pretty terrible in Starcraft.
I personnaly think that the multiple events with koreans attending has raised the level of the foreigners scene. But foreigners still not has good has koreans. I will be interrested by some stats showing the numbers of SC2 players in each regions, because i think that many more koreans are playing SC2 than people in others regions.
I hope Polt, Hydra and some other koreans with a visa make this system look like a joke and win every tournament. This is really the most retarded thing someone could ever come up with.
On December 19 2015 17:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Reading the requirements for a "Global" Event, pretty much every IEM that has happened will work. The prizepool would need to be bigger, but given how much they cost to run, it doesn't seem a huge issue (especially if Blizzard is backing some of them).
DH will probably be functionally European Tournaments, which it actually mostly has been for a while. Though could make some of the bigger ones a "Global" event without much of a change.
Looking at last year's list of Premier tournaments, the only tournaments actually effected will be the Dreamhacks. Some of the IEMs will become "Circuit" championships. This isn't going to be as much of a change as we're thinking.
Though the ones getting the worst hit are the B-teamers in Korea. You're not going to see many Solar runs when they're approaching being an A-teamer. But being a B-teamer has always been pretty terrible in Starcraft.
You are WRONG. You need to read it again. There are no Global Events.
On December 19 2015 17:50 Charoisaur wrote: I hope Polt, Hydra and some other koreans with a visa make this system look like a joke and win every tournament. This is really the most retarded thing someone could ever come up with.
Exactly, I just hope, MC does it as well. When there are so much money available for free for him ...
I see the main result of these changes in a big amount of fans, who will stop cheering for foreign players and will cheer only for the disadvantaged Korean players.
On December 19 2015 17:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Reading the requirements for a "Global" Event, pretty much every IEM that has happened will work. The prizepool would need to be bigger, but given how much they cost to run, it doesn't seem a huge issue (especially if Blizzard is backing some of them).
DH will probably be functionally European Tournaments, which it actually mostly has been for a while. Though could make some of the bigger ones a "Global" event without much of a change.
Looking at last year's list of Premier tournaments, the only tournaments actually effected will be the Dreamhacks. Some of the IEMs will become "Circuit" championships. This isn't going to be as much of a change as we're thinking.
Though the ones getting the worst hit are the B-teamers in Korea. You're not going to see many Solar runs when they're approaching being an A-teamer. But being a B-teamer has always been pretty terrible in Starcraft.
You are WRONG. You need to read it again. There are no Global Events.
There aren't any announced yet. And the rules have only been published for 2 days. This doesn't mean I think this is the best choice of action, but the Doom & Gloom is, currently, way overblown.
this new system could be bad or it could be good, but it is important to take more time before people make the drastic judgments they love to make. I think most opinions online have been formed based on richard lewis' posts and not on the actual rules...
On December 19 2015 17:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Reading the requirements for a "Global" Event, pretty much every IEM that has happened will work. The prizepool would need to be bigger, but given how much they cost to run, it doesn't seem a huge issue (especially if Blizzard is backing some of them).
DH will probably be functionally European Tournaments, which it actually mostly has been for a while. Though could make some of the bigger ones a "Global" event without much of a change.
Looking at last year's list of Premier tournaments, the only tournaments actually effected will be the Dreamhacks. Some of the IEMs will become "Circuit" championships. This isn't going to be as much of a change as we're thinking.
Though the ones getting the worst hit are the B-teamers in Korea. You're not going to see many Solar runs when they're approaching being an A-teamer. But being a B-teamer has always been pretty terrible in Starcraft.
You are WRONG. You need to read it again. There are no Global Events.
There aren't any announced yet. And the rules have only been published for 2 days. This doesn't mean I think this is the best choice of action, but the Doom & Gloom is, currently, way overblown.
No, it is not overblown. Not at all. You are writing that IEM will be a Global Event. It will not. IEM announced, it will become WCS Welfare Circuit. DH as well. RB probably as well. There is no preexisting bigger event than IEMs were. So, it seems, none of the old preexisting events will be bigger than IEM and become WCS Global Event. It just does not exist.
I personally believe, somebody will pick it up and organize a global event. If there is none, I can imagine, Blizzard itself will organize a new event, without tradition, without history. One. If we are lucky.
I am so glad that TL did not "officially" jump on the "look how this is great for foreigners, all the posters disliking it are stupid negative spoiled brats" train. I understand that when you are playing the "journalist" impression, you don't want to sound outright negative, so the article is way too "balanced" for my taste, but I am glad that the negatives take the spotlight here. The lack of foreigner-Korean interaction is really what kills this whole concept.
Ultimate result is sadly going to be far far less tournaments with top koreans and far more with players worse then even Korean B teamers. The worst part will be that with reduced competition from not having to play koreans, I can only imagine the foreign scene will fall even further behind in skill. Ultimately I think I'll stick to late night Korean tournaments and will not be watching many IEMs or anything this year. I hope some global tournaments are set up, but I'm pessamistic
On December 19 2015 17:23 Taf the Ghost wrote: Reading the requirements for a "Global" Event, pretty much every IEM that has happened will work. The prizepool would need to be bigger, but given how much they cost to run, it doesn't seem a huge issue (especially if Blizzard is backing some of them).
They were unwilling/unable to have prize pools beyond 25k at all their SC2 events except for Katowice in the past. Why would they be willing to make events going to 50k plus with their own money (which is what Global Events require) when they can run Circuit events where they can rely on Blizzard funding?
IEM Taipei they already announced is gonna be an 8 Korean invitational with a 25k prize pool. Doesn't really leave hope for IEM events becoming Global.
The system we have now sends the 8 best foreigners to blizzcon. Who else could compete with koreans if not the top 8? That means if we have a foreigner who is able to compete with koreans we will still get to see these matches.
We want that people play on local servers but we are against a lock? People who have access to korean server have an edge over others. In regard to ladder incentive. You either set the number of wins very high which players achieve only if they ladder all the time or you set the number of required wins low which the best players will achieve in a short period of time. This means its either unfair to players who have to work and go to school or it forces worse player to ladder on na because they couldnt achieve the number of wins yet while the best players still ladder on korea/eu. We had both systems and from my point of view both have failed in certain aspects. Ladder lock makes sense because of region lock. We want to know the best of a region. With a ladder lock all players of a region have the opportunity to practise vs each other which wont happen if they can play on all servers. Also it will be unfair towards players who cant play on korean or on eu server.
On December 19 2015 14:03 lestye wrote: I think I'll overall have to disagree with the author. I don't think we were close to those epic stories in the last few years.
Ultimately it will have to depend on how many Global Tournaments there are.
I think the foreign region lock is needed, because it's so incredibly difficult to get exposure to be a pro foreign player. And I think that's been a problem for foreign players for quite some time now. I kinda get sad when I see the big esports orgs pick up players from much less established games, because they get so much value and exposure out of them, something they can't really do with Foreign SC2 players, (and buying up Korean ringers isn't useful either, there seems to be an expiration date on them where they'll inevitably get taken over)
I also disagree with the author that this will be worse for the scene. I'm sorry, but if you want to watch the best, ther is plenty of opportunity to do so. but there are other players who want to have a bit of the cake too (money). It is simply not worth it to be a sc2 pro if you can't get out of group stages in big tournaments. Slightly less tournaments in Korea is for the better, gives playerse more tim to prepare. We are actually oversaturated with tournaments.
You also cannot expect everybody to go to korea "if they want a chance to compete". There is always the top 10 percentil which you cannot reach.
The initial reports were shocking, the official WCS system announcement frustrating and the IEM announcement that they will become WCS Welfare tournament just nailed it.
I understand the happiness of foreign players, they will have more money for much less work. I just hate their celebrations. For us, viewers, it is bad. But we could get used to it. We are angry now, at the end, we might watch WCS Welfare anyway, there are still good players, good guys like Snute and you can't not cheer for them (unless Snute starts celebrating the system as well).
But here is the real CATASTROPHY, DOOM AND GLOOM. This system completely fucked up with the Korean players. Imagine, you are working hard all your life to become one of the best players in the world. You give to it everything, your effort, your skills, all your time, your life. And you are successful and pay it back to all worldwide fans through the enjoyment of your game. That was 2015. As a Korean pro, you have participated in the following events:
On December 19 2015 15:22 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra 2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans 3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN 4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN 5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol 6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG 7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy 8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt 9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark 10. GSL Season 1 11. SSL Season 1 12. GSL Season 2 13. SSL Season 2 14. GSL Season 3 15. SSL Season 3 16. Hot6ix Cup 17. Kespa Cup
It was a nice year. It was somehow balanced for the number of elite Korean pros. And now the new year, 2016. Where can you compete? The list is shorter: 1. GSL Season 1 2. SSL Season 1 3. GSL Season 2 4. SSL Season 2 5. Kespa Cup 6. HSC 7. One "Invitational" IEM closing the era of good IEMs + maybe Hot6ix Cup + maybe 1 "WCS Global Tournament"
This is for 12 months. If I were a Korean pro, I would be so pissed off. How the world fucked up with us ... This system wants to bring the foreigners' and Korean levels closer together. Not by improving the foreigners. But by damaging the Koreans. Less competitions. Less opportunities. Less players.
After reading it all and not liking the changes that much I'm still left wondering wether there will be tournament organizers (for example, BasetradeTV or even bigger names) that will choose to not hold a WCS event. That way they can still invite/qualify the Koreans to compete with foreigners, while not having to fullfill the requirements.
I sincerely hope so.
p.s. in all those Korean tournament lists, don't forget to include proleague. Not only gives it exposure to mid-tier Koreans, but those who're part of a team or organization will at least get a salary.
The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
I agree on that point and I m sure there ll be some upsets at blizzcon (possibly by you?)
The main problem I see is in Korea. With less tournaments to participate in, even moreso if you re not playing in Proleague, I think a lot of players will simply retire as there wont be enough room for every one.
On December 19 2015 19:38 Negius wrote: After reading it all and not liking the changes that much I'm still left wondering wether there will be tournament organizers (for example, BasetradeTV or even bigger names) that will choose to not hold a WCS event. That way they can still invite/qualify the Koreans to compete with foreigners, while not having to fullfill the requirements.
I sincerely hope so.
p.s. in all those Korean tournament lists, don't forget to include proleague. Not only gives it exposure to mid-tier Koreans, but those who're part of a team or organization will at least get a salary.
I know about Proleague, but the list was meant as the tournaments for individuals. Luckily, Proleague is still there.
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
You know, what will happen. You will get crushed by Hydra, Polt, MC, eventually a few B-level Koreans, who will manage to get the proper visa and win easy free welfare money.
I think, it would be better for you to have the same form of WCS2015 league, not open to Koreans at all (= no hydra, no polt ...)
On December 19 2015 19:38 Negius wrote: After reading it all and not liking the changes that much I'm still left wondering wether there will be tournament organizers (for example, BasetradeTV or even bigger names) that will choose to not hold a WCS event. That way they can still invite/qualify the Koreans to compete with foreigners, while not having to fullfill the requirements.
I sincerely hope so.
p.s. in all those Korean tournament lists, don't forget to include proleague. Not only gives it exposure to mid-tier Koreans, but those who're part of a team or organization will at least get a salary.
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
Yes, I'm sure herO vs Petraeus will be so hype and unpredictable.
Besides, why would foreigners be more able to put up a fight than in HotS? Infrastucture hasn't changed at all (except for the Mill house which will gain a bit in importance I guess), foreign ladders will be devoid of any Koreans besides Polt/Hydra/JD, the game is as demanding, if not more, as HotS, and there are no more Koreans in foreign teams who could occasionnaly help foreign teammates to train.
Do you expect that a few additional dollars and some more articles on TL about a foreign player will somehow increase his skill level to a Korean's, who is training in a perfect environment with the best of the best everyday?
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
The main problem I see is in Korea. With less tournaments to participate in, even moreso if you re not playing in Proleague, I think a lot of players will simply retire as there wont be enough room for every one.
This is actually a big deal. Even if Proleague was changed to BO7 for every series, there's going to be players who a) almost never see play, b) aren't allowed to play Proleague as it stands right now, and c) can't qualify for stuff because Korean qualifiers continue to be more stacked than any tournament outside of Korea and the amount of accessible events is reduced.
In the scene with the highest concentration of good players, there's not much incentive to become a pro these days it looks like.
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
Yes, I'm sure herO vs Petraeus will be so hype and unpredictable.
Besides, why would foreigners be more able to put up a fight than in HotS? Infrastucture hasn't changed at all (except for the Mill house which will gain a bit in importance I guess), foreign ladders will be devoid of any Koreans besides Polt/Hydra/JD, the game is as demanding, if not more, as HotS, and there are no more Koreans in foreign teams who could occasionnaly help foreign teammates to train.
Do you expect that a few additional dollars and some more articles on TL about a foreign player will somehow increase his skill level to a Korean's, who is training in a perfect environment with the best of the best everyday?
he means a fight for which bo5 will be the quickest. Dethroning lilbow won't be easy but it can happen.
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
The main problem I see is in Korea. With less tournaments to participate in, even moreso if you re not playing in Proleague, I think a lot of players will simply retire as there wont be enough room for every one.
This is actually a big deal. Even if Proleague was changed to BO7 for every series, there's going to be players who a) almost never see play, b) aren't allowed to play Proleague as it stands right now, and c) can't qualify for stuff because Korean qualifiers continue to be more stacked than any tournament outside of Korea and the amount of accessible events is reduced.
In the scene with the highest concentration of good players, there's not much incentive to become a pro these days it looks like.
These news are new for us, I can imagine, this direction was well known among the Korean teams already a few weeks ago, so it might be related to the wave of retirements and leaving for army in Korea. The number of good players is just too small for the new number of competitions.
On December 19 2015 13:39 ShambhalaWar wrote: Great article, and well written.
I think I agree with all your points. IMO something about the new system feels off to me, I couldn't quite put it into words, but I feel as though you said it well.
Lilbow making it into blizzcon by the skin of his teeth, was amazing to watch in 2015. I really admired his spirit and making the seemingly impossible possible.
I don't think story lines like that can happen in the 2016 system, but yes it allows for more foreigners at blizzcon. Foreigners making a career seem much more viable as well.
I think maybe I will disagree in that I think the system of 2015 really did (for the most part) make blizzcon a tournament of the best players in the world. That is my belief.
One thing I am sure of, is that I will not be able to say the same thing for the blizzcon of 2016.
Why? most likely the first round will be played a week before Blizzcon. And since the skill gap will increase (-> I don't think there has ever been an example in the history of sports, where lack of competition resulted in an increase in skill), we'll just have 8 stomps 1 week before Blizzcon and Blizzcon is still going to be Korean only.
This affects NA/CN/SEA the most. NA server is bad, mostly because NA players on the West Coast can play a decent amount on the KR server to raise their skill and then play on the NA server to get some practice at ladder conditions. Players on the East Coast can do the same thing, but play on EU instead of KR. At the same time CN/SEA players can play on KR to help their practice. That clause directly forces those players to play on their own ladder, which is worse than Korea. The fastest way to improve as a player is to constantly play against better players over and over and Korea has by far the most depth of any server—that’s inarguable. It’s a great tool for anyone to practice on and one of the reasons as to why Koreans are always so sharp. With the lock down, players that had access to such a tool will naturally devolve.
The players only need to have 100 ladder wins per month in their home regio which isn't much for a progamer so they can still regularly play on KR server
On December 19 2015 20:26 Penev wrote: So we need to know how many Global event 's there will be ASAP to rate this new system.
You know it. There was only one tournament big enough to be able to host something like this. IEM. At least, IEM World Championship in Katowice. And they are celebrating, that it has become the WCS Circuit Winter thing ...
On December 19 2015 20:26 Penev wrote: So we need to know how many Global event 's there will be ASAP to rate this new system.
