On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
Locusts have huge DPS. Even ONE Swarm Host can deal nice amount of harass to single worker line.
Idea is not focusing on them and not massing them, but using like Oracle - harass a bit while doing other stuff.
Here is an example of how many workers can be killed by single SH if nothing distracts locusts and nobody defends workers.
I think the general consensus is that the current stats are too weak for swarm hosts to be used in an army, so they are pretty much just limited to harass roles. The thing is their cost is so high compared to other harass options, both for zerg and other races that is pretty much makes them not viable. I think 9/10 times players would just make lings instead since they don't use any gas, run twice as fast, and take half the time to build
On November 24 2015 19:12 GenesisX wrote: I think the general consensus is that the current stats are too weak for swarm hosts to be used in an army, so they are pretty much just limited to harass roles. The thing is their cost is so high compared to other harass options, both for zerg and other races that is pretty much makes them not viable. I think 9/10 times players would just make lings instead since they don't use any gas, run twice as fast, and take half the time to build
I don think two mutalisks will be able to kill as much workers as single Swarm Host can.
Also, Oracles are "dead supply" too in some manner.
I hope the do something in hots and in lotv swarmhost is totaly useless. To high cost and vs other units totaly useless. you can snipe buildings but if you do it you have no armee to def your base. Disruptors can to shoot all 20 sec and can kill hlaf of your armee and want do swarmhost? right they can kill 1 or 2 zelots gj.
On November 24 2015 19:19 JokerAi wrote: I hope the do something in hots and in lotv swarmhost is totaly useless. To high cost and vs other units totaly useless. you can snipe buildings but if you do it you have no armee to def your base. Disruptors can to shoot all 20 sec and can kill hlaf of your armee and want do swarmhost? right they can kill 1 or 2 zelots gj.
SH is not meant for battles, same as Oracle.
Stop count SH as core battle unit, stop count them as army at all.
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
man ... 1 SH can be deal with 1 overcharge... or some marines... or some roaches... some locusts can do massive damage against an afk opponent but thats the same with a zergling runby
They almost never do worker damage, because your opponent simply moves his workers away, locusts are slow moving. You need around 5 SH to snipe bases or key tech structures, a lower number is even less cost effective because it archives close to nothing.
I am pretty pessimistic if the current harass role can ever work, but I hope eventually someone proves me wrong..
I think the locust are a little too weak, they get destroyed so quickly and are basically useless in any head on fight. If they could provide a little more tanking power for let's say lurkers are BL then we could use them..
Might be a surprisingly good unit to secure a lead.
I was in a game where I was aggressive, but exposed to a counter attack. At home I was building Swarm Hosts and first greeted the counter attack mid map, ran Swarm hosts home, and they were ready to defend ramp as well.
I do think the timer is just slightly too long though considering how fast paced lotv is.
I'm curious to try and use these guys in squads. Since they come from Infestation Pit, it's not like a dead end tech path if they don't work out. I don't think they'll be seen every game but I could imagine a world where we see them thrown in for harassment in longer games. Could be an easy way to distract an opponent or force mistakes.
even if it's possible in some hypothetical scenario to use SH successfully to snipe a nexus or kill some workers, it's still an awkward niche tech that will never be usable as a standard strategy (standard meaning your opponent can know what you're doing and not hardcounter it with a certain timing or composition) because of the strangeness of the design. buffing it probably won't work because the free unit thing means it can quickly become OP/obnoxious
at this point i think the swarm host would be better as a queen morph (swarm queen, like in campaign, remember?) that allows queens to spawn locusts periodically to buffer for an army or as base defense. could be a hive or infestation tech upgrade
I have been trying to make swarmhost work today. Swarmhost drop on Ulrena seems to be very interesting. It's possible to make 4 SH and drop them on the gold base island, and then snipe the main easily. Later they can be used to cancel fourth and fifth base.
On November 25 2015 03:19 brickrd wrote: even if it's possible in some hypothetical scenario to use SH successfully to snipe a nexus or kill some workers, it's still an awkward niche tech that will never be usable as a standard strategy (standard meaning your opponent can know what you're doing and not hardcounter it with a certain timing or composition) because of the strangeness of the design. buffing it probably won't work because the free unit thing means it can quickly become OP/obnoxious
at this point i think the swarm host would be better as a queen morph (swarm queen, like in campaign, remember?) that allows queens to spawn locusts periodically to buffer for an army or as base defense. could be a hive or infestation tech upgrade
What tech tho? A zerg can get some SH and theres no way for the enemy to know that they did, they don't even need the upgrade anymore, if a zerg wants to get some SH he can simply make them on the fly whenever he wants.
