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Russian Federation4295 Posts
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I was a huge fan of old Swarm Hosts, not because they created boring game stalemates, but because of their swarmy design. Sadly that unit turned Heart of the Swarm ending into something boring and not entertaining to watch.
At the end of Heart of the Swarm this unit was redesigned into harassing tool that allows to harass bases from big distance. As I saw, many players instantly claimed them to be useless: flying locusts are very slow, spawn time is very long, and Locust health is lower now. On other side, Swarm Hosts got higher speed and ability to spawn Locusts even unburrowed and while moving.
I'd like to discuss this unit in this thread and understand, are new Swarm Hosts that useless as everyone thinks? I'm not a pro-player, but I'd like to focus on some moments that may make Swarm Hosts viable in their new role.
Current Swarm Host stats
- Cost - 200 minerals / 100 gas / 3 supply / 29 seconds (real-time)
- Defence - 160 health / 1 armor (+1 per upgrade)
- Attributes - Armored, Biological
- Speed - 4.13, on creep - 5.37
(off-creep: same speed as Stalker and Warp Prizm,
slower than Cyclone, faster than Medivac (without afterburner).
- Locust
- Defence: 50 health
- Attributes: Light - Biological
- Speed: 2.62 in air and off-creep (3.66 on creep)
- Damage: 12 damage, 0.43 attack speed (~ 28dps from single Locust, 56 dps from two Locusts)
Everyone may agree and knows that Mutalisks are more viable:
• they are faster
• can regenerate health quickly
• they feel cheap - just 100 minerals and 100 vespene
• they are not dead-supply of your army
• can constantly deal damage
• can deny drops
• can backdoor enemy key units to snipe them, in rare cases
First of all, Mutalisks require Spire that requires 71 seconds to build. Also Spire does not allows to transition to Hive tech.
Infestation Pit requires 36 seconds to build and allows to morph Lair to Hive as well as building Infestors. And getting Hive quickly allows to transition to 3rd upgrade level, Viper and Ultralisk production.
In my opinion, you can harass enemy with small group of Swarm Hosts, like 4-6 or more while quickly rushing into Hive tech. Going Mutalisks delays your Hive tech by a good amount of minerals, vespene and also time.
Keep in mind, that four Swarm Hosts can snipe Nexus / Command center / Hatchery in one volley, if no one disrupts Locusts (i.e. someone protecting the base). Also, Locusts can extremely quickly snipe workers, just Hold-mode them when they landed to to enemy workers and they won't react to Siege tank or overcharged Pylon that is trying to agro Locusts.
The main idea is to utilize SH requirements that allow you to transition to Hive very quickly, by skipping Spire tech and spending resources on other zerg units, upgrades and tech paths.
What do you think? I'd like to remember you how everyone claimed SH to be useless unit early in Heart of the Swarm, and later those swarmy guys gave zergs many wins against Terran mech, against Protoss deathballs and became ultimate unit in ZvZ also.
Who knows, maybe now we should give a chance to Swarm Hosts and utilize them in other area as well as use all their good sides such as safe rush, fast Hive transition, huge Locust DPS and good mobility of Swarm Hosts themselfs.
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I once saw a person make them.
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Sure they're great for harass but you need something that can fight if you're relying on it to hold you over until Hive tech.
Swarm Hosts are good for chipping way at someone cost efficiently, but if the other player just boxes all their units and A-moves you when you start making Swarm Hosts, you're pretty dead!
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If you use swarm hosts the way you described, people will see locusts when you decide to harass, ignore it, then attack your base since you won't be able to spawn locusts for a while and will definitely have a smaller army.
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Joke unit, they might get used once in a while for funnies when the game is already won. 200 minerals and 100 gas for a major selling point unit of HotS that was nerfed into oblivion along with the infestor.
No wonder Zerg had to stick with Muta + Bling for 5 years, its T2 options have been abysmal until recently.
Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty.
If you build these the game is either already won or already lost, its that bad. it needs another rework to make it a viable unit for its cost
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This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
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The problem with the Swarm Host is that it isn't a swarmy unit at all. It is a high value unit that is few in number, which is expensive and vulnerable to being picked off.