You know it. There was only one tournament big enough to be able to host something like this. IEM. At least, IEM World Championship in Katowice. And they are celebrating, that it has become the WCS Circuit Winter thing ...
Well, we can still hope that DreamHack isn't part of this. And considering the fact that DH:Winter can't possibly be a WCS Circuit Event (-> It normally takes place after Blizzcon), we might still see good DreamHack events after IEM is gone for good. I mean, I don't need WCS Global Events, they are useless as they are. I just need 'non-WCS Circuit'-events. I don't care if they are WCS Global or non-WCS.
On December 19 2015 20:26 Penev wrote: So we need to know how many Global event 's there will be ASAP to rate this new system.
You know it. There was only one tournament big enough to be able to host something like this. IEM. At least, IEM World Championship in Katowice. And they are celebrating, that it has become the WCS Circuit Winter thing ...
Well, we can still hope that DreamHack isn't part of this. And considering the fact that DH:Winter can't possibly be a WCS Circuit Event (-> It normally takes place after Blizzcon), we might still see good DreamHack events after IEM is gone for good. I mean, I don't need WCS Global Events, they are useless as they are. I just need 'non-WCS Circuit'-events. I don't care if they are WCS Global or non-WCS.
They explicitly mentioned DreamHack as one of their most important WCS partners in the announcement.
On December 19 2015 20:26 Penev wrote: So we need to know how many Global event 's there will be ASAP to rate this new system.
You know it. There was only one tournament big enough to be able to host something like this. IEM. At least, IEM World Championship in Katowice. And they are celebrating, that it has become the WCS Circuit Winter thing ...
Well, we can still hope that DreamHack isn't part of this. And considering the fact that DH:Winter can't possibly be a WCS Circuit Event (-> It normally takes place after Blizzcon), we might still see good DreamHack events after IEM is gone for good. I mean, I don't need WCS Global Events, they are useless as they are. I just need 'non-WCS Circuit'-events. I don't care if they are WCS Global or non-WCS.
DreamHack is part of that as well. That was clear from some posts already before IEM. DreamHack is WCS Circuit.
The only chance is to have some kind of Gfinity invitational (but let us be honest, the production was not comparable with the profesionality of IEM) or MSI ... But even MSI did not care that much for SC2, so if they can get support from Blizzard, I am sure, they will also sell their sole.
The only thing is Homestory cup, but also that is not the real big Korean-foreigner tournament. That is just pure fun and it should stay so.
That is somehow similar to banning let us say New Zealand and Australia from international rugby competitions. Saying: "You are too good. We want to be as good as you and we can reach that only if you do not play against us and take all the prize money. Wait four years for the world cup, you can play there, but until then, you can just play friendly matches against each other. We do not want you!"
By the way, I did not see any reaction to this system from Korea yet. From Kespa, from players ... Yesterday, I saw some strange celebration with Michael Morhaime giving some cash money to CJ herO for winning the preliminary GSL tournament. I am sure, Blizzard has to negotiate heavily in Korea these days to stop all eventual negative reactions from Korean teams, eventually some negative actions ...
I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway.
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL.
On December 19 2015 21:02 p4ch1n0 wrote: Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway.
Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic.
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL.
I really hope, IEM will invite sOs to the final ceremony of Korean SC2 abroad = Taipei invitational. Because that will be his last chance to compete abroad.
So Blizzard's partners in this, DH, IEM and RB should each organize a global event to make sure we have at least 4 Korea - world clashes. Maybe Afreeca and SpotTV can jump in..
On December 19 2015 19:38 Negius wrote: After reading it all and not liking the changes that much I'm still left wondering wether there will be tournament organizers (for example, BasetradeTV or even bigger names) that will choose to not hold a WCS event. That way they can still invite/qualify the Koreans to compete with foreigners, while not having to fullfill the requirements.
I sincerely hope so.
p.s. in all those Korean tournament lists, don't forget to include proleague. Not only gives it exposure to mid-tier Koreans, but those who're part of a team or organization will at least get a salary.
Luckily, Proleague is still there.
OR IS IT
just kidding of course there's gonna be proleague
I REALLY would want to hear something about it by now though. And if there's going to be an 8th team..
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Why should the play in GSL? There's free money around the globe and an insanely high level competition in GSL/SSL. You'd have to be really stupid to play in GSL/SSL.
On December 19 2015 21:02 p4ch1n0 wrote: Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway.
Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic.
The authors argument is "there will never be a foreigner as great as the ones in the past because they don't have the chance to beat Koreans anymore". My point is that this statement is wrong. Yes it would be extremely difficult to compete in GSL, but it IS still POSSIBLE. So the argument "there will never be someone as great as Stephano because foreigners don't get the chance to play vs Koreans anymore" simply isn't true. And the argument "well no foreigner in his right mind will play in GSL because it is too hard" is simply flawed. You cant say foreigners don't get the chance to be as great as past legends anymore just because it would be extremely hard to do so.
To your other question: "Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'?" Competition is certainly the main driver in getting better and increasing your skill. But if competition is so hard that you cant realistically expect to make a living as pro gamer you wont do it. So if this system allows you to support yourself and therefore allows more players to actually TRY to be a pro i think that is beneficial. Imagine Stephano would never have played the game because he thought "oh i don't have a chance in winning anyway, the competition is too strong" do you think that would have been good for the scene? Maybe there are a lot more Stephanos out there just not willing to risk their livelihood right now because the current situation was just way too bleak for non Koreans.
If Blizzard wanted to really support the foreigner's attendance at BlizzCon, they should make it mandatory for Koreans in the RO16 group stage not to use keyboards. They should do all their actions using mouse only. Then, the matches could be reasonable and balanced and some foreigners could actually make it even to the RO8.
On December 19 2015 19:38 Negius wrote: After reading it all and not liking the changes that much I'm still left wondering wether there will be tournament organizers (for example, BasetradeTV or even bigger names) that will choose to not hold a WCS event. That way they can still invite/qualify the Koreans to compete with foreigners, while not having to fullfill the requirements.
I sincerely hope so.
p.s. in all those Korean tournament lists, don't forget to include proleague. Not only gives it exposure to mid-tier Koreans, but those who're part of a team or organization will at least get a salary.
Luckily, Proleague is still there.
OR IS IT
just kidding of course there's gonna be proleague
I REALLY would want to hear something about it by now though. And if there's going to be an 8th team..
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic.
If you throw in a bronze player into GM they will lose 100 games in a row, see that they don't have a chance and quit the game. But if you let them play vs opponents who are around the same skill as them, they will practice and maybe get to GM level one day. But I don't really know if this anology aplies to pro players.
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic.
If you throw in a bronze player into GM they will lose 100 games in a row, see that they don't have a chance and quit the game. But if you let them play vs opponents who are around the same skill as them, they will practice and maybe get to GM level one day. But I don't really know if this anology aplies to pro players.
Let's call it the 'Lilbow-effect'. Blizzcon is still going to be unwinnable for a foreigner, so why should they bother to prepare for the only tournament, where they face real competition? The rest of the year gives them more money than they can ever make at Blizzcon anyway, therefore it's not really worth the effort.
If you give a local tennis player the same amount of money for some low level tournaments as they'd get in the really big tournaments I doubt they'd care about the international tournaments that much.
Exactly, and that's probably the greatest advantage of that system. It gets easier for foreigners to win money. If you want a scene to grow you need to give ppl an incentive to actually wanna play and try. If lesser know players find it unlikely that they could ever win something and support themselves playing a game, they wont try. So increasing the chances for them to win is exactly what you want to do. In the short run skill level might suffer, but in the long run this system might lead to more foreigners trying to become pro. A lager pool of players (and therefore possible "Stephanos") will lead to finding the next Stephano much faster then a smaller pool of players.
Besides just look at the facts. We had a system in which foreigners could compete with Koreans for pretty much all of Starcraft. It lead to the steady decline of the foreign scene. At some point Blizzard even saw the need to come up with some sort of region lock. In theory i'd agree with your point that stronger competition leads to higher skill, but reality in SCII does not support that statement. It seems that competition has been so hard that most foreigners were discouraged to play the game in the first place.
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Of course they are allowed to participate in GSL, but let's be honest here, most of them wouldn't even be able to get out of Code B, let alone move from Code A to Code S.
On December 19 2015 21:02 p4ch1n0 wrote: Maybe this system will make the foreigners practice harder? I think it was very demoralizing for foreigners to practice their heart out to maybe get to the ro8 but then be beaten by a korean anyway.
they wont practice harder or better or anything like that. things will remain the same for foreigners. people like tlo wont get better by these changes...
On December 19 2015 21:02 Swisslink wrote: Again: Why should they? Why on earth should 'no competition' result in 'harder practice'? The opposite is way more realistic.
If you throw in a bronze player into GM they will lose 100 games in a row, see that they don't have a chance and quit the game. But if you let them play vs opponents who are around the same skill as them, they will practice and maybe get to GM level one day. But I don't really know if this anology aplies to pro players.
Let's call it the 'Lilbow-effect'. Blizzcon is still going to be unwinnable for a foreigner, so why should they bother to prepare for the only tournament, where they face real competition? The rest of the year gives them more money than they can ever make at Blizzcon anyway, therefore it's not really worth the effort.
If you give a local tennis player the same amount of money for some low level tournaments as they'd get in the really big tournaments I doubt they'd care about the international tournaments that much.
You just supported my point. Lilbow didn't practice because he knew he doesn't have a chance. If he would have had a decent chance he would have practiced and gotten better. Even if foreigners don't practice for the global competition there are enough circuit events to practice for. And since every pro foreigner has a chance to win and the pricepool is very high they will practice a lot.
Pretty much agreed with everything the article says. There's no point watching IEM or Dreamhack now. Perhaps I will watch LoL out of spite.
On December 19 2015 22:17 p4ch1n0 wrote:You just supported my point. Lilbow didn't practice because he knew he doesn't have a chance. If he would have had a decent chance he would have practiced and gotten better. Even if foreigners don't practice for the global competition there are enough circuit events to practice for. And since every pro foreigner has a chance to win and the pricepool is very high they will practice a lot.
Since none of them will now have a chance at Blizzcon, they won't practice to be good enough for that level. They will only practice enough to beat other non-Koreans. In this way, the skill gap widens. Instead of seeing 1 Lilbow, we will see 8.
On December 19 2015 14:03 lestye wrote: I think I'll overall have to disagree with the author. I don't think we were close to those epic stories in the last few years.
Ultimately it will have to depend on how many Global Tournaments there are.
I think the foreign region lock is needed, because it's so incredibly difficult to get exposure to be a pro foreign player. And I think that's been a problem for foreign players for quite some time now. I kinda get sad when I see the big esports orgs pick up players from much less established games, because they get so much value and exposure out of them, something they can't really do with Foreign SC2 players, (and buying up Korean ringers isn't useful either, there seems to be an expiration date on them where they'll inevitably get taken over)
I also disagree with the author that this will be worse for the scene. I'm sorry, but if you want to watch the best, ther is plenty of opportunity to do so. but there are other players who want to have a bit of the cake too (money). It is simply not worth it to be a sc2 pro if you can't get out of group stages in big tournaments. Slightly less tournaments in Korea is for the better, gives playerse more tim to prepare. We are actually oversaturated with tournaments.
You also cannot expect everybody to go to korea "if they want a chance to compete". There is always the top 10 percentil which you cannot reach.
Why should I care about Starcraft players who 1) Can't compete with the best 2) Don't want to compete with the best 3) Tell me about 1 and 2 with a straight face. I've seen enough "region locking" in Russian football and hockey to know that it doesn't increase player quality or entertainment.
And one thing I am certain in is that you can't reach top 10% if you don't try.
All this new system does is to promote laziness. There is no reason for any foreign player to feel the need to improve their game when they know they will just play vs other foreigners and compete for even bigger money than before.
I feel terrible for the majority of KR pros, they got shafted pretty hard.
On December 19 2015 14:03 lestye wrote: I think I'll overall have to disagree with the author. I don't think we were close to those epic stories in the last few years.
Ultimately it will have to depend on how many Global Tournaments there are.
I think the foreign region lock is needed, because it's so incredibly difficult to get exposure to be a pro foreign player. And I think that's been a problem for foreign players for quite some time now. I kinda get sad when I see the big esports orgs pick up players from much less established games, because they get so much value and exposure out of them, something they can't really do with Foreign SC2 players, (and buying up Korean ringers isn't useful either, there seems to be an expiration date on them where they'll inevitably get taken over)
I also disagree with the author that this will be worse for the scene. I'm sorry, but if you want to watch the best, ther is plenty of opportunity to do so. but there are other players who want to have a bit of the cake too (money). It is simply not worth it to be a sc2 pro if you can't get out of group stages in big tournaments. Slightly less tournaments in Korea is for the better, gives playerse more tim to prepare. We are actually oversaturated with tournaments.
You also cannot expect everybody to go to korea "if they want a chance to compete". There is always the top 10 percentil which you cannot reach.
Why should I care about Starcraft players who 1) Can't compete with the best 2) Don't want to compete with the best 3) Tell me about 1 and 2 with a straight face. I've seen enough "region locking" in Russian football and hockey to know that it doesn't increase player quality or entertainment.
And one thing I am certain in is that you can't reach top 10% if you don't try.
Why do you think the world is about what you want? Or that you represent the majority opinion? And I think you didn't get the point. I don't think its about making foreigners better, i think more than anything this is about reviving the foreign scene. I mean come on, name ten foreigners that can continuously compete with Koreans. Hell, name even five... You cant increase the skill in something that isn't there in the first place...
On December 19 2015 22:17 achan1058 wrote: Pretty much agreed with everything the article says. There's no point watching IEM or Dreamhack now. Perhaps I will watch LoL out of spite.
On December 19 2015 22:17 p4ch1n0 wrote:You just supported my point. Lilbow didn't practice because he knew he doesn't have a chance. If he would have had a decent chance he would have practiced and gotten better. Even if foreigners don't practice for the global competition there are enough circuit events to practice for. And since every pro foreigner has a chance to win and the pricepool is very high they will practice a lot.
Since none of them will now have a chance at Blizzcon, they won't practice to be good enough for that level. They will only practice enough to beat other non-Koreans. In this way, the skill gap widens. Instead of seeing 1 Lilbow, we will see 8.
Pretty much this. I don't know if the expression exists in English, but 'A good horse jumps no higher than it has to.' - and in Europe/NA, the horse won't have to jump very high. The new system rewards and gloryfies mediocrity.
I really don't agree. We'll meet Koreans less often and be reminded less about Korean dominance, this could give us the dellusion that we actually have a shot, which is a good thing for the hype. It's not about desperately trying to catch up with the Koreans, it's moreso about giving the foreign scene a chance to grow, because people feel that if they put in their all they CAN win.
On December 19 2015 23:12 ejozl wrote: It's not about desperately trying to catch up with the Koreans, it's moreso about giving the foreign scene a chance to grow
At the same time it inhibits the growth of the Korean scene by offering them less events to play in.
On December 19 2015 23:12 ejozl wrote: I really don't agree. We'll meet Koreans less often and be reminded less about Korean dominance, this could give us the dellusion that we actually have a shot, which is a good thing for the hype. It's not about desperately trying to catch up with the Koreans, it's moreso about giving the foreign scene a chance to grow, because people feel that if they put in their all they CAN win.
Until the skill gap is so wide that even NA/EU archons look less impressive than a single Korean player. At that point, I don't think a game needs to be played at all to kill any hype that there could be.
I think this is a good discussion, and I am personally a bit torn regarding what is best for the foreign scene. Yes, it is good to for the foreign scene if you inject more money in it, and yes it is good if top foreigners frequently get to test themselves against (mid-top) Koreans. But it seems like Blizzard is struggling to find a system that does both.
