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On November 26 2015 01:23 Masemium wrote:I don't believe you  Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 06:57 Topdoller wrote:
Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty. lol, where can I apply? Along with not having any fun with the campaign, I sure wouldn't mind a refund  Anyways, the Swarm Host. This unit revolves around one of my most hated RTS mechanics: timed life temporary units. They are just super hard to balance. The Swarm Host should just be a front line factory that trains units in batches of 4. Something like: - Locust: 0.5 supply each, 2 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals. Permanent units. Probably anti-ground only. - Flying Locust: 1 supply each, 4 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals, 100 gas. Permanent units. Anti-ground and anti-air. - Locust Mauler (?): 2 supply each, 4 supply total for 2 units. 200 minerals, 200 gas. Permanent units. Heavy melee tank. You can then play with cooldowns and the unit-hatches-from-egg timers to buff or nerf the thing. I kinda also want the same thing happen with the Infestor's Infested Terrans. Just make them 1 or 2 supply, cost minerals and they are permanent units. Brood Lord can stay as it is.
thats a good idea actually.
im currently working on a mod where i was planning to give the swarm host the role of a carrier for ground units - you can build locusts that will then automatically attack targets around the swarm host
dunno if it will work in practice though, havent gotten to actually designing that unit yet
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I think swarm host will always have a niche role. In HotS, it was considered a gimmick and extremely map dependent, but I'm pretty sure it has like 100% win rate in korean pro games lol (of course, the sample size of games is very small).
The cost changes and the removal of the flying locusts upgrade actually helps out a lot, as it removes the amount of time you're sitting behind 100 spines and just praying you don't die. Of course, the maps atm and the overall pace doesn't particularly suit swarm hosts, but over time that may change. It's also worth noting that the economy changes in general is great for zerg, which is an indirect buff for swarm host in some ways (although probably less than other zerg units)
Now that zerg has some really great tools like the ravager and the fucking lurker, I can imagine a HotS-esque mass spines flying locusts strategy, but instead of making muta/ling swarm host like Byul and Rogue did, maybe a ravager lurker defence might work. But it might still be worth building a spire anyway which forces the protoss to make a big gamble if they want to make disruptors (i've always been a huge advocate of zerg just building every god damn building they can and forcing the protoss to make an educated guess, and i think it would be very effective with this style)
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I was hoping Blizz would do something cool with the SH, like make it into a mobile Dark Swarm generator or something. Instead it was moved to a harassment role that other units do better. Right now the SH has no niche in the game.
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After trying using swarm host for a few games here is what i think:
1)zvz:Swarm host are VERY good there!.Its depend alot on the game style but if the game focus on roach lurker hydra fights defently build them since on these kind of game you can stay defensive with the lurkers and you can defently get these 1000/500 for 5 swarm host.On 1 game i killed the enemy tech and expo with 5 swarm host in overlords and he could do nothing since he had no air unites so if thats the kind of game,dont rush swarm host but if you get some extra money build them and you wont be sorry for that.(On muta fights games dont try to use them they may cause 1 good attack no more its waste of money)
2)zvt:This is the worst match up for swarm host.First of all vs bio there its almost impossible to find the money to build them since bio dont let you take alot of expands and also most bio plays will have some liberators with them that can snipe the drops so i wont recommend it unless you are far ahead and even then the terran can just lift off the CC or repair it so very minimal damage.Better use some baneling drops and even lurkers drop it will do much more.
Vs mech they can work but its depend alot of how the game goes on.If the terran tutrle up and give u space for macro up and tech up i would recommend using them espacilly on big maps to try and stop terran from expand so i would say swarm host can work but dont always use them.
3)zvp:Swarm host can work here but it depends mostly on the game.On games where protoss is very agressive dont build them.Also if protoss build air unites it can be very risky to use them.Blink stalkers can also make a trap for them but on games where you are ahead and protoss has to play more defensive you can make a fake attack and snipe the other base with the swarm host.You can also punish very greedy protoss or prevent them from expanding.I would say if you want to use swarm host its up to you to know when to build them.
To conclude:SH best use are on zvz where the bases far and not defended.On zvp they have their place but not every game and its up to you to decide if you want to spend the money.On zvt:They are the worst them and i would use them vs a very defensive terran or to prevent expanding so maybe on about 10% of the games.
I think that swarm host could use a little buff but we may only know if people will test it out!
