I was a huge fan of old Swarm Hosts, not because they created boring game stalemates, but because of their swarmy design. Sadly that unit turned Heart of the Swarm ending into something boring and not entertaining to watch.
At the end of Heart of the Swarm this unit was redesigned into harassing tool that allows to harass bases from big distance. As I saw, many players instantly claimed them to be useless: flying locusts are very slow, spawn time is very long, and Locust health is lower now. On other side, Swarm Hosts got higher speed and ability to spawn Locusts even unburrowed and while moving.
I'd like to discuss this unit in this thread and understand, are new Swarm Hosts that useless as everyone thinks? I'm not a pro-player, but I'd like to focus on some moments that may make Swarm Hosts viable in their new role.
Speed - 4.13, on creep - 5.37 (off-creep: same speed as Stalker and Warp Prizm, slower than Cyclone, faster than Medivac (without afterburner).
Locust
- Defence: 50 health - Attributes: Light - Biological - Speed: 2.62 in air and off-creep (3.66 on creep) - Damage: 12 damage, 0.43 attack speed (~ 28dps from single Locust, 56 dps from two Locusts)
Everyone may agree and knows that Mutalisks are more viable:
• they are faster • can regenerate health quickly • they feel cheap - just 100 minerals and 100 vespene • they are not dead-supply of your army • can constantly deal damage • can deny drops • can backdoor enemy key units to snipe them, in rare cases
First of all, Mutalisks require Spire that requires 71 seconds to build. Also Spire does not allows to transition to Hive tech.
Infestation Pit requires 36 seconds to build and allows to morph Lair to Hive as well as building Infestors. And getting Hive quickly allows to transition to 3rd upgrade level, Viper and Ultralisk production.
In my opinion, you can harass enemy with small group of Swarm Hosts, like 4-6 or more while quickly rushing into Hive tech. Going Mutalisks delays your Hive tech by a good amount of minerals, vespene and also time.
Keep in mind, that four Swarm Hosts can snipe Nexus / Command center / Hatchery in one volley, if no one disrupts Locusts (i.e. someone protecting the base). Also, Locusts can extremely quickly snipe workers, just Hold-mode them when they landed to to enemy workers and they won't react to Siege tank or overcharged Pylon that is trying to agro Locusts.
The main idea is to utilize SH requirements that allow you to transition to Hive very quickly, by skipping Spire tech and spending resources on other zerg units, upgrades and tech paths.
What do you think? I'd like to remember you how everyone claimed SH to be useless unit early in Heart of the Swarm, and later those swarmy guys gave zergs many wins against Terran mech, against Protoss deathballs and became ultimate unit in ZvZ also.
Who knows, maybe now we should give a chance to Swarm Hosts and utilize them in other area as well as use all their good sides such as safe rush, fast Hive transition, huge Locust DPS and good mobility of Swarm Hosts themselfs.
Sure they're great for harass but you need something that can fight if you're relying on it to hold you over until Hive tech.
Swarm Hosts are good for chipping way at someone cost efficiently, but if the other player just boxes all their units and A-moves you when you start making Swarm Hosts, you're pretty dead!
If you use swarm hosts the way you described, people will see locusts when you decide to harass, ignore it, then attack your base since you won't be able to spawn locusts for a while and will definitely have a smaller army.
Joke unit, they might get used once in a while for funnies when the game is already won. 200 minerals and 100 gas for a major selling point unit of HotS that was nerfed into oblivion along with the infestor.
No wonder Zerg had to stick with Muta + Bling for 5 years, its T2 options have been abysmal until recently.
Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty.
If you build these the game is either already won or already lost, its that bad. it needs another rework to make it a viable unit for its cost
This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
The problem with the Swarm Host is that it isn't a swarmy unit at all. It is a high value unit that is few in number, which is expensive and vulnerable to being picked off.
A Zerg Swarm does not look like Swarm Hosts or Broodlords endlessly spawning trash. A zerg swarm is a ridiculous number of Zerglings and Hydralisks that is a legitimately strong army that costs resources, and with no snipable high value targets, just a whole lot of zerg muscle.