Maybe we can improve the discussion further if the people that don't like this new system can suggest another way? Do you want to go back to the way it was before? The downside of opening up tournaments too much is that very little price money goes to foreigners, so there is little incentive for foreigners to get to the very top and earn big price money as it is close to impossible for them. Instead people earn money through streaming or team contracts and sponsors, none of which requires you to be the very best, just good enough to make an appearance.
So all in all, I'd like to find a system that gives good training conditions to the foreigner (and narratives I guess...) through regularly being matched with Koreans, but still have a realistic incentive to be the very best they can be. Koreans welcome, but part of the price pool reserved for players with X games on the local server or something?
Otherwise "mixed" team leagues with at most 2 out of 4 Korean players in each team maybe can achieve that? Foreigners would be matched both against other top foreigner and Koreans, and the team/player has a real incentive to get the foreigners to maximise the chance to win against the Koreans, even if it is just a matter of going from 15% to 20%, as every map counts in most team league formats. Maybe even more importantly, the foreigner would get some training time with their Korean team mates.
Many great Korean players and future great Koreans will never have their chance because of this system. This is a great shame and makes this formerly great eSport into a mockery of what it was.
However, for those that think that this will bring an era of prosperity for the foreign scene is fooling themselves. Koreans will win in more dominating fashion than ever and foreigners are going to stagnate more than they already have this year. Nothing about the balance of power is going to change, it will become wider if anything.
You can call it anything you'd like, the fact is that these policies are specifically targeting a single ethnicity and racist as hell.
I said it in the announcement thread and I'll say it here, if the Ro16 at Blizzcon is the 8 Koreans vs the 8 Foreigners with this system it'll make Lilbow-Life at this years Blizzcon look like the fucking GSL Finals
This affects NA/CN/SEA the most. NA server is bad, mostly because NA players on the West Coast can play a decent amount on the KR server to raise their skill and then play on the NA server to get some practice at ladder conditions. Players on the East Coast can do the same thing, but play on EU instead of KR. At the same time CN/SEA players can play on KR to help their practice. That clause directly forces those players to play on their own ladder, which is worse than Korea. The fastest way to improve as a player is to constantly play against better players over and over and Korea has by far the most depth of any server—that’s inarguable. It’s a great tool for anyone to practice on and one of the reasons as to why Koreans are always so sharp. With the lock down, players that had access to such a tool will naturally devolve.
The players only need to have 100 ladder wins per month in their home regio which isn't much for a progamer so they can still regularly play on KR server
Not only that, but the requirement is only for non-citizens of the region. Citizens of the region don't have any ladder requirement. NA players can continue playing 100% of their ladder games on Asia.
The rule works oppositely as to how the article argues, as far as I can tell. Non-citizens joining the region are forced to improve the local ladder by playing some games on it. Imported talent is forced to contribute to the local scene while the local scene can continue to do whatever they feel is best for themselves.
I would have tried to obtain some more information on what a server qualifier is (see here) because that could be relevant to the topic. The only way servers can currently rank people is with the ladder so I think the assumption is that nearly half the spots at each Circuit Championship will be determined by ladder. We'll see. No one is answering yet about what a server qualifier is.
On December 19 2015 14:03 lestye wrote: I think I'll overall have to disagree with the author. I don't think we were close to those epic stories in the last few years.
Ultimately it will have to depend on how many Global Tournaments there are.
I think the foreign region lock is needed, because it's so incredibly difficult to get exposure to be a pro foreign player. And I think that's been a problem for foreign players for quite some time now. I kinda get sad when I see the big esports orgs pick up players from much less established games, because they get so much value and exposure out of them, something they can't really do with Foreign SC2 players, (and buying up Korean ringers isn't useful either, there seems to be an expiration date on them where they'll inevitably get taken over)
I also disagree with the author that this will be worse for the scene. I'm sorry, but if you want to watch the best, ther is plenty of opportunity to do so. but there are other players who want to have a bit of the cake too (money). It is simply not worth it to be a sc2 pro if you can't get out of group stages in big tournaments. Slightly less tournaments in Korea is for the better, gives playerse more tim to prepare. We are actually oversaturated with tournaments.
You also cannot expect everybody to go to korea "if they want a chance to compete". There is always the top 10 percentil which you cannot reach.
Why should I care about Starcraft players who 1) Can't compete with the best 2) Don't want to compete with the best 3) Tell me about 1 and 2 with a straight face. I've seen enough "region locking" in Russian football and hockey to know that it doesn't increase player quality or entertainment.
And one thing I am certain in is that you can't reach top 10% if you don't try.
Why do you think the world is about what you want? Or that you represent the majority opinion? And I think you didn't get the point. I don't think its about making foreigners better, i think more than anything this is about reviving the foreign scene. I mean come on, name ten foreigners that can continuously compete with Koreans. Hell, name even five... You cant increase the skill in something that isn't there in the first place...
SC2 progaming is about what I want because I am a viewer. Blizzard isn't a charity and when viewership goes down too much, foreign scene will die because it is unsustainable without Blizzard's money. I don't care if I represent the majority, I'm stating my opinion. And judging by TL forums, at least I'm not the only one who shares it.
Korean players are not inherently better. Their infrastructure is better. If Blizzard cared about long-term development of foreign scene, they could help teams that organize teamhouses and hire coaches. There are multiple ways to do it starting from direct sponsorship to preferential treatment in WCS tournaments to whatever else. Instead they are going all-in on "local support". I've made my choice last year when I decided to skip most of WCS Seasons 1-3. What is your choice?
On December 19 2015 22:29 DwD wrote: All this new system does is to promote laziness. There is no reason for any foreign player to feel the need to improve their game when they know they will just play vs other foreigners and compete for even bigger money than before.
Same thing can be said about Koreans. There is no reason for Koreans to improve, since they will just play against other Koreans.
While I agree with the article I have to wonder what the best format would be to foster the foreigner narrative (or whatever you want to call it). The number of great foreigner achievements happening have basically dwindled to a few per year so I think it's safe to say that the current system wasn't working in that regard (though I still thought 2015 was great but for other reasons).
My opinion strongly differs regarding the last part.
Idra vs Jinro, Idra vs HuK, HuK vs NaNiwa, NaNiwa vs ThorZaIN, Stephano vs Korea, Stephano vs Polt, Scarlett vs Bomber, Snute vs herO, Snute vs SSL/GSL Champions, Nerchio vs MaNa, NaNiwa vs NesTea.
The first half of those are foreigner vs foreigner... Another big chunk are pre-kespa moving to sc2. Many have also been over for a long time too. With the increase of foreigner (only) events I expect to be treated to more "top foreigner A vs top foreigner X". The new stories/rivalries that could be created with WCS circuit could trump many of the ones we've experienced before!
Now.. I do have a suggestion that would probably appease quite a few people. Split the money in a much more KR heavy fashion. 75/25 maybe? Make it actually appealing for foreigners to fight in Seoul for a *SL ro16 vs a circuit win.
Then again, maybe more money to be won will allow foreigners to dedicate more resources to hardcore training (teams, coaches, training houses etc). We'll see...
Great article and I agree with pretty much everything. Quite sad about this new system but we'll see what happens. I'm expecting even more Koreans to retire now.
IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Nobody is complaining about any inability to watch top Korean players in the GSL, SSL, and Proleague. Some people are, however, complaining about the reduced quantity, not complete dearth, of GSL and SSL, with 2 seasons of each compared to last year's 3, a considerably inferior format for the SSL, and the effective barring of Korean players from participating in many international events such as the IEM and DH tournaments.
I must personally say that while I agree with the need for foreigners to have their own tournament ecosystem, I believe that it is best to focus most effort on promoting SC2 in Korea, because only a revitalised, healthy, stable, and popular SC scene there will ensure SC2 remains 'aliev gaem' in the long term
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
Are you referring to the motivation of a foreigner to practice for blizzcon?
Maybe with 8 of them next year one will prepare for it.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
Are you referring to the motivation of a foreigner to practice for blizzcon?
Maybe with 8 of them next year one will prepare for it.
Or we will have them go full Lilbow. Unless Blizzcon offers a disproportionate amount of money to ensure that they practice.
On December 19 2015 22:29 DwD wrote: All this new system does is to promote laziness. There is no reason for any foreign player to feel the need to improve their game when they know they will just play vs other foreigners and compete for even bigger money than before.
Same thing can be said about Koreans. There is no reason for Koreans to improve, since they will just play against other Koreans.
How does this even make sense? The Koreans are highest level there atm. Mid to high tier Koreans WILL HAVE to get better so they can compete with the very best Koreans which are the best players in the world. The top Koreans will at least maintain their level so the others do not overtake their place
I only watch Koreans play anyway, I am pretty happy there are less tournaments overall as it means the GSL champion gets to be the champion for a longer time and it helps build that prestige.
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
Yes, I'm sure herO vs Petraeus will be so hype and unpredictable.
Besides, why would foreigners be more able to put up a fight than in HotS? Infrastucture hasn't changed at all (except for the Mill house which will gain a bit in importance I guess), foreign ladders will be devoid of any Koreans besides Polt/Hydra/JD, the game is as demanding, if not more, as HotS, and there are no more Koreans in foreign teams who could occasionnaly help foreign teammates to train.
Do you expect that a few additional dollars and some more articles on TL about a foreign player will somehow increase his skill level to a Korean's, who is training in a perfect environment with the best of the best everyday?
he means a fight for which bo5 will be the quickest. Dethroning lilbow won't be easy but it can happen.
Naniwa is still n°1 :p
And something that helps to understand what's going on: DH/ESL are owned by the same company. Don't expect a lot of them, they're clearly backing out and it's demonstrated by ESL employees on twitter mocking everyone sad about the 1/3 less korean content.
On December 19 2015 20:59 looken wrote: I don't really agree with your statement "foreigners don't get the chance to compete with the best anymore". Maybe I misunderstood, but doesn't it say foreigners CAN compete in the GSL if they want to? So if you actually WANT to be the best its is pretty easy to prove it. Just play in GSL. I doubt any foreigner will do so, but the chance is still there.
Of course they are allowed to participate in GSL, but let's be honest here, most of them wouldn't even be able to get out of Code B, let alone move from Code A to Code S.
If anything they should bring back the code s/a/b system for korea. Each one getting a champion per season like back in the day. Code b open to all and played online only. Stream and cast all leagues. We need to see more of the less exposed players in korea again. Especially if you're gonna keep everyone separated.
On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote: They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
Can you prove, that a majority of up and coming players' motivation is to beat a Korean? I believe that lesser skilled regions need to grow within themselves first, then be put in one place letting them compete on equal terms with people from a talent-breeding environment that exists for over 10 years. And it did not appear ever outside of Korea, even with the western excitement about the idea of progaming. Only short-term sponsor-driven money-making emulations of it appeared and went away quickly.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
I wanted to ridicule the argument of not being able to see more Korean matches within WCS system. It's not a proposition. I followed simple, non-realistic logic - if you could scrap all that travel to studios and venue organization, you could have much more money and time to produce more online tournaments with bigger prize pool. More time = more matches = more Korean play. Similar type of unreasonable logic as some arguments I keep reading over and over.
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
I'm able to see over what is now and what will come after most of current players retire. I still believe that foreigners will never be able to beat Koreans, if they won't have local support instead of Koreans coming over who train in their own environment. And sorry for possibly insulting you with this "purist" thing, I didn't mean that.
I love "Korean" StarCraft. I also want non-Koreans to be successful, to possibly have the infrastructure they need. And this system is a chance. After all, the infrastructure, teams and all were a dream everyone had since they've seen what Korea has. And a lot more region-limited tournaments, which are for players not to practice, but to practice for can be only a good thing long-term. Did you spit with disgust on long-gone regional WCG qualifiers in Brood War? Were they a disgrace? A "WCG Welfare"? It was a bad move by Blizzard and organizers to let Korean dominate everything right away, now people are sad because of them getting less opportunity. I understand that. But guess what, most of SC2 players are not Korean.
I'm sad about seeing so much negativity towards non-Koreans. You cannot cater for everyone though.
On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote: They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
Can you prove, that a majority of up and coming players' motivation is to beat a Korean?
It's obviously hard to prove anyone's motivations, but it should be their motivation to become the best. And even being the best foreigner implies being able to tango with skilled Koreans.
Obviously there's merit to building up a foreign scene but they could have maybe tried doing it without actively hurting the Korean scene by not only barring them from most non-Korean events but also reducing the amount of Korean events. With this system, if you're an amateur in Korea who has the dream of becoming a progamer, what is your perspective? Only if you're really, really good can you actually pursue this dream. Unless you're offered to join one of the 7 KeSPA teams you'll never become anyone anymore. The perspective for up and coming foreigners is much better.
On December 20 2015 03:28 EatingBomber wrote: They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
Can you prove, that a majority of up and coming players' motivation is to beat a Korean?
It's obviously hard to prove anyone's motivations, but it should be their motivation to become the best. And even being the best foreigner implies being able to tango with skilled Koreans.
Obviously there's merit to building up a foreign scene but they could have maybe tried doing it without actively hurting the Korean scene by not only barring them from most non-Korean events but also reducing the amount of Korean events. With this system, if you're an amateur in Korea who has the dream of becoming a progamer, what is your perspective? Only if you're really, really good can you actually pursue this dream. Unless you're offered to join one of the 7 KeSPA teams you'll never become anyone anymore. The perspective for up and coming foreigners is much better.
I'm quite sad myself because of simplified SSL and one less season of GSL and SSL. I have hopes for the future though, we haven't heard all the details of what Korean tournament structure (their cups and other local events) will look like.
I disagree with opinion that Korean situation should block most of non-Koreans' chances to compete on professional level.
0. I love seeing foreigners play. I also think that Blizzard is making a huge bet with LoTV and this announcement: they've done a huge amount to make LoTV more micro-oriented, and I think they believe this will favor foreigners and shift the balance towards parity. Evidence: I just watched Serral in NW3 take down 3 Koreans in a row, and he almost beat Inno twice. I know this opinion is controversial, just a thought.
1. It was always weird to me that there wasn't a longer off-season for starcraft. No other sport is like this.
2. If this means a 1-2 month break in between SSL/GSLs, that will make me happy. I get serious starcraft fatigue by May/June.
3. Yes, we don't know all the details yet, but I still think these changes will mean stronger Korean presence in the Global Events. (Why do people keep saying there won't be any? Just because of the IEM announcements? Seriously, these changes have been out 2 days, give the organizers time to at least enjoy the holidays before they get around to laying out for us the entire next year's plans on a silver platter).
On December 20 2015 04:52 happyGo wrote: This was a good, fair article, but I disagree:
0. I love seeing foreigners play. I also think that Blizzard is making a huge bet with LoTV and this announcement: they've done a huge amount to make LoTV more micro-oriented, and I think they believe this will favor foreigners and shift the balance towards parity. Evidence: I just watched Serral in NW3 take down 3 Koreans in a row, and he almost beat Inno twice. I know this opinion is controversial, just a thought.
1. It was always weird to me that there wasn't a longer off-season for starcraft. No other sport is like this.
2. If this means a 1-2 month break in between SSL/GSLs, that will make me happy. I get serious starcraft fatigue by May/June.
3. Yes, we don't know all the details yet, but I still think these changes will mean stronger Korean presence in the Global Events. (Why do people keep saying there won't be any? Just because of the IEM announcements? Seriously, these changes have been out 2 days, give the organizers time to at least enjoy the holidays before they get around to laying out for us the entire next year's plans on a silver platter).
People are saying there won't be Global Events because organisers have to create a 50,000$+ prize pool on their own. Events with prize pools like that didn't happen very often in the past (beyond the ones organised by Blizzard), why would they now (some sponsors who did events that big in the past are gone from the scene entirely)? Especially since you can just make a Circuit event (aka foreigners + Koreans with visa only) and ask Blizzard to support it financially. Way easier than getting money for a Global Event. Especially since the interest wasn't that high and the prize pools were already declining. DH Winter this year, new game and foreigners and all, had a way smaller prize pool than last year.
