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On July 13 2016 17:37 Ganseng wrote:
this patch seems to contain at least 2 bugs
1) raynor's 10% hp buff doesn't work properly, at least for mechanical units
e.g. fully upgraded battlecruisers only have 585 hp insted of 715
marines get only 4 hp per upgrade lvl
2) karax's instant warp-in of pylons and defensive structures doesn't work
Raynor's unupgraded BCs have 450 health, so they're getting 45 per upgrade, that's working as intended. The buff marines get only account for their base HP without combat shields, so that's 4.5 per level. So they're both working as intended.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
oh thanks for the clarification
i wouldn't have thought BCs have only 450 hp, as if they were not bad enough
and what about karax, could you check?
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RIP Raynor.
Went from by far the strongest to weakest overnight.
Blizzard turning true heros to zeros.
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Do you lose if you have no buildings or are all lose triggers based on objectives?
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On July 15 2016 22:19 Tuczniak wrote:
Do you lose if you have no buildings or are all lose triggers based on objectives?
If both players lose all buildings yes, you both lose. Not until then though.
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On July 15 2016 23:01 imJealous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 22:19 Tuczniak wrote:
Do you lose if you have no buildings or are all lose triggers based on objectives? If both players lose all buildings yes, you both lose. Not until then though.
Wrong. If one player loses all his/her buildings (except special buildings), you both lose.
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What about swann's drill and karax's building? They don't get destroyed exactly.
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PSA: If you need to go AFK, either pause or just leave. If you aren't coming back, DON'T stay in the game, cause then the other player doesn't get your units and can't win some maps.
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So I proposed this change on the Bnet forums but it (predictably) got derailed almost immediately. Hopefully I can get some better feedback here.
While talking with a friend I had an epiphany:
Swap Zagara's Corruptors with Kerrigan's Mutalisks.
This solves a ton of problems instantly.
Corruptors are no longer useless because of Scourge, they're now downright essential against air waves and can transform into Brood Lords once their job is done.
Mutalisks would be much stronger with scourge support and would add some variety to Zagara's roster. Plus you'd have the ability to go ling/bane/muta.
The switch is also a bit more lore/theme friendly. Corruptors are one of the beefiest zerg units, but they're currently stuck with Zagara, who focuses on speed and fragile swarms. Mutalisks are all about hit and run tactics, but they're with Kerrigan, whose focus is brute force and direct assaults.
The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Corruptors wouldn't need to be changed much as they're the direct counter to most of what troubles Kerrigan (Liberators, Oracles, Scouts) and would be able to benefit from the gas cost reduction mastery quite nicely. One nice upgrade for them would be +2 armor, if they needed one at all.
Mutalisks would be a bit harder to fit into Zagara's army, with their relatively expensive gas price, but you could add something like this to her level up perks:
Incisive Incubation - Increases Mutalisk mineral, gas, and population cost by 50%, but two Mutalisks spawn out of each egg.
You'd then have 75/75 Mutalisks (minus whatever Zagara's discount would be) only taking up 1.5 supply, which would fit the swarm commander perfectly.
Alternatively you could change Incubate Baneling to Incubate Explosives and have Mutalisks spawn two scourge upon death in addition to Aberrations spawning Banelings, that'd work well too.
Any thoughts?
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I've read such a suggestion before (idk from who it was, maybe yours?) and I couldn't agree more. The unit switch would be perfect, as well as the upgrade(s) with some testing/tuning. It escapes me why they don't see it, it would be simple and effective improvement from gameplay and lore perspective as you put it so well.
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On July 20 2016 16:00 Xsyq wrote:
So I proposed this change on the Bnet forums but it (predictably) got derailed almost immediately. Hopefully I can get some better feedback here.
While talking with a friend I had an epiphany:
Swap Zagara's Corruptors with Kerrigan's Mutalisks.
This solves a ton of problems instantly.
Corruptors are no longer useless because of Scourge, they're now downright essential against air waves and can transform into Brood Lords once their job is done.
Mutalisks would be much stronger with scourge support and would add some variety to Zagara's roster. Plus you'd have the ability to go ling/bane/muta.
The switch is also a bit more lore/theme friendly. Corruptors are one of the beefiest zerg units, but they're currently stuck with Zagara, who focuses on speed and fragile swarms. Mutalisks are all about hit and run tactics, but they're with Kerrigan, whose focus is brute force and direct assaults.
The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Corruptors wouldn't need to be changed much as they're the direct counter to most of what troubles Kerrigan (Liberators, Oracles, Scouts) and would be able to benefit from the gas cost reduction mastery quite nicely. One nice upgrade for them would be +2 armor, if they needed one at all.
Mutalisks would be a bit harder to fit into Zagara's army, with their relatively expensive gas price, but you could add something like this to her level up perks:
Incisive Incubation - Increases Mutalisk mineral, gas, and population cost by 50%, but two Mutalisks spawn out of each egg.
You'd then have 75/75 Mutalisks (minus whatever Zagara's discount would be) only taking up 1.5 supply, which would fit the swarm commander perfectly.