Browder and co. clearly do not understand the way zerg is supposed to work, and think a small number of high supply cost units is "zergy" which is retarded.
The Swarm Host should not have passed the brainstorm stage. Instead basic zerg units should cost less supply, so they can be built in very large numbers.
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
Yes, exactly that, and I saw some people using them in Beta, like Lowko and man... I couldn't believe how good they were at killing Nexus and Command Centers... they don't need to burrow to drop the Locust anyway, and they can be set from far away, but mainly behind cliffs and still destroy your base.
Someone said "If you see Locust, you ignore them and go on attack mode", but you need to actually move, and if the Zerg hods you simply are losing your damn base and it's GG, like the base trade against Mutas.
Honestly I think they are really good but people need to realize how and when to use it, as well how many get (more than 6 is suicidal) and what to do to hold any possible agression in the meantime if the enemy decide to go for a base trade.
i can't wait till someone figures out how to use this unit. i loved its design and now that lurker has reclaimed the role swarm host was meant to fill originally i really want the free unit spawning aspect of this unit to be capitalized on somehow, even if it requires a balance patch to make it feasible.
i also wanted them to do more with the mothership and it hasn't happened so maybe it's a pipe dream but whatever, i'm holding out damnit!
I think it is matter of time for Zerg players to experiment with SH and see how to work them.
The reason why we don't see them being used in LOTV is bc everyone is trying diff units: lurkers, Ultras, ravagers, viper w/ PB. These units are effective right off the bat and so they are more favour.
I see SH is good on big maps where you can bring your main zerg amy attack one base, while you send the SH to another.
Though this is mostly theory-craft...gotta try it on bnet
wow there are people hyped of this unit lol A unit with 3 supply that does NOTHING during %60 of the time of its existence is useless and will remain always useless. Maybe they can be a manner unit to use in a guaranteed game
On November 24 2015 11:52 Aegwynn wrote: wow there are people hyped of this unit lol A unit with 3 supply that does NOTHING during %60 of the time of its existence is useless and will remain always useless. Maybe they can be a manner unit to use in a guaranteed game
You can't do general statements like that. As counterexample, a unit that does nothing 60% of the time, but during the other 40% can move across the map in 1 second, attack 10 times per second for 1000 damage, and has 1M hitpoints is clearly pretty good.
The question is if the 40% makes up for the 60%. You probably argue that the 40% doesn't do enough in the case of the SH, but then you need to go a bit more into detail about that.
I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes. But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote: I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes. But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
I think the OP is arguing that they should be used to keep the enemy in base (or all-in) while you transition to hive. So not first thing.
In a quick upgrade Infestor Ling style army that fasttechs to Ultralisk but makes this investment to punish a greedy opponent;
In a lategame scenario where bases are so split and spread out that you can afford to have 18 supply floating around in speed overlords purely focussed on doing HEAVY harassment
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote: I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes. But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
I think the OP is arguing that they should be used to keep the enemy in base (or all-in) while you transition to hive. So not first thing.
I thought he meant to use it to harass and grab hive asap? In that case it is difficult because how hard it is to hard some timings and push when your gas is rank into a not so good combat unit and hive upgrade
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
Locusts have huge DPS. Even ONE Swarm Host can deal nice amount of harass to single worker line.
Idea is not focusing on them and not massing them, but using like Oracle - harass a bit while doing other stuff.
Here is an example of how many workers can be killed by single SH if nothing distracts locusts and nobody defends workers.
I think the general consensus is that the current stats are too weak for swarm hosts to be used in an army, so they are pretty much just limited to harass roles. The thing is their cost is so high compared to other harass options, both for zerg and other races that is pretty much makes them not viable. I think 9/10 times players would just make lings instead since they don't use any gas, run twice as fast, and take half the time to build
On November 24 2015 19:12 GenesisX wrote: I think the general consensus is that the current stats are too weak for swarm hosts to be used in an army, so they are pretty much just limited to harass roles. The thing is their cost is so high compared to other harass options, both for zerg and other races that is pretty much makes them not viable. I think 9/10 times players would just make lings instead since they don't use any gas, run twice as fast, and take half the time to build
I don think two mutalisks will be able to kill as much workers as single Swarm Host can.