On December 20 2015 04:52 happyGo wrote: This was a good, fair article, but I disagree:
0. I love seeing foreigners play. I also think that Blizzard is making a huge bet with LoTV and this announcement: they've done a huge amount to make LoTV more micro-oriented, and I think they believe this will favor foreigners and shift the balance towards parity. Evidence: I just watched Serral in NW3 take down 3 Koreans in a row, and he almost beat Inno twice. I know this opinion is controversial, just a thought.
There's no motivation for a Foreign player to improve if he doesn't have to face Inno more than 3-4 times a year (IF we're lucky, I'll address that later). I'm all for creating a foreign scene, but you don't strengthen the scene as a whole by killing off the one strong scene you have, which is what will happen with these changes, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but before the year is out it will happen
2. If this means a 1-2 month break in between SSL/GSLs, that will make me happy. I get serious starcraft fatigue by May/June.
That's your opinion, but with that 1-2 month gap there has to be something for Koreans to do otherwise they lose any way of support themselves, if you're a regular in Proleague, great but the B teamers and those not on KeSPA teams are fucked.
3. Yes, we don't know all the details yet, but I still think these changes will mean stronger Korean presence in the Global Events. (Why do people keep saying there won't be any? Just because of the IEM announcements? Seriously, these changes have been out 2 days, give the organizers time to at least enjoy the holidays before they get around to laying out for us the entire next year's plans on a silver platter).
ESL/IEM and all the other organizers had a huge say in what was created this year, why would they go to all the trouble of creating a WCS Global Event with their own money and the stringent requirements when they can create a Circuit event and get topped up by Blizzard? Stuchiu said we'd see 1-3 Global events. I think he's close but even that is too optimistic, if I see 2 WCS Global Events next year I'll be shocked
As for the announcement, if it were another IEM maybe we'd give them the benefit. IEM Katowice is different, it's supposed to be the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, the showcase of the IEM season. The fact that's the FIRST event to get gutted to WCS Circuit level, doesn't leave me with much hope for the future, more like you'll see a lot of what you're seeing with this. Every "Premier" event will be a WCS Circuit event and we'll have a token "Invitational" somewhere for the Koreans
I'd have a lot more respect for people who support this system if they'd call it what they're thinking "WCS Fuck Korea"
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
On December 20 2015 04:52 happyGo wrote: This was a good, fair article, but I disagree:
0. I love seeing foreigners play. I also think that Blizzard is making a huge bet with LoTV and this announcement: they've done a huge amount to make LoTV more micro-oriented, and I think they believe this will favor foreigners and shift the balance towards parity. Evidence: I just watched Serral in NW3 take down 3 Koreans in a row, and he almost beat Inno twice. I know this opinion is controversial, just a thought.
There's no motivation for a Foreign player to improve if he doesn't have to face Inno more than 3-4 times a year (IF we're lucky, I'll address that later). I'm all for creating a foreign scene, but you don't strengthen the scene as a whole by killing off the one strong scene you have, which is what will happen with these changes, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but before the year is out it will happen
like i said before, we had that system for the majority of SCII. So where are all these high level foreigners everyone thinks wont come again if we change the system? I cant name five foreigners competing on par with Koreans right now. Why keep ppl arguing that this new system will kill something that hasn't happened in all the years past?
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I'm also looking forward to more level competition at these circuit tournaments.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
There's no motivation for a Foreign player to improve if he doesn't have to face Inno more than 3-4 times a year (IF we're lucky, I'll address that later). I'm all for creating a foreign scene, but you don't strengthen the scene as a whole by killing off the one strong scene you have, which is what will happen with these changes, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow but before the year is out it will happen
I agree that there could've been more support in the announcement for the Korean leagues. However, I'm curious why you think foreigners are motivated by Korean matchups? Lilbow was the only foreigner to show up at the Global Finals, and that's pretty much all he did...show up. This year was probably the best in terms of Korean vs foreigner matchups, and it didn't seem to pan out very well.
Edit: Though, despite all this, I still really enjoyed the starcraft 2 2015 scene! Heh, trying to up the spirits in this thread a bit...
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
By that logic 2015 WCS > 2016 WCS for foreigners because there were 8 less tournaments since there are less chances to become the champion and they'll be more motivated to practice.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
With that line, I simply meant that the hardcore fanbase preferred to watch games perceived to be of higher skill(in tournaments like GSL and SSL), which are mostly Korean in nature, rather than WCS games. This remark was a reply to aQuaSc's statement that we should rethink what we want to watch.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
Hell, if we want level play why bother with pro players at all? Just get a bunch of people off the street who've never touched Starcraft and we'll see how they learn on the job. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is great way to go about things
With that line, I simply meant that the hardcore fanbase preferred to watch games perceived to be of higher skill(in tournaments like GSL and SSL), which are mostly Korean in nature, rather than WCS games. This remark was a reply to aQuaSc's statement that we should rethink what we want to watch.
--> the hardcore fanbase
...and most of people watching are not hardcore fanbase, even if in a game like sc2, the ratio is probably higher than it is in a more "casual" game. You have here one of the answer explaining the choice of blizzard's change for 2016, or at least, a reason explaining why they did not refuse to do this change. I'm not a grandmaster player, i play SC2 for fun, and I don't consider myself as part of a hardcore fanbase even if i'm watching most of broadcasted tournaments. I know when watching korean pros that some of their moves are incredible, but sometimes i see the same kind of play in foreigners matches. And even if korean players are sometimes godlike, i always enjoy watching foreigners. This is why i'm ok with 2016 format, even if i understand the point of view of "hardcore fanbase".
These are difficult times, "racist" Blizzard trying to damage the Korean scene, foreign players cheering for their free money and the shameless SC2 casters and business community celebrating.
Who deserves acknowledgement is everyone from that community, who is not celebrating, but seeing it with realistic eyes, including the screw-up of Koreans. The article above written by Stuchiu is great. I found a second reasonable opinion and EGInControl won my respect. It is a very good article, explaining, why and for whom the changes are good, while at the same time not neglecting the dark side: https://splyce.gg/topics/post/173
Just have to say that the die hard fans on TL who have followed loyally are clearly not the viewers that Blizzard is trying to gain and attract with this move. I totally understand how people like that are mad about it and it is very unsurprising. I am pretty darn sure that is the vocal minority though.
Personally, I think it is pretty good. Also I think that people who say this will make foreigners worse are kind of stupid. It is very possible that the chance to win tournaments and make money rather than the chance to upset a korean and make the ro8 will prove to be better incentive to practice and get better at the game. It is not like the actual tournament games are where the improvement takes place.
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
I was referring to GSL and SSL compared to hard-region locked WCS with the line you highlighted.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
By that logic 2015 WCS > 2016 WCS for foreigners because there were 8 less tournaments since there are less chances to become the champion and they'll be more motivated to practice.
I think you should compare apples with apples here. No foreigner has an actual shot at winning anything. I keep asking you guys to name just five foreigners that can repeatedly take games off Koreans. Nothing so far...
On December 20 2015 02:59 FFgringo wrote: IMO most of you guys don't think about this as a long term strategy that could improve the global sc2 scene. You only focus on bad aspects which are not even sure atm. To sum up, you are afraid that it will decrease the global level as foreigners won't be able to compete regularly against top korean players. Some others think that they will less watch high-level sc2. Did you realize that GSL/SSL/Proleague/Kespa cup etc etc did not disappear? Did you realize that Polt/Hydra/Jeadong... were defeated by foreigners in 2015? Some will argue that these korean players are not as good as the ones staying in korea, which is true, but frankly speaking i don't care.
What I personnaly realize is that we will have a lot of tournaments troughout the year, some which will be pro-foreigners, but GSL and SSL will still offer us incredible level and marvelous games.
Don't judge these changes too early. Wait for next blizzcon and be sure that blizzard will carefully analyze how the 2016 format will satisfy people worldwide. If it is a total fail, they will change it again in 2017, but I would not bet on that. LotV will live for a long time.
Some people believe that tournament appearances of Koreans in international tournaments are an opportunity to practice for foreigners. Personally I find this logic strange. Do you really think that a Korean - practicing exclusively on Korea - coming to a tournament to play against non-Koreans - often not having an opportunity to play there - are good practice? I thought that "practice" is tons of time spent on playing, not few bo3 or bo5 matches.
There are also lots of twisted arguments against that new system, as less opportunities to meet Koreans in person. I think that if "high-quality purists" wanted to see more of high-level Korean play, they should boycott GSL/SSL whatsoever as it wastes time that could be potentially used for 2 or 3 times more online events.
Or people should rethink what they want to watch, the game or Korean environment which will probably never exist outside of this country.
They are not merely an opportunity to practice. They are important trials of skill for the foreigner - the fundamental point of this article - that not only actualises the storyline of the underdog foreigner standing against the elite Korean, but also provides foreigners with the increased motivation to practice harder to attain the ideal and pass the trial, ie. defeating the Korean.
And with regards to your 2nd point... What? 'High-level purists' should boycott the tournaments containing the best players... because these tournaments occupy time better used for... online events? Such as the vaunted OlimoLeague and the Leifeng Cup?
Your last paragraph is simply laughable. It is precisely because these 'high-level purists' want to see the greatest depths and the highest expression of skill in the game itself that they want more Korean tournaments, and more Koreans playing, in general. I think it is you who should rethink what you want to watch. The dichotomy, for us 'purists', as SC2 players and spectators, is to simply choose between objectively higher levels of play, compared to significantly lower quality play. Not because we simply want to watch the 'Korean environment'.
So you think a high level Korean stomping a foreigner is higher level of play? I see your point and I can agree that it is much more fun to see two high level players fight it out, but thats what GSL is for. One less GSL tournament sucks, I give you that, but come on, seeing Koreans play vs foreigners at IEMs and DHs was a long way from "higher level play".
Hell, if we want level play why bother with pro players at all? Just get a bunch of people off the street who've never touched Starcraft and we'll see how they learn on the job. Pandering to the lowest common denominator is great way to go about things
the argument is that before you increase the skill level of a region you first need to actually develop said region... why is it so hard to understand that? its a very simple concept. sorry, but this is kind frustrating...
Can someone explain to me why the new system doesn't help local scenes? I somehow still cannot understand how Koreans, hopping into DreamHacks and IEMs, with 90% of them practicing exclusively in Korea, helped raise the skill. To me it only increased the skill ceiling, hurting potential motivation to play. Is sOs, Life and others coming to an international event helpful to the local scene? Surely their presence created few great moments, but in most part it's helpful only for those who want to see them live, want an autograph and a picture. Or see them humiliate non-Koreans. I really want to understand why their trips to international events, where they are sure to take most of the top spots, are so great for the local scenes. To not view me as a blind supporter deserving no respect from hardcore fans, I'm sad about less GSL and SSL too.
By the way:
Foreigners will definitely be playing during BlizzCon opening weekend, with 8 spots assured.
I never thought for a second someone could list this as positive
I did compare apples with apples. I'm not talking about pitting foreigners against Koreans, I'm talking about their individual leagues: WCS and GSL/SL.
I only compared the foreign region with the foreign region and the Korean region with the Korean region. In both cases more tournaments is better for both scenes. It doesn't make sense to say "More tournaments is better for the foreign scene, while less tournaments is better for the Korean scene"
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
This line of reasoning makes no sense. Lessening the amount of tournaments does change the competition and makes it worse.
Just look at WCS 2015, the entire argument was that with only 3 WCS for foreigners, there wasn't enough motivation for foreigners to practice. That goes the exact same for the Korean scene.
Just like how only 3 WCS tournaments is unequivocally worse than the ~11 tournaments this year, only 5 tournaments for Koreans is unequivocally worse than the 8 last year, especially because there are no guarantees of international tournaments to play in.
On December 20 2015 06:40 Atreides wrote: Just have to say that the die hard fans on TL who have followed loyally are clearly not the viewers that Blizzard is trying to gain and attract with this move.
No, clearly not, but they're the ones who've supported the game for years and will continue to do it after the other viewers move on to something new.
On December 20 2015 06:40 Atreides wrote: Personally, I think it is pretty good. Also I think that people who say this will make foreigners worse are kind of stupid. It is very possible that the chance to win tournaments and make money rather than the chance to upset a korean and make the ro8 will prove to be better incentive to practice and get better at the game. It is not like the actual tournament games are where the improvement takes place.
They'll improve on a personal level, but they won't improve at a relative level because the level at which they practice and try to improve is lower. Foreigners won't get worse but the gap between best foreigners and best Koreans can and arguably will still widen considerably.
its a great article but sc, sc2 is worn out now you wont get the same bang for your buck any more anyway, we just have to hope the core supporters of the game carry on supporting it so that we still at least get games and tournies. Its pretty clear that numbers are dropping for the game, people have had their time with it it seems to me
On December 19 2015 19:45 Nerchio wrote: The story of Korean vs Best foreigner will be hyped up more than before because it's not going to happen so often and that's only a good thing. We will have to see what happens at first Blizzcon but I have a feeling some foreigners will be able to put up a fight
Yes, I'm sure herO vs Petraeus will be so hype and unpredictable.
Besides, why would foreigners be more able to put up a fight than in HotS? Infrastucture hasn't changed at all (except for the Mill house which will gain a bit in importance I guess), foreign ladders will be devoid of any Koreans besides Polt/Hydra/JD, the game is as demanding, if not more, as HotS, and there are no more Koreans in foreign teams who could occasionnaly help foreign teammates to train.
Do you expect that a few additional dollars and some more articles on TL about a foreign player will somehow increase his skill level to a Korean's, who is training in a perfect environment with the best of the best everyday?
he means a fight for which bo5 will be the quickest. Dethroning lilbow won't be easy but it can happen.
Naniwa is still n°1 :p
And something that helps to understand what's going on: DH/ESL are owned by the same company. Don't expect a lot of them, they're clearly backing out and it's demonstrated by ESL employees on twitter mocking everyone sad about the 1/3 less korean content.
I have to agree that the mocking tone of some people really disappointed me. I can respect people of different opinion but seeing people I like behave like that is sad.
Or all of that was just a plot to let SC2 competitive scene die a faster, less painfull death than it awaits anyway.
Can the region lock increase viewership on more local tournaments? It sure can, but therefore SC2 must be able to attract viewers in the first place, especially those that havent seen or played SC2 before. And i doubt that companies will be willing to pump even more money into advertisment than they do at the moment. Especially in Europe and after the region lock.
I for example, am not a hardcore fan anymore. I know some of the pro foreign players, and a very few of the current korean pro players. I couldnt care less for the region lock because all i want to see is good games. And i am definitely not playing on a level where i could discern huge differences in skill. I can say they play good and they have a good micro. But i cant say if it is just good, very good or exceptional micro, macro and multitasking ability. For Example: Player A vs Player B (both European) compared to Player C vs Player D (both Korean). If those matches would be unnamed, i could hardly tell who is Korean, European, let alone the better player in general.
On December 20 2015 06:55 StatixEx wrote: its a great article but sc, sc2 is worn out now you wont get the same bang for your buck any more anyway, we just have to hope the core supporters of the game carry on supporting it so that we still at least get games and tournies. Its pretty clear that numbers are dropping for the game, people have had their time with it it seems to me
If SC2 is growing worn-out, it is Blizzard to be blamed for it. This move only looks to put foreigners on a pedestal, that they frankly didn't earn. It's an ignorant move by Blizzard, who think they know better than the rest of the world when it comes to how an eSport works. More than that, it's the latest in a long series of maneuvers made by Blizzard, to force the game to play exactly the way they want, and not how the players want. This isn't your game to play, it's Blizzard's, and they're driving that fact all the way home. It's a sad thing.