On November 24 2015 07:05 dr3am_b3ing wrote: This unit is SO hype I can't believe it isn't being talked about as much. Mineral/ Vespene cost reverted AND flying locusts don't need to be researched. New swarm hosts have MASSIVE potential compared to old swarm hosts
They have almost no potential. The game is too fast, zerg can't have 1000/500 ressources in dead supply, its simply not possible. In ZvT it is 100% sure you can't use SH in mid game because of bioball pressure. In ZvZ you can't use SH either because you will drop in roach numbers and die immediatly In ZvP it might be possible to get some SH if you are sure the protoss don't all in yet, however : -You can't rely on lurker to defend while you harass with SH because protoss players are rushing disruptors. -You don't want to slow the game by building SH because zerg fear the late game (carrier...)
Actually you can build just 1-2 SH and do harass-drop of 2-4 locusts that will kill good amount of workers. While that, you can do other stuff - expanding, doing banelings, upgrading infestors and/or morphing lair to hive.
Locusts have huge DPS. Even ONE Swarm Host can deal nice amount of harass to single worker line.
Idea is not focusing on them and not massing them, but using like Oracle - harass a bit while doing other stuff.
Here is an example of how many workers can be killed by single SH if nothing distracts locusts and nobody defends workers.
that video is ridiculous. if workers are pulled (what is to be expected), only 1 or 2 at most will be lost, and the SH has to get in that position in the first place. which needs heavy micro (drops etc.) and/or an undefended base. and ANY zerg unit will work better against an undefended base
On November 25 2015 04:19 civi wrote: I have been trying to make swarmhost work today. Swarmhost drop on Ulrena seems to be very interesting. It's possible to make 4 SH and drop them on the gold base island, and then snipe the main easily. Later they can be used to cancel fourth and fifth base.
On November 24 2015 14:10 ETisME wrote: I find it difficult to use, you get them out as first lair unit and it is incredibly hard to deal with some pushes. But I do agree it is a very powerful unit overall
Its a supplementary unit for harass. Instead of harassing workers you are harassing buildings/tech. But it cant be your first unit. You start with a cheap core army, make swarmhosts, harass buildings and you transition in the meantime into a lategame composition. Its difficult to play but it works (at least for me in dia, played it 3-4 times).
On November 24 2015 06:07 Tuczniak wrote: I once saw a person make them.
I don't believe you
On November 24 2015 06:57 Topdoller wrote: Anyone whom bought HoTS to play Zerg should be entitled to a refund in all honesty.
lol, where can I apply? Along with not having any fun with the campaign, I sure wouldn't mind a refund
Anyways, the Swarm Host. This unit revolves around one of my most hated RTS mechanics: timed life temporary units. They are just super hard to balance. The Swarm Host should just be a front line factory that trains units in batches of 4. Something like:
- Locust: 0.5 supply each, 2 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals. Permanent units. Probably anti-ground only. - Flying Locust: 1 supply each, 4 supply total for 4 units. 100 minerals, 100 gas. Permanent units. Anti-ground and anti-air. - Locust Mauler (?): 2 supply each, 4 supply total for 2 units. 200 minerals, 200 gas. Permanent units. Heavy melee tank.
You can then play with cooldowns and the unit-hatches-from-egg timers to buff or nerf the thing.
I kinda also want the same thing happen with the Infestor's Infested Terrans. Just make them 1 or 2 supply, cost minerals and they are permanent units.
Want to add my opinion to the discussion.Lets start with I DONT THINK SH IS USELESS its defiantly got its place on the game.Its more of question of when to use them(what kind of games,what maps)and how to use them(snipe tech/kill workers)and both question will be answered only if people will actually test them.If people wont try to use them we will not know what buff they might need(in my opnion a bit smaller CD or buff to locus hp but i think CD will help more)
Swarm host can not be used on every game same as viper/infestor cant.If you are looking for fast game end or the opponent all in you, yea so defiantly dont build them but id like to give you a tip when they can be VERY good.
Alot of the long games now with zerg are about zerg sit on base build his army and do 1 good push but on these kind of game zerg must stay defensive all the game while the opponent is just taking bases and just imagine how annoying it can be for someone to not being able to do alot about it and here sh can come into play.Just sit behind the lurkers defend your base and get these 3-3 ultra and even 4 swarm host can be a huge pain for the opponent,but like i said its a unit i will build on few cases only and this is one of these
To conclude: give it a chance guys just give it! If pros wont find any use for this be sure blizzard will do something but as i see it because of how bad this unit was on the early HOTS,this change will be slow so the sooner pros will try to use them the better it will be
EPT