Also, Oracles are "dead supply" too in some manner.
I hope the do something in hots and in lotv swarmhost is totaly useless. To high cost and vs other units totaly useless. you can snipe buildings but if you do it you have no armee to def your base. Disruptors can to shoot all 20 sec and can kill hlaf of your armee and want do swarmhost? right they can kill 1 or 2 zelots gj.
On November 24 2015 19:19 JokerAi wrote: I hope the do something in hots and in lotv swarmhost is totaly useless. To high cost and vs other units totaly useless. you can snipe buildings but if you do it you have no armee to def your base. Disruptors can to shoot all 20 sec and can kill hlaf of your armee and want do swarmhost? right they can kill 1 or 2 zelots gj.
SH is not meant for battles, same as Oracle.
Stop count SH as core battle unit, stop count them as army at all.
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
man ... 1 SH can be deal with 1 overcharge... or some marines... or some roaches... some locusts can do massive damage against an afk opponent but thats the same with a zergling runby
They almost never do worker damage, because your opponent simply moves his workers away, locusts are slow moving. You need around 5 SH to snipe bases or key tech structures, a lower number is even less cost effective because it archives close to nothing.
I am pretty pessimistic if the current harass role can ever work, but I hope eventually someone proves me wrong..
I think the locust are a little too weak, they get destroyed so quickly and are basically useless in any head on fight. If they could provide a little more tanking power for let's say lurkers are BL then we could use them..
Might be a surprisingly good unit to secure a lead.
I was in a game where I was aggressive, but exposed to a counter attack. At home I was building Swarm Hosts and first greeted the counter attack mid map, ran Swarm hosts home, and they were ready to defend ramp as well.
I do think the timer is just slightly too long though considering how fast paced lotv is.
I'm curious to try and use these guys in squads. Since they come from Infestation Pit, it's not like a dead end tech path if they don't work out. I don't think they'll be seen every game but I could imagine a world where we see them thrown in for harassment in longer games. Could be an easy way to distract an opponent or force mistakes.
even if it's possible in some hypothetical scenario to use SH successfully to snipe a nexus or kill some workers, it's still an awkward niche tech that will never be usable as a standard strategy (standard meaning your opponent can know what you're doing and not hardcounter it with a certain timing or composition) because of the strangeness of the design. buffing it probably won't work because the free unit thing means it can quickly become OP/obnoxious
at this point i think the swarm host would be better as a queen morph (swarm queen, like in campaign, remember?) that allows queens to spawn locusts periodically to buffer for an army or as base defense. could be a hive or infestation tech upgrade
I have been trying to make swarmhost work today. Swarmhost drop on Ulrena seems to be very interesting. It's possible to make 4 SH and drop them on the gold base island, and then snipe the main easily. Later they can be used to cancel fourth and fifth base.
On November 25 2015 03:19 brickrd wrote: even if it's possible in some hypothetical scenario to use SH successfully to snipe a nexus or kill some workers, it's still an awkward niche tech that will never be usable as a standard strategy (standard meaning your opponent can know what you're doing and not hardcounter it with a certain timing or composition) because of the strangeness of the design. buffing it probably won't work because the free unit thing means it can quickly become OP/obnoxious
at this point i think the swarm host would be better as a queen morph (swarm queen, like in campaign, remember?) that allows queens to spawn locusts periodically to buffer for an army or as base defense. could be a hive or infestation tech upgrade
What tech tho? A zerg can get some SH and theres no way for the enemy to know that they did, they don't even need the upgrade anymore, if a zerg wants to get some SH he can simply make them on the fly whenever he wants.
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
Locusts have huge DPS. Even ONE Swarm Host can deal nice amount of harass to single worker line.
Idea is not focusing on them and not massing them, but using like Oracle - harass a bit while doing other stuff.