Also I'm just gonna let this 2112 sit here for a bit. Because I can.
On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote: I did compare apples with apples. I'm not talking about pitting foreigners against Koreans, I'm talking about their individual leagues: WCS and GSL/SL.
I only compared the foreign region with the foreign region and the Korean region with the Korean region. In both cases more tournaments is better for both scenes. It doesn't make sense to say "More tournaments is better for the foreign scene, while less tournaments is better for the Korean scene"
The difference is, Koreans are on par with other Koreans. So for Korea less tournaments can actually have a different effect than for the rest of the world. you can make a WCS every weekend, but if player A has no chance in winning that tournament because the competition is to strong it will not motivate him to train and increase his skill. its like that analogy another poster made. throw a bronze player in GM he will get stomped and lose interest and motivation. allow him to play vs players of his skill and he might get motivated to train harder and get better. i think this is what this system is doing. so more tournaments for foreigners might have the same effect as less tournaments for Koreans. i don't agree with your point that this has to be a contradiction.
But that competition doesn't change, on the contrary it might get even better since there is one less tournament. Players (Koreans) might be even more motivated to practice and get better since there is one less chance to become the champion.
This line of reasoning makes no sense. Lessening the amount of tournaments does change the competition and makes it worse.
well i played sports on a very high level, even managed to win a national championship (okay Switzerland is not that big, but still ) and in my experience it is not the tournament that makes you better but the time you prepare for it. Hell we even had that proven in SCII when some pros said they wont attend some tournaments because it hurts their practice and overall skill level.
On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote: Just look at WCS 2015, the entire argument was that with only 3 WCS for foreigners, there wasn't enough motivation for foreigners to practice. That goes the exact same for the Korean scene.
Just like how only 3 WCS tournaments is unequivocally worse than the ~11 tournaments this year, only 5 tournaments for Koreans is unequivocally worse than the 8 last year, especially because there are no guarantees of international tournaments to play in.
That might be true, but then again, doesnt Korea generally do what they want? Did Blizzard actually tell them to only run two GSLs in 2016? I mean at least i didn't see Blizzard telling Korea how to do it. If i didnt get that please correct me, but if it wasnt Blizz who told them what to do you cant really blame their system for less tournaments in Korea can you?
Edit: TL:DR Just to make this more/less tournament thing clear: I think more tournaments for foreigners increases their motivation to actually try to go pro. i dont think it will increase the skill level but i believe it might increase the overall player base. Korea on the other hand already has a large player base and the highest skill level. besides Koreans have a really strong work ethic and infrastructure to support their training. so for Korea i can see less tournaments make the players work even harder so they can show the world how good they are and win the fewer existing tournaments.
Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
On December 20 2015 06:55 stuchiu wrote: Just look at WCS 2015, the entire argument was that with only 3 WCS for foreigners, there wasn't enough motivation for foreigners to practice. That goes the exact same for the Korean scene.
Just like how only 3 WCS tournaments is unequivocally worse than the ~11 tournaments this year, only 5 tournaments for Koreans is unequivocally worse than the 8 last year, especially because there are no guarantees of international tournaments to play in.
That might be true, but then again, doesnt Korea generally do what they want? Did Blizzard actually tell them to only run two GSLs in 2016? I mean at least i didn't see Blizzard telling Korea how to do it. If i didnt get that please correct me, but if it wasnt Blizz who told them what to do you cant really blame their system for less tournaments in Korea can you?
To make it so more people can follow these exciting tournaments and to open up space in the schedule for the cross-finals, each league will operate two seasons next year, with a significant increase in prize pool for the leagues. We are also working with our partners to offer GSL and SSL rebroadcasts during additional peak times.
From the official announcement. Sure makes it sound like it was Blizzard. GSL and SSL weren't exactly in dire need of the cross-competition event. And they're probably not behind the huge increase in prize pool either since the prize pool for 1 GSL in the new system is way beyond 2 leagues in the previous system.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life.
Comparing GuMiho with Sangho and Pet is pretty savage, even for you
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
Thank you Stuchiu. This is exactly the problem, I see. People can discuss, whether the changes will be better for the foreign scene. There are reasons pro, there are reasons against. Probably, the pros are bigger. For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
But for TOP and MID level Koreans, this is a catastrophy. For people like Gumiho, Rogue and even for Maru and sOs, What a pity, they do not have some "gamer unions", who could publicly state their opinion and e.g. announce some kind of boycotting BlizzCon completely. That is what Blizzard would deserve.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
obviously not all Koreans are equally good but the opportunity to practice and increase their skill is the same for ALL of them.
I explained in length why i think lesser tournaments in Korea might have a different effect than lesser tournaments in the rest of the world. if you disagree with my point thats obviously up to you, yet the history of SCII so far doesnt back what your article is claiming.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
The way I see it there are two ways to doing this: 1) no region lock whatsoever, which is bad for the foreign scene for obvious reasons (Koreans win it all, no incentive for any foreigner to even try), and 2) THIS new 2016 " foreign welfare system", which is the other extreme, giving handouts to foreigners while lowering the scene's skill level or motivation to ever get better (while also screwing all the up-and-coming koreans in the process). IMHO the 2015 system had a pretty good balance, and with some minor tweaks it could be improved year-to-year; instead Blizz went full foreign welfare.. I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed by this..
BTW, as a viewer I gotta say I'd rather watch high quality matches without any foreigners any day, and by forcing lots of really good korean players to quit/retire or give up on their careers as pro-gamers by favoring lower skilled foreigner players Blizz is lowering the quality of the matches and the entertainment value of the matches. I cannot see how this is going to benefit the SC2 scene as a whole in the long run.
On December 20 2015 13:54 waiting2Bbanned wrote: The way I see it there are two ways to doing this: 1) no region lock whatsoever, which is bad for the foreign scene for obvious reasons (Koreans win it all, no incentive for any foreigner to even try), and 2) THIS new 2016 " foreign welfare system", which is the other extreme, giving handouts to foreigners while lowering the scene's skill level or motivation to ever get better (while also screwing all the up-and-coming koreans in the process). IMHO the 2015 system had a pretty good balance, and with some minor tweaks it could be improved year-to-year; instead Blizz went full foreign welfare.. I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed by this..
Exactly. Blizzard went from one extreme to the other extreme. And 2015 was good, it had the welfare for the losers, it also had good tournaments for the elite. And the mix was reasonable.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I think it's a great long-term move. I think the structure is greatly akin to what Riot does with LCS. Yes, you probably won't be seeing any champions come out regions that don't start with Korea, but it's all about building up an infrastructure that can even allow fostering that development. The big improvement is that it will, ideally (just like it did with LCS), build up huge viewership in the respective regions which increases marketability and incoming money. It's a lot easier to find sponsors for a league that services pretty much viewers in only that region. And even though I'm on TL right now, the vast majority of people do not care if it's the highest level of competition that they are watching and instead like the players they are watching. This has been proven in cs:go, lol, dota and professional sports (maple leafs fans, anyone?). So even if the regions become more isolated (less *global* events) each region will grow on it's own.
Yes, if all you care about is getting the best competitors than it doesn't make sense. But if you want the scene to live, and eventually thrive, it's the only sensible move to try to keep it alive in the west. I mean I haven't even watched or cared about SC since 2012 and with this announcement I am excited for what is to come and gives me hope for the future as getting back into it and seeing the foreigner scene now is downright depressing. I know the same for a lot of the people I was into SC with at that time too. I think there are a lot of parables to take from the LCS structure and apply it here, since I think they are basically the same thing. That's not to say it's perfect, or necessarily a good system, but in regards to specifically growing the game and promoting it a western audience it is the best move they can make. And at the end of the day it's all about long-term, stable, growth.
I will say that I am actually not a fan of this system because I do greatly enjoy the more international competition but the benefits that it brings are undeniable.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I think it is normal that people retire in e-sports (as in any sport). sc2 has been around for a long time, and starcraft pros usually start to struggle when they get too far into their twenties. That went for sc:bw as well I assume. The reason we see sc2 players retire is just that the game is getting old, which means that the oldest players are also getting old, so they retire. What we SHOULD look at, is if we still have an influx of new players and pros. But I feel that is a slightly different discussion, more related to "dedgaem". This new system makes it harder for koreans to win money in foreign tournaments (as you have been saying once or twice), which may trigger a few retirements that probably would have happened soon anyway. But well, I feel that a more important thing to look at is the influx of new faces.
And the passive-aggressive insults from the two of you aren't really contributing to a better discussion imo.
So yeah, for the foreign scene we want two things: 1) Real incentive for foreigners to be their very best. 2) Give foreigners best training environment by frequently being matched against koreans. This also makes for a better spectator experience as pointed out in the OP.
Completely open tournaments would hit 2), but 1) would suffer. Completely locked regions would fulfill 1), but 2) would suffer. I'd like to get off that sliding scale and find a way that meets both 1) and 2). Shouldn't that be possible in some way?
I suggested international team leagues with at most 2 koreans out of 4 players or something, which maybe can meet both 1) and 2), I think team leagues in sc:bw (and sc2 for that matter) helped keep the mid-top korean players motivated as well, so maybe it'd work with foreigners as well. But I'd invite you and others to come up with something else.
On December 20 2015 17:32 Daswollvieh wrote: So, now Sc2 works like any other global sport... the horror.
because in every other sports all countries can compete in all tournaments except for one country which is only allowed to play tournaments in their own country.
On December 20 2015 14:00 waiting2Bbanned wrote: BTW, as a viewer I gotta say I'd rather watch high quality matches without any foreigners any day, and by forcing lots of really good korean players to quit/retire or give up on their careers as pro-gamers by favoring lower skilled foreigner players Blizz is lowering the quality of the matches and the entertainment value of the matches. I cannot see how this is going to benefit the SC2 scene as a whole in the long run.
Ironic that it happens to be college bowl season. I wonder how it survives being such inferior matches to he NFL...
On December 20 2015 14:00 waiting2Bbanned wrote: BTW, as a viewer I gotta say I'd rather watch high quality matches without any foreigners any day, and by forcing lots of really good korean players to quit/retire or give up on their careers as pro-gamers by favoring lower skilled foreigner players Blizz is lowering the quality of the matches and the entertainment value of the matches. I cannot see how this is going to benefit the SC2 scene as a whole in the long run.
Ironic that it happens to be college bowl season. I wonder how it survives being such inferior matches to he NFL...
I think foreigner Starcraft, with just a few exceptions is more comparable to High school football rather than college football. IMO
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
You are the naive one here, if you think most of the retirements are because of new wcs format. It's because of the new game. You think it will screw up korean scene? This is ridiculous. Be sure Kespa discussed this with blizzard and agree with the new system. What i see is just a decrease to 8 maximum korean players to global finals. Nothing AT THIS TIME can support your theory that there will be less tournaments in korea. Less GSL and SSL will maybe induce more other tournaments. And even if it's not the case, proleague is a weekly event. Maybe Kespa wanted to decrease the number of tournaments as well? A recent example, is that Kespa only sent one player for Nation Wars, Innovation. Parting and Hydra, the two others of the korean lineup are not Kespa players. Why? Because of calendar and proleague. So do not say there are not enough tournaments anymore in korea, as even Kespa knows that they're busy. Korea is the elite, but IMO best foreigners are better than the B-team or MID korean you are all talking about.
And a final word, imho the narrative will continue. Everything depends on the context. The context just changed. period.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I think it is normal that people retire in e-sports (as in any sport). sc2 has been around for a long time, and starcraft pros usually start to struggle when they get too far into their twenties. That went for sc:bw as well I assume. The reason we see sc2 players retire is just that the game is getting old, which means that the oldest players are also getting old, so they retire. What we SHOULD look at, is if we still have an influx of new players and pros. But I feel that is a slightly different discussion, more related to "dedgaem". This new system makes it harder for koreans to win money in foreign tournaments (as you have been saying once or twice), which may trigger a few retirements that probably would have happened soon anyway. But well, I feel that a more important thing to look at is the influx of new faces.
And the passive-aggressive insults from the two of you aren't really contributing to a better discussion imo.
So yeah, for the foreign scene we want two things: 1) Real incentive for foreigners to be their very best. 2) Give foreigners best training environment by frequently being matched against koreans. This also makes for a better spectator experience as pointed out in the OP.
Completely open tournaments would hit 2), but 1) would suffer. Completely locked regions would fulfill 1), but 2) would suffer. I'd like to get off that sliding scale and find a way that meets both 1) and 2). Shouldn't that be possible in some way?
I suggested international team leagues with at most 2 koreans out of 4 players or something, which maybe can meet both 1) and 2), I think team leagues in sc:bw (and sc2 for that matter) helped keep the mid-top korean players motivated as well, so maybe it'd work with foreigners as well. But I'd invite you and others to come up with something else.
How about making progaming a sustainable career so its viable career choice so they dont need to retire so early?
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
You are the naive one here, if you think most of the retirements are because of new wcs format. It's because of the new game. You think it will screw up korean scene? This is ridiculous. Be sure Kespa discussed this with blizzard and agree with the new system. What i see is just a decrease to 8 maximum korean players to global finals. Nothing AT THIS TIME can support your theory that there will be less tournaments in korea. Less GSL and SSL will maybe induce more other tournaments. And even if it's not the case, proleague is a weekly event. Maybe Kespa wanted to decrease the number of tournaments as well? A recent example, is that Kespa only sent one player for Nation Wars, Innovation. Parting and Hydra, the two others of the korean lineup are not Kespa players. Why? Because of calendar and proleague. So do not say there are not enough tournaments anymore in korea, as even Kespa knows that they're busy. Korea is the elite, but IMO best foreigners are better than the B-team or MID korean you are all talking about.
And a final word, imho the narrative will continue. Everything depends on the context. The context just changed. period.
In 2013 there were only 3 tournaments in Korea and HoTS was released that year so why would there be more tournaments now LoTV's released.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I think it is normal that people retire in e-sports (as in any sport). sc2 has been around for a long time, and starcraft pros usually start to struggle when they get too far into their twenties. That went for sc:bw as well I assume. The reason we see sc2 players retire is just that the game is getting old, which means that the oldest players are also getting old, so they retire. What we SHOULD look at, is if we still have an influx of new players and pros. But I feel that is a slightly different discussion, more related to "dedgaem". This new system makes it harder for koreans to win money in foreign tournaments (as you have been saying once or twice), which may trigger a few retirements that probably would have happened soon anyway. But well, I feel that a more important thing to look at is the influx of new faces.
And the passive-aggressive insults from the two of you aren't really contributing to a better discussion imo.
So yeah, for the foreign scene we want two things: 1) Real incentive for foreigners to be their very best. 2) Give foreigners best training environment by frequently being matched against koreans. This also makes for a better spectator experience as pointed out in the OP.
Completely open tournaments would hit 2), but 1) would suffer. Completely locked regions would fulfill 1), but 2) would suffer. I'd like to get off that sliding scale and find a way that meets both 1) and 2). Shouldn't that be possible in some way?
I suggested international team leagues with at most 2 koreans out of 4 players or something, which maybe can meet both 1) and 2), I think team leagues in sc:bw (and sc2 for that matter) helped keep the mid-top korean players motivated as well, so maybe it'd work with foreigners as well. But I'd invite you and others to come up with something else.
How about making progaming a sustainable career so its viable career choice so they dont need to retire so early?
Thats what this new system does i think. At least for the foreing scene. I hope it works out
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I'm surprised how blind can you be on why people retire. Have you asked them why they do it? Correlation does not imply causation. Ask these who retired why they did it. If they say "it's because of the new WCS system, it's Blizzard's fault" - I'll turn my opinion on new WCS from fairly favorable to poor, as obviously StarCraft needs healthy Korean scene to survive long-term.