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On November 27 2015 18:52 wrj wrote:
After trying using swarm host for a few games here is what i think:
1)zvz:Swarm host are VERY good there!.Its depend alot on the game style but if the game focus on roach lurker hydra fights defently build them since on these kind of game you can stay defensive with the lurkers and you can defently get these 1000/500 for 5 swarm host.On 1 game i killed the enemy tech and expo with 5 swarm host in overlords and he could do nothing since he had no air unites so if thats the kind of game,dont rush swarm host but if you get some extra money build them and you wont be sorry for that.(On muta fights games dont try to use them they may cause 1 good attack no more its waste of money)
2)zvt:This is the worst match up for swarm host.First of all vs bio there its almost impossible to find the money to build them since bio dont let you take alot of expands and also most bio plays will have some liberators with them that can snipe the drops so i wont recommend it unless you are far ahead and even then the terran can just lift off the CC or repair it so very minimal damage.Better use some baneling drops and even lurkers drop it will do much more.
Vs mech they can work but its depend alot of how the game goes on.If the terran tutrle up and give u space for macro up and tech up i would recommend using them espacilly on big maps to try and stop terran from expand so i would say swarm host can work but dont always use them.
3)zvp:Swarm host can work here but it depends mostly on the game.On games where protoss is very agressive dont build them.Also if protoss build air unites it can be very risky to use them.Blink stalkers can also make a trap for them but on games where you are ahead and protoss has to play more defensive you can make a fake attack and snipe the other base with the swarm host.You can also punish very greedy protoss or prevent them from expanding.I would say if you want to use swarm host its up to you to know when to build them.
To conclude:SH best use are on zvz where the bases far and not defended.On zvp they have their place but not every game and its up to you to decide if you want to spend the money.On zvt:They are the worst them and i would use them vs a very defensive terran or to prevent expanding so maybe on about 10% of the games.
I think that swarm host could use a little buff but we may only know if people will test it out!
How would you compare them to a speedling runby in zvz?
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Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
Thanks!
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On November 27 2015 21:44 SC2Toastie wrote:
Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
Thanks!
Sorry about the "Definitely".
About the replay-why everything need to be proven?
I would i spend my time to write things i did not test?
There was a huge topic about carrier on the beta and people over and over said i need to show them replays to prove my point but guess what,2 nerfs to carrier occurred on the beta so i dont like spending time on finding specific replay to show my points.
I tried using swarm host for some games and i wrote what i exprienced.Also you cant say i worte these things just for the reason of "i am zerg so i think zerg just need buffs".I wrote a fair comment on what i experienced and ended it with the bad points i see on swarm host and that they may need a buff, so to know for sure people need to test them out.Just you know i hate the rush for replays to back things up i like the more kind of share your experience to help blizzard make the right choices because specific replay really shows nothing
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SoCal8910 Posts
On November 24 2015 18:14 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote:
This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
this is EXACTLY why no one goes swarm hosts.
the only viable matchup is pvp but you do not want to push the game later vs a protoss..you want to end the game before they get to their end-game death ball
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The problem with the Swarm Host's design is that the Locust is a fragile, high DPS disposable unit.
What this means is that a small number of Locusts is killed before it can do any real damage. However, once the number of Locusts gets large enough that their collective HP allows them to survive long enough to do some damage, they start doing a LOT of damage.
This means that just a few Swarm Hosts is really bad. But a large, critical mass of Swarm Hosts quickly tips the balance of the game towards their user.
The fix for this is to change the Locust so that it is a tough but low DPS attacker. This will allow a small number of Locusts to do a little bit of chipping damage with each successive wave, and makes Locust groups scale more linearly. Tougher, low-DPS Locusts will consistently do a small amount of damage with each wave, instead of small groups being wiped out with no damage.
Furthermore, the Swarm Host's Locust spawn mechanic should be changed to make the Locust usage more strategic, and less of a binary 'ok the cooldown is up; use it' automatic manuever.
To do this, I think Swarm Hosts should accumulate Locust charges one at a time with a relatively short cooldown on each Locust charge, and be capable of storing a larger number of Locust charges than they can currently spawn. This allows the Zerg player to tailor how large each wave is, with larger waves necessarily causing the delay between waves to be longer.
This also has two good knock-on effects. First, Locusts are very useful as a damage sponge standing in front of other units, and this allows a Zerg to send a Locust wave whenever they want, although if they do it too soon there won't be very many Locusts. And it also allows for skilled Swarm Host usage by good timing of the waves based on the amount of enemies the zerg is going to attack. If the enemy is weak, repeated small waves will aggressively do damage. If the enemy is strong, a larger wave is called for.
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I think swarm hosts would be cool if they were energy based like infestors and infested terrans.