Here is an example of how many workers can be killed by single SH if nothing distracts locusts and nobody defends workers.
that video is ridiculous. if workers are pulled (what is to be expected), only 1 or 2 at most will be lost, and the SH has to get in that position in the first place. which needs heavy micro (drops etc.) and/or an undefended base. and ANY zerg unit will work better against an undefended base
On November 25 2015 04:19 civi wrote: I have been trying to make swarmhost work today. Swarmhost drop on Ulrena seems to be very interesting. It's possible to make 4 SH and drop them on the gold base island, and then snipe the main easily. Later they can be used to cancel fourth and fifth base.
On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote: I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes. But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
Its a supplementary unit for harass. Instead of harassing workers you are harassing buildings/tech. But it cant be your first unit. You start with a cheap core army, make swarmhosts, harass buildings and you transition in the meantime into a lategame composition. Its difficult to play but it works (at least for me in dia, played it 3-4 times).
On November 24 2015 06:07 Tuczniak wrote: I once saw a person make them.
I don't believe you
On November 24 2015 06:57 Topdoller wrote: Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty.
lol, where can I apply? Along with not having any fun with the campaign, I sure wouldn't mind a refund
Anyways, the Swarm Host. This unit revolves around one of my most hated RTS mechanics: timed life temporary units. They are just super hard to balance. The Swarm Host should just be a front line factory that trains units in batches of 4. Something like:
- Locust: 0.5 supply each, 2 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals. Permanent units. Probably anti-ground only. - Flying Locust: 1 supply each, 4 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals, 100 gas. Permanent units. Anti-ground and anti-air. - Locust Mauler (?): 2 supply each, 4 supply total for 2 units. 200 minerals, 200 gas. Permanent units. Heavy melee tank.
You can then play with cooldowns and the unit-hatches-from-egg timers to buff or nerf the thing.
I kinda also want the same thing happen with the Infestor's Infested Terrans. Just make them 1 or 2 supply, cost minerals and they are permanent units.
Want to add my opinion to the discussion.Lets start with I DONT THINK SH IS USELESS its defiantly got its place on the game.Its more of question of when to use them(what kind of games,what maps)and how to use them(snipe tech/kill workers)and both question will be answered only if people will actually test them.If people wont try to use them we will not know what buff they might need(in my opnion a bit smaller CD or buff to locus hp but i think CD will help more)
Swarm host can not be used on every game same as viper/infestor cant.If you are looking for fast game end or the opponent all in you, yea so defiantly dont build them but id like to give you a tip when they can be VERY good.
Alot of the long games now with zerg are about zerg sit on base build his army and do 1 good push but on these kind of game zerg must stay defensive all the game while the opponent is just taking bases and just imagine how annoying it can be for someone to not being able to do alot about it and here sh can come into play.Just sit behind the lurkers defend your base and get these 3-3 ultra and even 4 swarm host can be a huge pain for the opponent,but like i said its a unit i will build on few cases only and this is one of these
To conclude: give it a chance guys just give it! If pros wont find any use for this be sure blizzard will do something but as i see it because of how bad this unit was on the early HOTS,this change will be slow so the sooner pros will try to use them the better it will be
On November 24 2015 06:57 Topdoller wrote: Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty.
lol, where can I apply? Along with not having any fun with the campaign, I sure wouldn't mind a refund
Anyways, the Swarm Host. This unit revolves around one of my most hated RTS mechanics: timed life temporary units. They are just super hard to balance. The Swarm Host should just be a front line factory that trains units in batches of 4. Something like:
- Locust: 0.5 supply each, 2 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals. Permanent units. Probably anti-ground only. - Flying Locust: 1 supply each, 4 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals, 100 gas. Permanent units. Anti-ground and anti-air. - Locust Mauler (?): 2 supply each, 4 supply total for 2 units. 200 minerals, 200 gas. Permanent units. Heavy melee tank.
You can then play with cooldowns and the unit-hatches-from-egg timers to buff or nerf the thing.