A little bit more than healthy foreign scene, as obviously you could see that StarCraft II was very, very big and was getting even bigger when open WCS turned WCS America into WCS Korea B and left almost no chances to people who could not practice with Koreans regularly. Instead of fighting for championship, people honestly started to aim for top-something.
People playing for almost 10 years can be exhausted because of constantly playing the game in general, can you imagine that? If you think that current Korean professional player base is specifically a thing we need to desperately hang on to, not a healthy system, I understand your view and I won't try to discuss with you anymore, since we are talking about different things.
Let's rig the system to never give chances to foreigners, screw their possible infrastructure, don't sponsor their tournament trips (it's so great that they do it) but throw more money into Korea, never let upsets happen, seed sOs, Life and others or turn balance in their favor - if they won't qualify once, just make more tournaments for them to increase their chances - and we'll have the perfect StarCraft we can possibly get. I love Korean scene. It's sad to see players I rooted for go. And while I understand that fans can leave the game and move on with their favorite players leaving, like it happened with IdrA, it's the game that is played, not players.
I feel people against the system hate the system so much because they pity Koreans having too strong competition in their own region. I don't know what to think about it. It's like boycotting football world cup because your favorite team from South America didn't qualify.
And again, the main problem this system has it's that it is introduced too late. And again with the world cup analogy, it's like taking out one slot from mentioned CONMEBOL (South America) in favor of CONCACAF (North and Central America with Carribean). It arguably sucks for the overall quality of the game in the big tournament happening every four years, having one less team from super-competitive region in favor for other, but it creates a possibility of sparking more motivation and raising base skill and interest in the second. Can you imagine the outrage it would create in football, if it happened there? Can you even imagine how many potential talent in South America is wasted because of the local competition? Isn't that - as someone here keeps saying - "racist"? Blizzcon should be a world summary of players, become an incentive for players, the dream they have. If you dislike the system so much, ignore WCS and watch only GSL/SSL with Proleague. Watch only the Copa America. I will definitely watch all of them because I love them, but I would like to see local scenes rising too.
But in the end, it's a business, and as an esport it has much more rapid life and shorter life expectancy than a traditional sport - therefore I imagine it is not possible to commit to for more than 10 years unless you're in Korea, or you really like the industry and want to make it big. But to make it big it takes more than few willing people (if you're not a millionaire). That's a hope I have for this system, to spark interest in local, non-Korean scene again. People underestimate regional WCS from few years ago, how interesting it was. Or maybe don't remember?
On December 20 2015 14:00 waiting2Bbanned wrote: BTW, as a viewer I gotta say I'd rather watch high quality matches without any foreigners any day, and by forcing lots of really good korean players to quit/retire or give up on their careers as pro-gamers by favoring lower skilled foreigner players Blizz is lowering the quality of the matches and the entertainment value of the matches. I cannot see how this is going to benefit the SC2 scene as a whole in the long run.
Ironic that it happens to be college bowl season. I wonder how it survives being such inferior matches to he NFL...
I think foreigner Starcraft, with just a few exceptions is more comparable to High school football rather than college football. IMO
I won't argue that :D
However, I still feel that these "lower level matches" won't hurt the scene. Some will stop watching, others will watch longer... Everyone watches for their own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that. Either you're entertained or not. Personally the matches I have the least interest in are foreigner vs Korean. We'll see in a year what the overall viewer results are.
I'll also repeat my thoughts on the financial impact this change might have. Money stays in each scene. Previously a lot of money was spent for Koreans to travel. Even if more money ended up going back to Korea than was spent on travel it probably wasn't a huge gain. However, I do think it's going to be a huge gain for the foreign scene to be able to collect all the prizes from circuit events! If the small loss for Koreans can be compensated by slightly larger investment in WCS Korea then then all we end up with is a big gain in the western scene. Now, if this can also interest "casual viewers" a little more that might really see the foreigner scene grow. There's a lot of guessing in there and only time will tell but I think there's positive changes all around.
On December 20 2015 23:45 aQuaSC wrote: But in the end, it's a business, and as an esport it has much more rapid life and shorter life expectancy than a traditional sport - therefore I imagine it is not possible to commit to for more than 10 years unless you're in Korea, or you really like the industry and want to make it big. But to make it big it takes more than few willing people (if you're not a millionaire). That's a hope I have for this system, to spark interest in local, non-Korean scene again. People underestimate regional WCS from few years ago, how interesting it was. Or maybe don't remember?
Wow, I edited that post a lot.
Some of us remember, despite our best attempts not to *shudders*
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
I think it is normal that people retire in e-sports (as in any sport). sc2 has been around for a long time, and starcraft pros usually start to struggle when they get too far into their twenties. That went for sc:bw as well I assume. The reason we see sc2 players retire is just that the game is getting old, which means that the oldest players are also getting old, so they retire. What we SHOULD look at, is if we still have an influx of new players and pros. But I feel that is a slightly different discussion, more related to "dedgaem". This new system makes it harder for koreans to win money in foreign tournaments (as you have been saying once or twice), which may trigger a few retirements that probably would have happened soon anyway. But well, I feel that a more important thing to look at is the influx of new faces.
And the passive-aggressive insults from the two of you aren't really contributing to a better discussion imo.
So yeah, for the foreign scene we want two things: 1) Real incentive for foreigners to be their very best. 2) Give foreigners best training environment by frequently being matched against koreans. This also makes for a better spectator experience as pointed out in the OP.
Completely open tournaments would hit 2), but 1) would suffer. Completely locked regions would fulfill 1), but 2) would suffer. I'd like to get off that sliding scale and find a way that meets both 1) and 2). Shouldn't that be possible in some way?
I suggested international team leagues with at most 2 koreans out of 4 players or something, which maybe can meet both 1) and 2), I think team leagues in sc:bw (and sc2 for that matter) helped keep the mid-top korean players motivated as well, so maybe it'd work with foreigners as well. But I'd invite you and others to come up with something else.
How about making progaming a sustainable career so its viable career choice so they dont need to retire so early?
Isn't that the topic of this entire discussion? I think everyone wants that. How do you think it should be done though?
SC2 needs: 1 - big stages with top competition including local heroes. 2 - new players going pro in all regions
For "1" other than the existence of the tournaments itself, the foreigners must improve.
Watching foreigners get stomped is not fun, but the solution is not to exclude koreans. As long as the foreign scene is considerably weaker it will happen, unless we don't watch it at all, and this is how SC2 will die. If nobody cares about the top competition the locals won't have a big stage to move to. Sure its nice to see who is the best in the country or region but its not as appealing as watching those champions face each other and prove themselves.
Sounds obvious? But next blizzcon will probably have more stomps than ever and they will not be fun to watch! The biggest stage will be a place for local heroes to be anti hyped for life. That is, if foreigners don't step it up, which we shoudn't expect to just happen out of nowhere. Making sure they don't play on the korean ladder is very counter productive and while the current system helps new players move in it doesn't help them get better. Its not viable to give the e-sport infra structure and practice conditions of Seoul to the entire world, but that should be the general direction. I believe those 200k$ that the very best will get could be put to better use.
For "2" the WCS system works for all regions except Korea. For them its counter productive.
The Korean scene is the upper standard when it comes to skill and its also quite healthy right now. But its also the harshest competition and it must be extremely intimidating for newcomers. They need space for mid-tier players.
Who is going to try to play SC2 professionally if the smallest and only prize/title they can get is an SSL or GSL? At least they have the teams infra structure and support, but if there is nowhere for them to play the scene will shrink at the pace the players retire until its empty enough for new people to move in, and in this case it may not happen at all.
Things only get worse for them, not only its unfair, but its as if the sustainability of the korean scene is taken as granted. Hurting the healthiest SC2 scene is making sure SC2 as an e-sport will die sooner.
Blizzard is trying to dictate what the crowds want and it will most likely fail.
From WoL selling 8+ million copies to hots selling 5+ to lotv selling...too early to say but does not look good.
The problem is that Blizzard is trying to replicate Kespa's success but they are not a company that is solely crated for the purpose of creating an e-sport, they are a game developing company.
Kespa managed to have a strong hold on broodwar because broodwar was already a big thing in Korea. No one told people that its going to be a big thing, it was because people liked it, and Kespa found a way to organize it.
Thats not to say Kespa did it perfectly, but they basically saw a big pie and decided how to cut it. Blizzard even in 2010 was already trying to cut a pie before there was a pie.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
lol, people are retiring all at once because it's the end of the year and contracts are up.
On December 20 2015 07:53 stuchiu wrote: Koreans are not on par with Koreans. Gumiho is not on par with Innovation. Sangho was not on par with Zest. Pet is not on par with Life. There is a distinct elite tier of players that can consistently make a ro8. That shortens when you get to the ro4 and becomes even smaller for a championship contender. I don't see why everyone's fine just throwing away the low-mid tier of Korean players to the wolves.
As for your second point, by your logic we should be be lessening the amount of WCS foreigner only tournaments so that the foreigners get more motivation and practice more for those fewer chances. Oh no wait, that didnt work, all of the lower to mid tier foreigners lost motivation, just like how all of the low-mid tier Koreans will now too. (They were already being squeezed out of the scene as they have had the most retirements from 2013 to now).
The system was made in tandem with all their partners. I just assume Blizzard did it this way, but if they want to come out and say it was all GSL/SSL's decision that's up to them. Just don't sell it to me that's it good for the foreigner scene to have more tournaments and then sell it to me that it's also better for the Korean scene to have less tournaments.
For fans and viewers, it is a bad change. But we will survive it.
Well, that's just your very biased and narrow-minded opinion.
The foreign scene has been practically dead for two years, because Korean players just stomp on everyone, and stifle a lot of opportunities. You have to have regional development before you throw everyone at the elite competition or else everything just dies before it even starts. I want MORE shit like Nation Wars, more western players battling it out among themselves to improve at a more reasonable pace. You don't improve by getting shat on by a top tier Korean player at an international event in a single Bo3 every couple months.
I also love the insistence that the currently announced Korean tournaments are literally the only tournaments that will ever happen or be allowed in 2016 and that there will literally be no outside tournaments any Korean will ever be able to compete in, ever.
Do you all really, REALLY think that Blizzard would just entirely take a shit on the whole Korean scene? Do you really think they would bother announcing WCS Global Events without having at least a few planned?
Holy shit the hardcore SC2 fanbase is really frustrating to try to reason with sometimes.
I understand your naivity. When I was a kid, I was naive, too. I am not saying, the foreign scene will not benefit from it. I believe, at the end, Blizzard will do one Global tournament. But I am really pissed off at every blind person, who does not see, how they are trying to screw the Korean scene. Just look at the result. The number of announced retirements which is happening THESE DAYS. And i am sure, it is just the beginning.
Let's rig the system to never give chances to foreigners, screw their possible infrastructure, don't sponsor their tournament trips (it's so great that they do it) but throw more money into Korea, never let upsets happen, seed sOs, Life and others or turn balance in their favor - if they won't qualify once, just make more tournaments for them to increase their chances - and we'll have the perfect StarCraft we can possibly get. I love Korean scene. It's sad to see players I rooted for go. And while I understand that fans can leave the game and move on with their favorite players leaving, like it happened with IdrA, it's the game that is played, not players.
I feel people against the system hate the system so much because they pity Koreans having too strong competition in their own region. I don't know what to think about it. It's like boycotting football world cup because your favorite team from South America didn't qualify.
And again, the main problem this system has it's that it is introduced too late. And again with the world cup analogy, it's like taking out one slot from mentioned CONMEBOL (South America) in favor of CONCACAF (North and Central America with Carribean). It arguably sucks for the overall quality of the game in the big tournament happening every four years, having one less team from super-competitive region in favor for other, but it creates a possibility of sparking more motivation and raising base skill and interest in the second. Can you imagine the outrage it would create in football, if it happened there? Can you even imagine how many potential talent in South America is wasted because of the local competition? Isn't that - as someone here keeps saying - "racist"? Blizzcon should be a world summary of players, become an incentive for players, the dream they have. If you dislike the system so much, ignore WCS and watch only GSL/SSL with Proleague. Watch only the Copa America. I will definitely watch all of them because I love them, but I would like to see local scenes rising too.
Wow, I edited that post a lot.
1. Your soccer analogy is not very good. Conmebol gets way more spots at the WC than Concacaf. And there's little discussion about changing this. Actually, the only major shift in WC spots I can remember was taking away the last spot from Oceania. Mainly because they were too weak (-> And Australia switched to Asia). Yes, every region is still represented, but not every region with the same amount of spots.
2. The problem with the Blizzard system isn't that they try to support the foreign scene. The problem isn't either that they give WC-spots and money to the foreign scene. The problem is that they give the same amlunt of spots and probably MORE money to the weaker region. In soccer terms that's like giving Tahiti the same amount of money for winning the Oceania Championship as Spain for winning the European one. Or giving Oceania 5 spots at the world championship. That's never gonna happen. For good reason!
Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all.
The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry.
There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue?
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yep. That's how it should be. But: Nowhere in the world does an American Football player even get close to the income of an American one. And that's just justified. + no one would argue that 50% of the teams at the Super Bowl (well... 1) has to be non-American. Guess why.
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all.
The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry.
There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue?
1. Well, not really. If a good South African player comes up (assuming they play it. No idea if they do, tbh), like really good, he'll play in America at one point. Therefore South Africa spent a lot of money for a player that just left as soon as the time was right.
2. In Tennis they let everyone play everywhere. There are bigger tournaments and there are smaller tournaments and depending on how big the tournament is, the more stacked the lineup. That's how it should be. Blizzard came up with a system, where the top 16 of the world would not be allowed to play in any Grand Slam tournaments (and yes, Tennis had this system once as well (Only amateurs allowed in GS-tournaments). They changed away for a really good reason.)
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yep. That's how it should be. But: Nowhere in the world does an American Football player even get close to the income of an American one. And that's just justified. + no one would argue that 50% of the teams at the Super Bowl (well... 1) has to be non-American. Guess why.
On December 22 2015 03:41 DinoMight wrote: Have to agree with everything said in this article. I can't fathom how a bunch of foreigners playing against each other is remotely interesting. Why would you actively chose to watch something that is worse?
It's like saying, you know what, fuck the Premier League, I'd rather watch South African league football. For a small group of South Africans that could make sense. But I don't see why you'd want to banish all the best players in the world into a void simply because of their passport...
1) Yes, people in south africa probably like to follow south african teams, despite them being worse than (say) Spanish teams. So now replace south Africa with "everything outside Korea", and you have to understand that Blizzard want to cater to that demographic.
2) I don't think that the soccer (or any real sport) analogies is a good idea in general, as they are so different, but even in soccer most national leagues (I don't know about south africa specifically though...) have restriction on how many foreigners are allowed to play in the teams. You are (most likely) not allowed to take a Spanish division 2 team and go and sweep the money from the SA national league.
You can actually kind of do this with American football. The best league, best players, best country are all... American. Most non-US leagues have limits on letting Americans play. This is all intended to promote good competition within the local scenes. Some people watch because they want to see all the technical aspects ("I only want to watch the best"). Others watch because they're cheering for someone specific to win.
Yeah, that's a better example, but I still don't think it can be applied directly to sc2. I think the real-life sport analogy falls mainly on the online-nature of the sport here. A US American football player in South Africa will live and train in SA, and thus helps build and improve the local scene. While for sc2 it is perfectly possible for a Korean to live, play and train in Korea, but go abroad to "sweep the money", without contributing much to the local scene at all.
The money South Africa spends on sc2 tournaments will in practice end up in Korean team houses, while money SA spends on American football will still stay in the local scene. In a way it's a kind of trade-limitation to promote local industry.
There is also the difference between team-sports and individual sports. Does a Korean sc2 player correspond to a single US player, or an entire US team? Not clear. I guess tennis is the best comparison if you insist on a RL sport. How do weak tennis nations handle this issue?