A Zerg Swarm does not look like Swarm Hosts or Broodlords endlessly spawning trash. A zerg swarm is a ridiculous number of Zerglings and Hydralisks that is a legitimately strong army that costs resources, and with no snipable high value targets, just a whole lot of zerg muscle.
Browder and co. clearly do not understand the way zerg is supposed to work, and think a small number of high supply cost units is "zergy" which is retarded.
The Swarm Host should not have passed the brainstorm stage. Instead basic zerg units should cost less supply, so they can be built in very large numbers.
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On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote:
This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
Yes, exactly that, and I saw some people using them in Beta, like Lowko and man... I couldn't believe how good they were at killing Nexus and Command Centers... they don't need to burrow to drop the Locust anyway, and they can be set from far away, but mainly behind cliffs and still destroy your base.
Someone said "If you see Locust, you ignore them and go on attack mode", but you need to actually move, and if the Zerg hods you simply are losing your damn base and it's GG, like the base trade against Mutas.
Honestly I think they are really good but people need to realize how and when to use it, as well how many get (more than 6 is suicidal) and what to do to hold any possible agression in the meantime if the enemy decide to go for a base trade.
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They may work well now that Lurkers exist.. use them to harass and defend supply efficiently with Lurkers.
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i can't wait till someone figures out how to use this unit. i loved its design and now that lurker has reclaimed the role swarm host was meant to fill originally i really want the free unit spawning aspect of this unit to be capitalized on somehow, even if it requires a balance patch to make it feasible.
i also wanted them to do more with the mothership and it hasn't happened so maybe it's a pipe dream but whatever, i'm holding out damnit!
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Swarm Host will rise again, it is great in LOTV.
EDIT : Oh yeah, forgot to say nice post. ^^
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I think it is matter of time for Zerg players to experiment with SH and see how to work them.
The reason why we don't see them being used in LOTV is bc everyone is trying diff units: lurkers, Ultras, ravagers, viper w/ PB. These units are effective right off the bat and so they are more favour.
I see SH is good on big maps where you can bring your main zerg amy attack one base, while you send the SH to another.
Though this is mostly theory-craft...gotta try it on bnet 
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I have no doubt we will see swarm host vs protoss. They have no counter to snipe nexus', and are better vs disruptors then were vs colossi.
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wow there are people hyped of this unit lol
A unit with 3 supply that does NOTHING during %60 of the time of its existence is useless and will remain always useless. Maybe they can be a manner unit to use in a guaranteed game
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On November 24 2015 11:52 Aegwynn wrote:
wow there are people hyped of this unit lol
A unit with 3 supply that does NOTHING during %60 of the time of its existence is useless and will remain always useless. Maybe they can be a manner unit to use in a guaranteed game
You can't do general statements like that. As counterexample, a unit that does nothing 60% of the time, but during the other 40% can move across the map in 1 second, attack 10 times per second for 1000 damage, and has 1M hitpoints is clearly pretty good.
The question is if the 40% makes up for the 60%. You probably argue that the 40% doesn't do enough in the case of the SH, but then you need to go a bit more into detail about that.
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I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes.
But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
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On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote:
I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes.
But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
I think the OP is arguing that they should be used to keep the enemy in base (or all-in) while you transition to hive. So not first thing.
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I could see Swarm Hosts work in two variations;
In a quick upgrade Infestor Ling style army that fasttechs to Ultralisk but makes this investment to punish a greedy opponent;
In a lategame scenario where bases are so split and spread out that you can afford to have 18 supply floating around in speed overlords purely focussed on doing HEAVY harassment
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On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote:
This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential.
The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible.
In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure.
In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly
In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however :
-You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors.
-You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
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On November 24 2015 16:05 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote:
I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes.
But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall I think the OP is arguing that they should be used to keep the enemy in base (or all-in) while you transition to hive. So not first thing.
I thought he meant to use it to harass and grab hive asap?
In that case it is difficult because how hard it is to hard some timings and push when your gas is rank into a not so good combat unit and hive upgrade
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EPT