I kinda also want the same thing happen with the Infestor's Infested Terrans. Just make them 1 or 2 supply, cost minerals and they are permanent units.
Brood Lord can stay as it is.
thats a good idea actually.
im currently working on a mod where i was planning to give the swarm host the role of a carrier for ground units - you can build locusts that will then automatically attack targets around the swarm host
dunno if it will work in practice though, havent gotten to actually designing that unit yet
I think swarm host will always have a niche role. In HotS, it was considered a gimmick and extremely map dependent, but I'm pretty sure it has like 100% win rate in korean pro games lol (of course, the sample size of games is very small).
The cost changes and the removal of the flying locusts upgrade actually helps out a lot, as it removes the amount of time you're sitting behind 100 spines and just praying you don't die. Of course, the maps atm and the overall pace doesn't particularly suit swarm hosts, but over time that may change. It's also worth noting that the economy changes in general is great for zerg, which is an indirect buff for swarm host in some ways (although probably less than other zerg units)
Now that zerg has some really great tools like the ravager and the fucking lurker, I can imagine a HotS-esque mass spines flying locusts strategy, but instead of making muta/ling swarm host like Byul and Rogue did, maybe a ravager lurker defence might work. But it might still be worth building a spire anyway which forces the protoss to make a big gamble if they want to make disruptors (i've always been a huge advocate of zerg just building every god damn building they can and forcing the protoss to make an educated guess, and i think it would be very effective with this style)
I was hoping Blizz would do something cool with the SH, like make it into a mobile Dark Swarm generator or something. Instead it was moved to a harassment role that other units do better. Right now the SH has no niche in the game.
After trying using swarm host for a few games here is what i think: 1)zvz:Swarm host are VERY good there!.Its depend alot on the game style but if the game focus on roach lurker hydra fights defently build them since on these kind of game you can stay defensive with the lurkers and you can defently get these 1000/500 for 5 swarm host.On 1 game i killed the enemy tech and expo with 5 swarm host in overlords and he could do nothing since he had no air unites so if thats the kind of game,dont rush swarm host but if you get some extra money build them and you wont be sorry for that.(On muta fights games dont try to use them they may cause 1 good attack no more its waste of money) 2)zvt:This is the worst match up for swarm host.First of all vs bio there its almost impossible to find the money to build them since bio dont let you take alot of expands and also most bio plays will have some liberators with them that can snipe the drops so i wont recommend it unless you are far ahead and even then the terran can just lift off the CC or repair it so very minimal damage.Better use some baneling drops and even lurkers drop it will do much more. Vs mech they can work but its depend alot of how the game goes on.If the terran tutrle up and give u space for macro up and tech up i would recommend using them espacilly on big maps to try and stop terran from expand so i would say swarm host can work but dont always use them. 3)zvp:Swarm host can work here but it depends mostly on the game.On games where protoss is very agressive dont build them.Also if protoss build air unites it can be very risky to use them.Blink stalkers can also make a trap for them but on games where you are ahead and protoss has to play more defensive you can make a fake attack and snipe the other base with the swarm host.You can also punish very greedy protoss or prevent them from expanding.I would say if you want to use swarm host its up to you to know when to build them.
To conclude:SH best use are on zvz where the bases far and not defended.On zvp they have their place but not every game and its up to you to decide if you want to spend the money.On zvt:They are the worst them and i would use them vs a very defensive terran or to prevent expanding so maybe on about 10% of the games. I think that swarm host could use a little buff but we may only know if people will test it out!