1. Well, not really. If a good South African player comes up (assuming they play it. No idea if they do, tbh), like really good, he'll play in America at one point. Therefore South Africa spent a lot of money for a player that just left as soon as the time was right.
2. In Tennis they let everyone play everywhere. There are bigger tournaments and there are smaller tournaments and depending on how big the tournament is, the more stacked the lineup. That's how it should be. Blizzard came up with a system, where the top 16 of the world would not be allowed to play in any Grand Slam tournaments (and yes, Tennis had this system once as well (Only amateurs allowed in GS-tournaments). They changed away for a really good reason.)
It's big news in the community that a player with Finnish roots is playing football. Even Finnish NHL players get a lot of local media coverage. That turns into great PR for growing the sport locally.
I do agree that the money distribution could be mor appropriate..
However, I think one of the biggest thing to consider is also the fan base. A majority of viewers are western. The changes can't just be for players.
I rarely post on here, but this is my TL;DR 2 cents. Now, this is from a middle aged lawyer who grew up playing this game back in 1998 (and Warcraft 2 before that), a true OG if you will. Let me make one thing clear before I start: I'm not telling anyone to "get off my lawn." It is not my lawn anymore and you can do with it what you want as I have kids and only get to see this stuff from the sidelines anyway. That being said, I will attempt to give you my explanation for why this system is bad for the game, given almost 20 years of playing and watching Blizzard games.
It saddens me so much to see Blizzard throw the professional scene of this game into the toilet by tossing money at players who don't have the mindset or preparation to be professionals. They have mistakenly come to believe that the difference between professionals and amateurs is money. It is not.
The primary difference between Koreans and non-Koreans at this stage in the game is this: While there are exceptions on both sides, the Koreans contain the only true professional Starcraft players in the world who prepare like professionals and treat playing the game as a profession. We watch the Korean leagues because the level of skill is simply unmatched. Proleague is so fun because you get to watch back benchers spend inordinate amounts of time practicing one build, for one specific match to knock out a giant (and they succeed with surprising frequency!). Think about that kind of dedication. Most of those B teamers aren't paid, yet they sometimes spend an entire week (or more!) to prepare for a single map, a single opponent. The game in their hands becomes sublime, a testament to the saying that "every calling is great when greatly pursued."
Now you are asking yourself, what the hell is this old fuck talking about, why isn't someone who gets paid to do something a professional at it? Good question, dear reader. The difference between a professional and an amateur has nothing to do with pay or skill or results, it is, as I mentioned earlier, a mindset. In my industry (law), this means a few things. It means being borderline psychotic about how much I know about what I do (e.g. I am always looking to learn more about what I do and how to do it better). I constantly read trade publications, law review articles, decisions from higher courts, etc. so that my clients are never represented by a lawyer who does not know the law. It means I am available at all times to serve my clients. My clients can expect that I will pick up the phone at 3 am if they call me and are in trouble. It means there is no problem I will not figure out how to handle for them. If they call me and need a solution to a legal issue I've never dealt with, I will either (1) assemble a team in my firm who are experts in that area or (2) I will become an expert myself, regardless of how many sleepless nights that takes or (3) if 1 and 2 are impossible, find someone who will be able to serve my client at the level they are accustomed to. It means that I will work over Christmas on a motion to be filed the Monday after one of their employees steals company secrets to make sure that their competitors never obtain a key market advantage. It means I identify with my client completely. What is in their interest is in my interest, by definition. It means I will never embarrass my client with my actions. E.g., they will never see me in front of a judge saying that I failed to prepare for a hearing or that I do not know which judge dissented on an obscure case that I cite in my brief. This is not because I am being paid to do this. I did this long before clients ever paid me a premium to do these things and, instead, it is THE CAUSE of my success. I prepare obsessively while other people hope for the best. Intelligently designed practice, repeatable processes for betterment, and HARD WORK are the primary things that separate us from greatness.
Applying this to SC2 players, what would a true SC2 pro look like? Well, I can give you a pretty good example of what this wouldn't look like -- Lilbow. Lilbow went into the biggest match of his life and admitted he did not prepare for it. This is akin to me getting in front of a judge and blaming a blown hearing on a lack of preparation. That is the best the foreign SC2 scene has to offer, apparently. In my industry, I would be fired on the spot and possibly disbarred (e.g. prevented from ever practicing law again). Here, the foreigner scene largely came out in support of him (most shocking to me was Catz) and there wasn't so much as a peep from Blizzard when he impugned the integrity of their biggest event. Now, while it is going too far to say that he's a bad person or should be reviled, what it does say about him is that he is not a professional and shouldn't be allowed to masquerade as such. A professional puts his best preparation, his best effort, into every single job not because there is some expectation of winning or getting paid, but because to fail to do so would be a black mark on his character. How could my clients ever trust me to do my best again if, even once, I did not give them everything I had? Again, if people do not want SC2 to be a truly professional scene, that is fine play on this beautiful lawn that was once mine, but stop pretending that behavior like Lilbow's is compatible with professionalism. The NFL/MLB/NBA would suspend any player who told the media he didn't prepare before a playoff match because he wanted to avoid injury and rest up before his big contract signing in the off season. If we want to be taken seriously like those other professional sports, the players have to act in a similar fashion. And that brings me to my final point -- the only place where a majority of "pros" behave in that fashion is Korea, though my guess is that this system will lead to the slow demise of that scene.
So, contrast Lilbow with someone like, say, ForGG. Name the last day you can remember ForGG not streaming and grinding away at this game. When was the last stream you didn't see him trying out new ideas, tweaking builds, etc.? I can't even fathom a guess. And I would bet you that isn't the totality of the time he spends practicing the game. This is because for him the game is a vocation, a profession. To fail to prepare is not just losing a tournament or some money, it would be failing himself and his entire vocation. Contrast this with EU/NA "pros" who are constantly taking breaks for school or because they are burned out. Good for them, enjoy that work life balance. But do not tell me that you are a professional if grinding at your job 24/7/365 isn't what you want to do.
Now you may be, though probably aren't, wondering what my solution would be since I've bitched so much. The best solution I can think of would be for Blizzard to straight up bankroll 2-3 foreign teams. Pay for salaries, team houses, and most importantly, Korean coaches with high level local language proficiency. Maybe 1 in the EU, 1 in NA, and 1 in China. I will be honest that I do not know much about coaches these days, so I don't know who would even fit the bill, but Coach Park comes to mind. If translators are needed, pay for that too. Require in their contracts that the players live at the team houses 24-7 with specified breaks for vacation and strict policies regarding failure to practice. Regulate everything from practice to food to exercise and see if EU/NA pros can't be better than KR. Regardless, that would do more to address the fundamental problem than this poorly thought out gutting of Korean Starcraft, the best part of the pro scene as it exists today. The problem is a lack of preparation and professional work ethic on the part of EU/NA pros, not prize money.
TL;DR: Money does not make someone a professional. You either behave like one, prepare like one, or you do not. EU/NA pros, with a few notable exceptions, are amateurs. Throwing money at them will not make them professionals unless their underlying ethic is altered fundamentally. The average anonymous, unpaid B-teamer on a KESPA team prepares and behaves more like a professional than most top foreigners. The solution is to institute training solutions like those in Korea. Good life advice: if you are not the best at something, find what the best do and copy it shamelessly.
You know Danza as great as that post and how many of us said the same thing many times over.
The train was out of the station long ago and Blizzard missed it's mark. No matter what you do now the game is just going coast like all old releases. You release all the expansions you want. It's just a matter of time.
The game missed it's opportunity to ramp up long ago. there's nothing you can do to inject new life into the thing
BW was just perfect timing for an economy getting it's internet infrastructure in place. I have a hard time believing another RTS will capture an audience like that ever again for that long a time.
Oh yeah and Danza, you shouldn't be surprised by CatZ showing support for foreigners because that's sort of what he does around here. If you couldn't tell he was one of those guys preaching for a new system that was kinder to the foreign scene to begin with. He's made so many posts about it he sounds like a broken record and we all know in the end it won't change much of anything in terms of viewership except for put a few extra dollars in the pockets of the foreigners.
Ofc they want to make a little more money playing a game they will put some time and effort into once in a while. When they do put a lot of heart and soul into training they still have a hard time getting the results they want.
RTS games weren't meant for those looking for fame the easy way. Heck, it's even frigging hard to make it in LoL with the old boys club and fact of the matter is you need to find a good team with some actual chemistry.
Esports wasn't meant to be easy and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
In the majority of the society, "professional" does not require that you work 24/7. That is called poor work-life balance in most areas.
In the end it doesn't matter much which players we assign the label "professional" to. What blizzard wants to do is to use their money to create a thriving scene, in and outside of Korea. (So that they can earn more money from sales.) If it were best achieved by donating money to a bunch of lazy hippies that play coop once a week, Blizzard would do that. This concepts of "a true professional" doesn't carry any value by itself here. It's whatever can get the attention of as many viewers as possible.
I agree with you in that I like watching the Koreans play because they are just so damn good, and that some foreigners come across as spoiled brats in comparison. Many Koreans seem to share a similar view, that a "true progamer" has to completely give up their life for the game. But that probably doesn't go for the majority of the potential viewers, which will be very casual foreigners.
But can those changes attract more viewers? Especially foreigners that watch foreign tournaments? Most people already have they point of view that they prefer watching Koreans because the average skill level is higher. I just hope for more ads or news article on gaming related sites about SC2 tournaments.. That might help making people like me interested in watching a tournament. People that played/play Starcraft (maybe even new ones), that watch a variety of esports tournaments but are too lazy to go search for schedules by themselves. And with viewers comes the money.
On December 23 2015 20:20 Ein0r wrote: But can those changes attract more viewers? Especially foreigners that watch foreign tournaments? Most people already have they point of view that they prefer watching Koreans because the average skill level is higher. I just hope for more ads or news article on gaming related sites about SC2 tournaments.. That might help making people like me interested in watching a tournament. People that played/play Starcraft (maybe even new ones), that watch a variety of esports tournaments but are too lazy to go search for schedules by themselves. And with viewers comes the money.
Only time will tell. Ads are important as well as you say. sc2 has been in decline for some time, so we probably shouldn't expect a huge sudden increase even if it works well. Maybe it can break the decline to flatten it out a bit. We should also take into account that the TL community is much more Korea focused than the target group blizzzard aims at, so people here (including me) will be a unrepresentatively annoyed at this change.
Hello, after my read of the article I was left with the impression that players who used to ladder on Korea (but weren't actually living in Korea) now have to play on their own server ...
But on the Blizzard's annoucement, I read they had to win 100 games per month on their server.
Hell, 100 games, seriously? I mean pro gamers play an average of what ... 30-40 games a day? That means with a 50% win rate (and of course it should be a higher percentage for obious reasons), they only have to play around 5-6 days on their server, and they have 25 days left to train on whichever server they want, no? So how much of a constraint is that really?
On December 24 2015 01:06 Trizztein1 wrote: Hello, after my read of the article I was left with the impression that players who used to ladder on Korea (but weren't actually living in Korea) now have to play on their own server ...
But on the Blizzard's annoucement, I read they had to win 100 games per month on their server.
Hell, 100 games, seriously? I mean pro gamers play an average of what ... 30-40 games a day? That means with a 50% win rate (and of course it should be a higher percentage for obious reasons), they only have to play around 5-6 days on their server, and they have 25 days left to train on whichever server they want, no? So how much of a constraint is that really?
Or did I miss the point?
Thank you
Well not everyone is fulltime progamer. Some people are genuinely smart and are capable being top32/16 with only ~150 ladder victories.
I really dont see why anyone thinks that watching lower calibre players in any competition is somehow better than watching the best of the best go at it. I understand the need for change but I feel this is perhaps too much.
If Koreans really are that good at smashing foreigners then foreigners need to step it up! (We know that top previous foreigners like Snute, Bunny, Stephano, Lilbow etc.. have at times been very close in skill level to koreans so its TOTALLY POSSIBLE!) Koreans don't have some magical gift from the heavens, they have dedication and real practice and training environments. The US and EU scenes need to merge and make one super team to try to combat koreans.
On December 24 2015 21:28 CommanderBolt wrote: I really dont see why anyone thinks that watching lower calibre players in any competition is somehow better than watching the best of the best go at it. I understand the need for change but I feel this is perhaps too much.
If Koreans really are that good at smashing foreigners then foreigners need to step it up! (We know that top previous foreigners like Snute, Bunny, Stephano, Lilbow etc.. have at times been very close in skill level to koreans so its TOTALLY POSSIBLE!) Koreans don't have some magical gift from the heavens, they have dedication and real practice and training environments. The US and EU scenes need to merge and make one super team to try to combat koreans.
There has to be realistic incentive for players for a true infrastructure to grow. Koreans don't have some magical gift, but almost all of the Koreans that are good at smashing foreigners benefited from professional environment one way or another. Something that foreign scene arguably never had. It was all about making a dream come true, to make money out of games and some enjoyed just that. Most of the foreigners that you mentioned were practicing in Korea for some amount of time, not sure about Lilbow and Bunny.
Both sides of the fence look like professional and amateur, one has a true environment and the second was scrambling in their own homes being overwhelmed of what Korea had to offer to their players. Exactly as you said, dedication, practice and training environments. You can't have a dedication from a community, that has no incentive, no hope of being up top and gaining money to sustain themselves. There is no chance of "magical gift from the heavens" for foreign scene making it professional all of a sudden and let it step it up like you suggest. This new system for me brings hope for the future of both scenes. Korean top players sweeping foreign tournaments were never good in my opinion. Maybe for viewers, wanting to see how government-backed Korean playerbase operates, while silently smashing hopes of any foreigner.
It feels unfair, but it feels less unfair than previous, "non-racist" systems taking away any incentive but for those who were very good very early.
And about Stephano, you forgot that he had his peak when KeSPA wasn't transitioned to SC2.
For the same reason people watch MLS, or American College Football. They could easily watch Bundesliga, Premier League, Primera Division or the NFL, so why bother with those below average players? Because for some reason they enjoy it.
I am not sure if this was posted already, but there was a Soundcloud comment from TotalBiscuit, which sums it up pretty good in my opinion.
On December 24 2015 21:53 Ein0r wrote: For the same reason people watch MLS, or American College Football. They could easily watch Bundesliga, Premier League, Primera Division or the NFL, so why bother with those below average players? Because for some reason they enjoy it.
I am not sure if this was posted already, but there was a Soundcloud comment from TotalBiscuit, which sums it up pretty good in my opinion.
People watch MLS or American college football because those teams and players come from the same country they are from so they are more interested. This is not the case in tournaments where EVERYONE BUT KOREANS are allowed. That are simply international tournaments where the best players are locked out from.
That's what the WCS Global Events are for. The format is fine, the only thing i am a bit more concerned is the 50/50 split on the Global Finals since this is not fair at the moment for Koreans. But if you would take Final slots away from them at a later date because the foreigners get stronger, they would be even more pissed. I am thinking of a point system as they have it for the Football Champions League. But no clue how to make it fair. Especially since there are only two parties involved: Koreans and "The other guys somehwere else, maybe".
No matter a change, by definition it will always have its pros and cons.
My opinion is that SC2 needed a change, something fresh. And if SC2 was "dying" with the past format, I don't mind trying something different and hope for the best.
I like been part of SC2 because it feels like a "private" family, not for the casuals. But I wouldn't mind SC2 being as popular as LoL or CS. But lets see what happens.
Lets just all be supportive that the least we can do.
Now "The best foreigners" will be like you when are a geographically limited kid and claim to be "the best of your neighborhood", then getting one or maybe few more chances to test your level against the really best players in the world (vs Koreans at BlizzCon)
The only way I would like to see tournaments like those regional things is if the games show new things, or unorthodox gameplay, if the reduced skill is compensed with at least a variety of builds or situations making worth those games to watch and enjoy, because watching a mimic of a perfect thing but lower in level is not fun for me at least.