Alternatively you could change Incubate Baneling to Incubate Explosives and have Mutalisks spawn two scourge upon death in addition to Aberrations spawning Banelings, that'd work well too.
Any thoughts?
Right off the bat, I'm not worried about either commander being weaker from this, because I never make corruptors with Zagara, and I never get mutas with Kerrigan (I tried a few times with a Swann ally, but even then it doesn't seem worth the gas at all... the only time it ever worked for me was when my ally left and I had 4 base gas).
I am strongly in favour of giving Kerrigan corruptors. However, I'm not so much in favor of giving Zagara mutas. I am certainly for increasing Zagara's variety, but I don't know if mutas are the way to go with that.
I find Zagara to be one of the easiest commanders out there. However, one of the only things that justify her being an "advanced commander" to me (not that that designation carries much weight... the two hardest commanders to play are labelled "basic") is the fact that none of her units, save the hero herself and her temporary hydras, can attack both ground and air. So a player has to worry about striking the right balance between the two. Also, as cool as it is to be able to go MLB with a commander, I think it's pointless just because the things that make the "M" part of that comp crucial in ladder just don't apply at all here (picking off reinforcements, harassing the mineral lines, shutting down drops, etc). Plus its damage style, the AoE, is redundant with what Zagara already has, especially the anti-armor AoE of banes.
By the way, even though I never go corruptors with Zagara, they do have a use, I just haven't taken advantage of them. When you're sniping objectives with scourge, you should bring a corruptor with the scourge flock to corrupt the target before you hit it.
While I love the idea of switching Kerrigan's mutas with corruptors, and have been advocating for it in the past, here's a modification I'd give to your suggestion that I would personally prefer. Let both Kerrigan and Zagara have corruptors. However, give them both different researches:
-Zagara's corruptors can research AoE corruption. That way, you have a strong motivation to have corruptors in your army to target the opponent army with corruption before your banes/scourge hit them. It gives Zagara a powerful micro option, since she doesn't require that much micro now.
-Kerrigan's corruptors lose the corruption ability, but they get the passive Acid Spores (a la devourers from BW), with the added effect that when an enemy with acid spores dies, those spore stacks add on to a nearby air enemy. It's not as strong as the other co-op AA with the massive AoE damage (like scourge, vikings, and devourers) but at least they won't get completely outclassed by those other options, which is what would happen if they don't change at all, as per your suggestion.
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On July 20 2016 16:00 Xsyq wrote:
So I proposed this change on the Bnet forums but it (predictably) got derailed almost immediately. Hopefully I can get some better feedback here.
While talking with a friend I had an epiphany:
Swap Zagara's Corruptors with Kerrigan's Mutalisks.
This solves a ton of problems instantly.
Corruptors are no longer useless because of Scourge, they're now downright essential against air waves and can transform into Brood Lords once their job is done.
Mutalisks would be much stronger with scourge support and would add some variety to Zagara's roster. Plus you'd have the ability to go ling/bane/muta.
The switch is also a bit more lore/theme friendly. Corruptors are one of the beefiest zerg units, but they're currently stuck with Zagara, who focuses on speed and fragile swarms. Mutalisks are all about hit and run tactics, but they're with Kerrigan, whose focus is brute force and direct assaults.
The more I think about this the more it makes sense. Corruptors wouldn't need to be changed much as they're the direct counter to most of what troubles Kerrigan (Liberators, Oracles, Scouts) and would be able to benefit from the gas cost reduction mastery quite nicely. One nice upgrade for them would be +2 armor, if they needed one at all.
Mutalisks would be a bit harder to fit into Zagara's army, with their relatively expensive gas price, but you could add something like this to her level up perks:
Incisive Incubation - Increases Mutalisk mineral, gas, and population cost by 50%, but two Mutalisks spawn out of each egg.
You'd then have 75/75 Mutalisks (minus whatever Zagara's discount would be) only taking up 1.5 supply, which would fit the swarm commander perfectly.
Alternatively you could change Incubate Baneling to Incubate Explosives and have Mutalisks spawn two scourge upon death in addition to Aberrations spawning Banelings, that'd work well too.
Any thoughts?
Great idea - I strongly agree with Kerrigan getting corruptors and letting broods morph from them.
I haven't given as much thought to the resulting impact on Zagara as a result of adding Mutalisks so I can't comment on that. My gut reaction is that mutalisks don't really fit Zagara's playstyle which revolves around swarming and remaxing.
I suspect part of the reason you got negative feedback on your post on bnet website might be because of the proposal to remove mutalisks from Kerrigan and/or remove corruptors from Zagara. (Not sure - just my guess.) Given certain commanders already do share units (e.g., siege tanks, immortals), I would be alright with just making additions to both Kerrigan's and Zagara's arsenals.
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On July 21 2016 04:57 The Bottle wrote:
I find Zagara to be one of the easiest commanders out there. However, one of the only things that justify her being an "advanced commander" to me (not that that designation carries much weight... the two hardest commanders to play are labelled "basic") is the fact that none of her units, save the hero herself and her temporary hydras, can attack both ground and air. So a player has to worry about striking the right balance between the two. Also, as cool as it is to be able to go MLB with a commander, I think it's pointless just because the things that make the "M" part of that comp crucial in ladder just don't apply at all here (picking off reinforcements, harassing the mineral lines, shutting down drops, etc). Plus its damage style, the AoE, is redundant with what Zagara already has, especially the anti-armor AoE of banes.