On November 27 2015 18:52 wrj wrote: After trying using swarm host for a few games here is what i think: 1)zvz:Swarm host are VERY good there!.Its depend alot on the game style but if the game focus on roach lurker hydra fights defently build them since on these kind of game you can stay defensive with the lurkers and you can defently get these 1000/500 for 5 swarm host.On 1 game i killed the enemy tech and expo with 5 swarm host in overlords and he could do nothing since he had no air unites so if thats the kind of game,dont rush swarm host but if you get some extra money build them and you wont be sorry for that.(On muta fights games dont try to use them they may cause 1 good attack no more its waste of money) 2)zvt:This is the worst match up for swarm host.First of all vs bio there its almost impossible to find the money to build them since bio dont let you take alot of expands and also most bio plays will have some liberators with them that can snipe the drops so i wont recommend it unless you are far ahead and even then the terran can just lift off the CC or repair it so very minimal damage.Better use some baneling drops and even lurkers drop it will do much more. Vs mech they can work but its depend alot of how the game goes on.If the terran tutrle up and give u space for macro up and tech up i would recommend using them espacilly on big maps to try and stop terran from expand so i would say swarm host can work but dont always use them. 3)zvp:Swarm host can work here but it depends mostly on the game.On games where protoss is very agressive dont build them.Also if protoss build air unites it can be very risky to use them.Blink stalkers can also make a trap for them but on games where you are ahead and protoss has to play more defensive you can make a fake attack and snipe the other base with the swarm host.You can also punish very greedy protoss or prevent them from expanding.I would say if you want to use swarm host its up to you to know when to build them.
To conclude:SH best use are on zvz where the bases far and not defended.On zvp they have their place but not every game and its up to you to decide if you want to spend the money.On zvt:They are the worst them and i would use them vs a very defensive terran or to prevent expanding so maybe on about 10% of the games. I think that swarm host could use a little buff but we may only know if people will test it out!
How would you compare them to a speedling runby in zvz?
Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
On November 27 2015 21:44 SC2Toastie wrote: Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
Thanks!
Sorry about the "Definitely". About the replay-why everything need to be proven? I would i spend my time to write things i did not test? There was a huge topic about carrier on the beta and people over and over said i need to show them replays to prove my point but guess what,2 nerfs to carrier occurred on the beta so i dont like spending time on finding specific replay to show my points. I tried using swarm host for some games and i wrote what i exprienced.Also you cant say i worte these things just for the reason of "i am zerg so i think zerg just need buffs".I wrote a fair comment on what i experienced and ended it with the bad points i see on swarm host and that they may need a buff, so to know for sure people need to test them out.Just you know i hate the rush for replays to back things up i like the more kind of share your experience to help blizzard make the right choices because specific replay really shows nothing
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
this is EXACTLY why no one goes swarm hosts.
the only viable matchup is pvp but you do not want to push the game later vs a protoss..you want to end the game before they get to their end-game death ball
The problem with the Swarm Host's design is that the Locust is a fragile, high DPS disposable unit.
What this means is that a small number of Locusts is killed before it can do any real damage. However, once the number of Locusts gets large enough that their collective HP allows them to survive long enough to do some damage, they start doing a LOT of damage.
This means that just a few Swarm Hosts is really bad. But a large, critical mass of Swarm Hosts quickly tips the balance of the game towards their user.
The fix for this is to change the Locust so that it is a tough but low DPS attacker. This will allow a small number of Locusts to do a little bit of chipping damage with each successive wave, and makes Locust groups scale more linearly. Tougher, low-DPS Locusts will consistently do a small amount of damage with each wave, instead of small groups being wiped out with no damage.
Furthermore, the Swarm Host's Locust spawn mechanic should be changed to make the Locust usage more strategic, and less of a binary 'ok the cooldown is up; use it' automatic manuever.
To do this, I think Swarm Hosts should accumulate Locust charges one at a time with a relatively short cooldown on each Locust charge, and be capable of storing a larger number of Locust charges than they can currently spawn. This allows the Zerg player to tailor how large each wave is, with larger waves necessarily causing the delay between waves to be longer.
This also has two good knock-on effects. First, Locusts are very useful as a damage sponge standing in front of other units, and this allows a Zerg to send a Locust wave whenever they want, although if they do it too soon there won't be very many Locusts. And it also allows for skilled Swarm Host usage by good timing of the waves based on the amount of enemies the zerg is going to attack. If the enemy is weak, repeated small waves will aggressively do damage. If the enemy is strong, a larger wave is called for.
To me, Summoning units periodically, doesnt feel like the swarm - it feels like a Warlock.