So give Swarm Hosts a 200 energy cap, start with 50 energy, and make their ability to spawn 4 at a time for 50 energy, with a 5-10 second cool down.
Change them from a constant stream to a burst.
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To me, Summoning units periodically, doesnt feel like the swarm - it feels like a Warlock.
Locusts should have cost something and buffed accordingly. Free units in a game of cost efficiency is a huge joke, and its the reason i hate the broodlord.
The carrier is cost efficient, its like paying 25 for a flying marine - thats fine though - as 8 carriers will eat through a lot of recources if you constantly trade in your interceptors.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 29 2015 10:22 killa_robot wrote:
I think swarm hosts would be cool if they were energy based like infestors and infested terrans.
So give Swarm Hosts a 200 energy cap, start with 50 energy, and make their ability to spawn 4 at a time for 50 energy, with a 5-10 second cool down.
Change them from a constant stream to a burst.
Then buff locusts (increase their speed, life time, etc), so those Swarm Hosts will be equal to Oracle/Liberator worker harass
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In terms of harassment the Swarm Host is never, ever going to be as interesting as the humble Mutalisk with its basic attack.
The Swarm Host was intended to be a siege weapon, gradually besieging and dealing damage to a fortified enemy position over time. To do this, the Locust should be a tough, low-DPS unit, and not a squishy, ultra-high-DPS attacker. This will enable it to consistently deal a small amount of damage with each wave.
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On November 29 2015 11:36 ledarsi wrote:
In terms of harassment the Swarm Host is never, ever going to be as interesting as the humble Mutalisk with its basic attack.
The Swarm Host was intended to be a siege weapon, gradually besieging and dealing damage to a fortified enemy position over time. To do this, the Locust should be a tough, low-DPS unit, and not a squishy, ultra-high-DPS attacker. This will enable it to consistently deal a small amount of damage with each wave.
Yeah, it's gone a long way from the original idea back in hots beta, which was to give zerg a siege weapon to force sieged up terran positions to move.
Turns out it did the opposite: forced the terran to bunker up and stay stationary even more, which obviously didn't make for good games.
Solution? Make sure it did its original purpose, for example through your suggestion? Nope, make it an economy harass unit!!! >_>
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On November 29 2015 02:31 wrj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2015 21:44 SC2Toastie wrote:
Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
Thanks! Sorry about the "Definitely". About the replay-why everything need to be proven? I would i spend my time to write things i did not test? There was a huge topic about carrier on the beta and people over and over said i need to show them replays to prove my point but guess what,2 nerfs to carrier occurred on the beta so i dont like spending time on finding specific replay to show my points. I tried using swarm host for some games and i wrote what i exprienced.Also you cant say i worte these things just for the reason of "i am zerg so i think zerg just need buffs".I wrote a fair comment on what i experienced and ended it with the bad points i see on swarm host and that they may need a buff, so to know for sure people need to test them out.Just you know i hate the rush for replays to back things up i like the more kind of share your experience to help blizzard make the right choices because specific replay really shows nothing
I want to see the replays to examine for myself if I deem them effective and what role they played in your victory. Apparantly, you are having the success I'm not experiencing when the game is even and hard-fought. Because of that, I want to look whether you do, or you just use them in a situation you are already ahead in and they have a positive result in that situation alone, which positively affects your general opinion in a wrong way..
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Didn't people also say that infestors where unusable and were too weak to be viable before the bl infestor era?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On November 29 2015 22:44 sabas123 wrote:
Didn't people also say that infestors where unusable and were too weak to be viable before the bl infestor era?
The difference was that Infestors were able to constantly root enemy units and spam infested terrans (stacked energy), while SH can't do that.
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I didn’t see one single use of swarm hosts since the release of LotV. What is going on?
Is there no use for them at all?
At least they are more mobile than before which makes them comparable to disruptors imo, which are a 'one-shot and wait' unit as well. Why does it work for disruptors but not for swarm hosts?
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On December 14 2015 23:38 infii wrote:
I didn’t see one single use of swarm hosts since the release of LotV. What is going on?
Is there no use for them at all?
At least they are more mobile than before which makes them comparable to disruptors imo, which are a 'one-shot and wait' unit as well. Why does it work for disruptors but not for swarm hosts?
They do not work like disruptors because:
- 71 seconds for SH to spawn 2 new locust, locusts can be killed, small amount of locusts are not something that will make the opponent fall back
- 30 seconds cool down for disruptors to spawn nova ball, nova ball can't be killed, nova ball can kill half your army in 3 seconds
Yes they might be used for harass, but then again infestors can do the same while actually helping your army and/or better for harass because they can move while burrowed.
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EPT