I wouldn't underestimate the AA capabilities of Zagara and her hydras. I usually skip the scourge nest unless I'm up against air waves and have no problems. So adding another unit that hits air and ground doesn't seem like that big of a change in playstyle.
I agree that mutas' role in co-op is completely different than what it is in ladder, but that doesn't mean it's useless. Mutalisks in this case would be more of a substitute for scourge, lings, and aberrations than banelings, in that they are extremely good at dealing with armored targets but fairly fragile in a straight-up fight. So engaging with banelings first to clear out all the AA then sweeping in with mutalisks and lings to mop up the rest would be the usual MLB playstyle IMO.
By the way, even though I never go corruptors with Zagara, they do have a use, I just haven't taken advantage of them. When you're sniping objectives with scourge, you should bring a corruptor with the scourge flock to corrupt the target before you hit it.
True, but that's almost never used and wouldn't be missed much.
While I love the idea of switching Kerrigan's mutas with corruptors, and have been advocating for it in the past, here's a modification I'd give to your suggestion that I would personally prefer. Let both Kerrigan and Zagara have corruptors. However, give them both different researches:
-Zagara's corruptors can research AoE corruption. That way, you have a strong motivation to have corruptors in your army to target the opponent army with corruption before your banes/scourge hit them. It gives Zagara a powerful micro option, since she doesn't require that much micro now.
-Kerrigan's corruptors lose the corruption ability, but they get the passive Acid Spores (a la devourers from BW), with the added effect that when an enemy with acid spores dies, those spore stacks add on to a nearby air enemy. It's not as strong as the other co-op AA with the massive AoE damage (like scourge, vikings, and devourers) but at least they won't get completely outclassed by those other options, which is what would happen if they don't change at all, as per your suggestion.
I'd be more in favor of this if Abathur didn't already have Devourers with AOE Corrosive Acid, which reduces attack speed and armor and can target air or ground. That's a pretty huge role overlap. I feel like you might as well just give both of the commanders Devourers at that point.
I also disagree that Corruptors would be overshadowed that heavily by other AA. Corruptors (especially at high mastery 150/70 cost) have a lot of life and armor for their price, and the things you'd normally build Corruptors to fight (Liberators, Pheonix, Scouts, Capital Ships) do very well against Hydras but very poorly against armor, which is why I suggested the +2 armor upgrade. They wouldn't have much DPS, but they would have a lot of survivability, especially with mineral dump Queen support.
On July 21 2016 07:30 dchaudh wrote:
Great idea - I strongly agree with Kerrigan getting corruptors and letting broods morph from them.
I haven't given as much thought to the resulting impact on Zagara as a result of adding Mutalisks so I can't comment on that. My gut reaction is that mutalisks don't really fit Zagara's playstyle which revolves around swarming and remaxing.
Well that's why I suggested the double mutalisk upgrade. It'd be about the same gas cost as Aberrations (150/68 vs 75/75) and those are fairly easy to mass. And, unlike Kerrigan, you actually have the larva for ling support as Zagara.
I suspect part of the reason you got negative feedback on your post on bnet website might be because of the proposal to remove mutalisks from Kerrigan and/or remove corruptors from Zagara. (Not sure - just my guess.) Given certain commanders already do share units (e.g., siege tanks, immortals), I would be alright with just making additions to both Kerrigan's and Zagara's arsenals.
I didn't really get negative reactions. It was the fact that people started talking about Hellbat upgrades that made me sigh and write off the thread.
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I'm in favor of bring back double mules.
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I'm reading over and over how Queens are Kerrigan's mineral dump, but I fail to see how that's good, even after playing this way several times.. They are slow to make, slow to kill stuff and ridicuously slow out of creep, worst AA from my experience as well..
Good for popping out of Omegas, sometimes to heal Kerrigan and Ultra? Throwing down some Creep Tumors here and there for more aggressive spread?
I find Zerglings still better, they just delete stunned bases or waves.. Please enlighten me ._.
About the thread you made on bnet - I see most threads there end up that way lol. "You have a proposal? Better nerf Irelia." thread.
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Zerglings work well as a mineral dump when you are already upgrading melee attack and ground carapace and can spare the 600+ gas for their other upgrades. When going air none of those things are true so you'll usually want to build queens for the heals and creep. Queens don't need upgrades to be that effective, but unupgraded zerglings are only useful as cannon fodder.
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Blizzard will probably want to keep mutalisks on Kerrigan, because she has BW units. But we will see.
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Scourge are BW units and Broodlords aren't. Already broke that rule. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You don't have to move Queens off creep, just use the Omega worms.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
yeah, good idea with muta/corruptor swap
broodlords still need a buff, at least increase the range from 9.5 to 11
and maybe an upgrade to increase broodling duration and life
other necessary commander swaps:
carrier/tempest (karax & artanis)
wraith/viking (swann & raynor)
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EPT