Locusts should have cost something and buffed accordingly. Free units in a game of cost efficiency is a huge joke, and its the reason i hate the broodlord.
The carrier is cost efficient, its like paying 25 for a flying marine - thats fine though - as 8 carriers will eat through a lot of recources if you constantly trade in your interceptors.
In terms of harassment the Swarm Host is never, ever going to be as interesting as the humble Mutalisk with its basic attack.
The Swarm Host was intended to be a siege weapon, gradually besieging and dealing damage to a fortified enemy position over time. To do this, the Locust should be a tough, low-DPS unit, and not a squishy, ultra-high-DPS attacker. This will enable it to consistently deal a small amount of damage with each wave.
On November 29 2015 11:36 ledarsi wrote: In terms of harassment the Swarm Host is never, ever going to be as interesting as the humble Mutalisk with its basic attack.
The Swarm Host was intended to be a siege weapon, gradually besieging and dealing damage to a fortified enemy position over time. To do this, the Locust should be a tough, low-DPS unit, and not a squishy, ultra-high-DPS attacker. This will enable it to consistently deal a small amount of damage with each wave.
Yeah, it's gone a long way from the original idea back in hots beta, which was to give zerg a siege weapon to force sieged up terran positions to move.
Turns out it did the opposite: forced the terran to bunker up and stay stationary even more, which obviously didn't make for good games.
Solution? Make sure it did its original purpose, for example through your suggestion? Nope, make it an economy harass unit!!! >_>
On November 27 2015 21:44 SC2Toastie wrote: Wrj, as a little sidenote, I've seen you spell Definitely in multiple different ways. Defiantly, defently, etcetera. The word you're looking for is Definitely.
Your comments are cool though, do you have some replays to back them up and show us how you do it?
Thanks!
Sorry about the "Definitely". About the replay-why everything need to be proven? I would i spend my time to write things i did not test? There was a huge topic about carrier on the beta and people over and over said i need to show them replays to prove my point but guess what,2 nerfs to carrier occurred on the beta so i dont like spending time on finding specific replay to show my points. I tried using swarm host for some games and i wrote what i exprienced.Also you cant say i worte these things just for the reason of "i am zerg so i think zerg just need buffs".I wrote a fair comment on what i experienced and ended it with the bad points i see on swarm host and that they may need a buff, so to know for sure people need to test them out.Just you know i hate the rush for replays to back things up i like the more kind of share your experience to help blizzard make the right choices because specific replay really shows nothing
I want to see the replays to examine for myself if I deem them effective and what role they played in your victory. Apparantly, you are having the success I'm not experiencing when the game is even and hard-fought. Because of that, I want to look whether you do, or you just use them in a situation you are already ahead in and they have a positive result in that situation alone, which positively affects your general opinion in a wrong way..
On November 29 2015 22:44 sabas123 wrote: Didn't people also say that infestors where unusable and were too weak to be viable before the bl infestor era?
The difference was that Infestors were able to constantly root enemy units and spam infested terrans (stacked energy), while SH can't do that.
I didn’t see one single use of swarm hosts since the release of LotV. What is going on? Is there no use for them at all? At least they are more mobile than before which makes them comparable to disruptors imo, which are a 'one-shot and wait' unit as well. Why does it work for disruptors but not for swarm hosts?
On December 14 2015 23:38 infii wrote: I didn’t see one single use of swarm hosts since the release of LotV. What is going on? Is there no use for them at all? At least they are more mobile than before which makes them comparable to disruptors imo, which are a 'one-shot and wait' unit as well. Why does it work for disruptors but not for swarm hosts?
They do not work like disruptors because: - 71 seconds for SH to spawn 2 new locust, locusts can be killed, small amount of locusts are not something that will make the opponent fall back - 30 seconds cool down for disruptors to spawn nova ball, nova ball can't be killed, nova ball can kill half your army in 3 seconds
Yes they might be used for harass, but then again infestors can do the same while actually helping your army and/or better for harass because they can move while burrowed.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mk3nbTB.jpg)