I hope this thing works for everyone, and not only for few players trying to make a career with the game.
Now "The best foreigners" will be like you when are a geographically limited kid and claim to be "the best of your neighborhood", then getting one or maybe few more chances to test your level against the really best players in the world (vs Koreans at BlizzCon)
There you go, your very solid plot for a SC themed anime!
The only way I would like to see tournaments like those regional things is if the games show new things, or unorthodox gameplay, if the reduced skill is compensed with at least a variety of builds or situations making worth those games to watch and enjoy, because watching a mimic of a perfect thing but lower in level is not fun for me at least.
The same goes for League of Legends. As long as you have a good narration and it is entertaining to watch people will do so. In the end EU/NA doesnt stand a chance against Korean teams, but they are quite fun to watch because of their personalitys, good marketing and/or entertaining presentation. If they can improve this, the foreign narrative scene has at least a chance to attract sponsors, even if they wont be compete for WCS Global Finals' half final or final matches.
On December 26 2015 08:56 alukarD wrote: No matter a change, by definition it will always have its pros and cons.
My opinion is that SC2 needed a change, something fresh. And if SC2 was "dying" with the past format, I don't mind trying something different and hope for the best.
I like been part of SC2 because it feels like a "private" family, not for the casuals. But I wouldn't mind SC2 being as popular as LoL or CS. But lets see what happens.
Lets just all be supportive that the least we can do.
Why? I won't support any foreigner in this system. Nor their teams.
Koreans are not genetically better at RTS games or archery. They are the best because they devote unimaginable amount of time at practice everyday sacrificing their leisure, and it applies to every single good Korean progamers. Hell, I think even MC who retired practices more than some foreign progamers. Just ask Lilbow how much his half a year of practice amounted to as opposed to Koreans who played LOTV for a month and half by now.
Blizzard has made a decision to give more competing chances to progamers who practiced less in general. What's the merit of this new system? That foreigners have more personality? Because personality makes SC2 great to watch, duh.
Why don't they just go all the way and give quota for gold or platinum league female 'progamers' already in several Korean teams as cheerleaders? It would be nice to have 8 female gamers in WCS 2016 in the round of 16, you know, for the sake of interesting drama. They should make matches scripted too if they want more personality in the scene. I can definitely enjoy Naniwa smacking MMA's head with keyboard after losing a series and stealing the tournament trophy.
Sigh. I guess I will only watch Korean tournaments and WCS global finals next year. That's only 1/4 of what I've watched in 2015.
Both sides of the fence look like professional and amateur, one has a true environment and the second was scrambling in their own homes being overwhelmed of what Korea had to offer to their players. Exactly as you said, dedication, practice and training environments. You can't have a dedication from a community, that has no incentive, no hope of being up top and gaining money to sustain themselves. There is no chance of "magical gift from the heavens" for foreign scene making it professional all of a sudden and let it step it up like you suggest. This new system for me brings hope for the future of both scenes. Korean top players sweeping foreign tournaments were never good in my opinion. Maybe for viewers, wanting to see how government-backed Korean playerbase operates, while silently smashing hopes of any foreigner.
It feels unfair, but it feels less unfair than previous, "non-racist" systems taking away any incentive but for those who were very good very early.
And about Stephano, you forgot that he had his peak when KeSPA wasn't transitioned to SC2.
Wait. I thought Korean government was against spending too much time on a computer (haven't they gotten a law prohibiting playing online gaming between 12 and 6 in the morning or something?). But on the other hand they directly support professionnal teams? Or am I getting something wrong? I thought the strenght of the Kespa teams relied on the money that the organisation itself solely made from sponsors/viewers etc. Thank you.
On December 24 2015 01:06 Trizztein1 wrote: Hello, after my read of the article I was left with the impression that players who used to ladder on Korea (but weren't actually living in Korea) now have to play on their own server ...
But on the Blizzard's annoucement, I read they had to win 100 games per month on their server.
Hell, 100 games, seriously? I mean pro gamers play an average of what ... 30-40 games a day? That means with a 50% win rate (and of course it should be a higher percentage for obious reasons), they only have to play around 5-6 days on their server, and they have 25 days left to train on whichever server they want, no? So how much of a constraint is that really?
Or did I miss the point?
Thank you
Well not everyone is fulltime progamer. Some people are genuinely smart and are capable being top32/16 with only ~150 ladder victories.
You talk about top 32/16, you mean on NA ladder, right? If you're talking about a global top 32/16 position in terms of WCS points any given year, I'd really be curious to know who it is you're talking about. Not that I'm not ready to believe you, though.
On December 24 2015 01:06 Trizztein1 wrote: Hello, after my read of the article I was left with the impression that players who used to ladder on Korea (but weren't actually living in Korea) now have to play on their own server ...
But on the Blizzard's annoucement, I read they had to win 100 games per month on their server.
Hell, 100 games, seriously? I mean pro gamers play an average of what ... 30-40 games a day? That means with a 50% win rate (and of course it should be a higher percentage for obious reasons), they only have to play around 5-6 days on their server, and they have 25 days left to train on whichever server they want, no? So how much of a constraint is that really?
Or did I miss the point?
Thank you
Well not everyone is fulltime progamer. Some people are genuinely smart and are capable being top32/16 with only ~150 ladder victories.
You talk about top 32/16, you mean on NA ladder, right? If you're talking about a global top 32/16 position in terms of WCS points any given year, I'd really be curious to know who it is you're talking about. Not that I'm not ready to believe you, though.
top32/16 places at WCS. I think Heromarine and Gungfubanda just play this game without any international aim. They are just "good" so that they can attend such tournaments and get top32/16 WCS results. Maybe Showtime too. They all are focusing to high school/university.
I wonder if the prize money this year will be overall larger than last year. While they are paying out more per tournament, there will be fewer GSL/SSL tournaments as a whole. Has anyone done the math on this? I am sure it is some what speculative as we do not know all the tournaments planned for 2016 yet.
But it would be safe to assume less earnings for a Korean player losing access to several tournaments due to new rules?
On December 29 2015 01:08 Prolet wrote: I wonder if the prize money this year will be overall larger than last year. While they are paying out more per tournament, there will be fewer GSL/SSL tournaments as a whole. Has anyone done the math on this? I am sure it is some what speculative as we do not know all the tournaments planned for 2016 yet.
But it would be safe to assume less earnings for a Korean player losing access to several tournaments due to new rules?
The previous GSL prize pool was $93,135/season, the new one is ~$200,000/season. The StarLeague prizepool roughly doubled too.
On December 23 2015 06:14 Pwny_Danza wrote: I rarely post on here, but this is my TL;DR 2 cents. Now, this is from a middle aged lawyer who grew up playing this game back in 1998 (and Warcraft 2 before that), a true OG if you will. Let me make one thing clear before I start: I'm not telling anyone to "get off my lawn." It is not my lawn anymore and you can do with it what you want as I have kids and only get to see this stuff from the sidelines anyway. That being said, I will attempt to give you my explanation for why this system is bad for the game, given almost 20 years of playing and watching Blizzard games.
It saddens me so much to see Blizzard throw the professional scene of this game into the toilet by tossing money at players who don't have the mindset or preparation to be professionals. They have mistakenly come to believe that the difference between professionals and amateurs is money. It is not.
The primary difference between Koreans and non-Koreans at this stage in the game is this: While there are exceptions on both sides, the Koreans contain the only true professional Starcraft players in the world who prepare like professionals and treat playing the game as a profession. We watch the Korean leagues because the level of skill is simply unmatched. Proleague is so fun because you get to watch back benchers spend inordinate amounts of time practicing one build, for one specific match to knock out a giant (and they succeed with surprising frequency!). Think about that kind of dedication. Most of those B teamers aren't paid, yet they sometimes spend an entire week (or more!) to prepare for a single map, a single opponent. The game in their hands becomes sublime, a testament to the saying that "every calling is great when greatly pursued."
Now you are asking yourself, what the hell is this old fuck talking about, why isn't someone who gets paid to do something a professional at it? Good question, dear reader. The difference between a professional and an amateur has nothing to do with pay or skill or results, it is, as I mentioned earlier, a mindset. In my industry (law), this means a few things. It means being borderline psychotic about how much I know about what I do (e.g. I am always looking to learn more about what I do and how to do it better). I constantly read trade publications, law review articles, decisions from higher courts, etc. so that my clients are never represented by a lawyer who does not know the law. It means I am available at all times to serve my clients. My clients can expect that I will pick up the phone at 3 am if they call me and are in trouble. It means there is no problem I will not figure out how to handle for them. If they call me and need a solution to a legal issue I've never dealt with, I will either (1) assemble a team in my firm who are experts in that area or (2) I will become an expert myself, regardless of how many sleepless nights that takes or (3) if 1 and 2 are impossible, find someone who will be able to serve my client at the level they are accustomed to. It means that I will work over Christmas on a motion to be filed the Monday after one of their employees steals company secrets to make sure that their competitors never obtain a key market advantage. It means I identify with my client completely. What is in their interest is in my interest, by definition. It means I will never embarrass my client with my actions. E.g., they will never see me in front of a judge saying that I failed to prepare for a hearing or that I do not know which judge dissented on an obscure case that I cite in my brief. This is not because I am being paid to do this. I did this long before clients ever paid me a premium to do these things and, instead, it is THE CAUSE of my success. I prepare obsessively while other people hope for the best. Intelligently designed practice, repeatable processes for betterment, and HARD WORK are the primary things that separate us from greatness.
Applying this to SC2 players, what would a true SC2 pro look like? Well, I can give you a pretty good example of what this wouldn't look like -- Lilbow. Lilbow went into the biggest match of his life and admitted he did not prepare for it. This is akin to me getting in front of a judge and blaming a blown hearing on a lack of preparation. That is the best the foreign SC2 scene has to offer, apparently. In my industry, I would be fired on the spot and possibly disbarred (e.g. prevented from ever practicing law again). Here, the foreigner scene largely came out in support of him (most shocking to me was Catz) and there wasn't so much as a peep from Blizzard when he impugned the integrity of their biggest event. Now, while it is going too far to say that he's a bad person or should be reviled, what it does say about him is that he is not a professional and shouldn't be allowed to masquerade as such. A professional puts his best preparation, his best effort, into every single job not because there is some expectation of winning or getting paid, but because to fail to do so would be a black mark on his character. How could my clients ever trust me to do my best again if, even once, I did not give them everything I had? Again, if people do not want SC2 to be a truly professional scene, that is fine play on this beautiful lawn that was once mine, but stop pretending that behavior like Lilbow's is compatible with professionalism. The NFL/MLB/NBA would suspend any player who told the media he didn't prepare before a playoff match because he wanted to avoid injury and rest up before his big contract signing in the off season. If we want to be taken seriously like those other professional sports, the players have to act in a similar fashion. And that brings me to my final point -- the only place where a majority of "pros" behave in that fashion is Korea, though my guess is that this system will lead to the slow demise of that scene.
So, contrast Lilbow with someone like, say, ForGG. Name the last day you can remember ForGG not streaming and grinding away at this game. When was the last stream you didn't see him trying out new ideas, tweaking builds, etc.? I can't even fathom a guess. And I would bet you that isn't the totality of the time he spends practicing the game. This is because for him the game is a vocation, a profession. To fail to prepare is not just losing a tournament or some money, it would be failing himself and his entire vocation. Contrast this with EU/NA "pros" who are constantly taking breaks for school or because they are burned out. Good for them, enjoy that work life balance. But do not tell me that you are a professional if grinding at your job 24/7/365 isn't what you want to do.
Now you may be, though probably aren't, wondering what my solution would be since I've bitched so much. The best solution I can think of would be for Blizzard to straight up bankroll 2-3 foreign teams. Pay for salaries, team houses, and most importantly, Korean coaches with high level local language proficiency. Maybe 1 in the EU, 1 in NA, and 1 in China. I will be honest that I do not know much about coaches these days, so I don't know who would even fit the bill, but Coach Park comes to mind. If translators are needed, pay for that too. Require in their contracts that the players live at the team houses 24-7 with specified breaks for vacation and strict policies regarding failure to practice. Regulate everything from practice to food to exercise and see if EU/NA pros can't be better than KR. Regardless, that would do more to address the fundamental problem than this poorly thought out gutting of Korean Starcraft, the best part of the pro scene as it exists today. The problem is a lack of preparation and professional work ethic on the part of EU/NA pros, not prize money.
TL;DR: Money does not make someone a professional. You either behave like one, prepare like one, or you do not. EU/NA pros, with a few notable exceptions, are amateurs. Throwing money at them will not make them professionals unless their underlying ethic is altered fundamentally. The average anonymous, unpaid B-teamer on a KESPA team prepares and behaves more like a professional than most top foreigners. The solution is to institute training solutions like those in Korea. Good life advice: if you are not the best at something, find what the best do and copy it shamelessly.
Dude, you said that was going to be tldr. Also, while I totally agree with you about everything, you turned your post into 5 paragraphs about why you are a good lawyer. What a waste of time.
What I don't get about all the commentary on the tournaments is that most foreign tournaments would only get a few elite Koreans it was never foreigners playing against the best it was a few elite Koreans trying to survive a gauntlet of lesser talent then everyone sits around and hopes for an upset to make things interesting.
Just look at the last dreamhack sure Bomber played poorly but, the other 2 code S players parting and solar were by far the two best players there even before the tournament started anyone could have looked at and said one combination of those three would be in the finals and what happens they go a combined 32-6 vs the rest of the tournament and stories like this have been common place for sometime.
The biggest reason why I as a spectator stopped following SC2 in HOTS was the fact that usually you could look at the first round of a tournament and pick out the final 4 players due to the huge skill disparity yeah occasionally there would be an upset here or there or someone unexpected would go on a run but, for the most part you knew exactly how the tournament would end up. I didn't want to sit through 5-6 rounds of what essentially amounted to walkovers to see the final result. imo parity is what makes for entertaining leagues not how good the best player is and while this system doesn't quite fix it I feel it is a significant step towards creating that parity.
The biggest reason why I as a spectator stopped following SC2 in HOTS was the fact that usually you could look at the first round of a tournament and pick out the final 4 players due to the huge skill disparity
So the solution is that we lower the skill in the Korean region to maintain it in par with the foreigner region?
The biggest reason why I as a spectator stopped following SC2 in HOTS was the fact that usually you could look at the first round of a tournament and pick out the final 4 players due to the huge skill disparity
So the solution is that we lower the skill in the Korean region to maintain it in par with the foreigner region?
Nope, we ban Korean players and pretend Korea doesn't exist. Problem solved
On December 29 2015 15:58 HiTeK532 wrote: What I don't get about all the commentary on the tournaments is that most foreign tournaments would only get a few elite Koreans it was never foreigners playing against the best it was a few elite Koreans trying to survive a gauntlet of lesser talent then everyone sits around and hopes for an upset to make things interesting.
Just look at the last dreamhack sure Bomber played poorly but, the other 2 code S players parting and solar were by far the two best players there even before the tournament started anyone could have looked at and said one combination of those three would be in the finals and what happens they go a combined 32-6 vs the rest of the tournament and stories like this have been common place for sometime.
The biggest reason why I as a spectator stopped following SC2 in HOTS was the fact that usually you could look at the first round of a tournament and pick out the final 4 players due to the huge skill disparity yeah occasionally there would be an upset here or there or someone unexpected would go on a run but, for the most part you knew exactly how the tournament would end up. I didn't want to sit through 5-6 rounds of what essentially amounted to walkovers to see the final result. imo parity is what makes for entertaining leagues not how good the best player is and while this system doesn't quite fix it I feel it is a significant step towards creating that parity.
you could do this also with any kind of sports.. so what? there will be always favorites. even its a tourney consisting only of foreigeners you could tell who win it. problem is most foreigeners are just too bad.