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United States8476 Posts
On July 07 2016 01:14 The Bottle wrote:
Monk, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree with the effectiveness of Swann in mutators.
WI found him to be the (close) second best in the train mission to Kerrigan, the absolute best in the void shard mission (which I think everyone agrees is the hardest one so far), the second best in the second lock & load mission (I know you disagree), and very manageable in most of the other mutators. (He struggles in the laser drill one, and whiteout.) I still think his herc-tanks are the best anti-ground in the game, which you didn't mention in your description of him. Dropping an army of them in hostile territory can make everything disappear. And with herc micro and points in the immortality protocol mastery, they're on the same level of resilience as Vorazun's DTs IMO, with some disadvantages (it costs to revive them, their corpse can be killed, not cloaked) and some advantages (easier to get cover, revives in a second with full health and doesn't have to come back from base, has really high range).
Oblivion Express: Had him 4th because I felt Vorazun/Kerrigan/Raynor could more easily solo it. Willing to change my opinion if they ever re-release this one.
First Strike: We agree here.
Time Lock: I only have Swann 1 rank below where you have him here.
Bad Weather: We agree that he's the best here.
White Out: We agree here.
War is Hell: We probably disagree here: I think he's completely useless. The Lava Bursts affects tanks more than any other unit.
Temple of Pain: I'm very confident he's 4th here.
Spear of Doom: We disagree here too.
It may be that I'm just not using the other commanders to their potential. Though I like to think that I'm always using the strong underrated things. (I always have multiple nyduses with Kerrigan in the missions where you need mobility/army cover, for example, I use vultures a lot, and can easily get to a point of constantly remaxing my bio army, etc.)
It seems you're consistently rating Swann above Raynor. Are you opening up 3CC? It makes a world of difference.
I also slightly disagree with you on Abathur's place. I think he's consistently strong in every mutation except the void shard one (which shuts him down pretty hard... maybe he should lose a lot of points considering that it's the hardest one). Our starkest disagreement here is probably the laser drill mission, where you put him in the bottom and I actually put him on the top. A burrow-move roach is amazing for keeping a unit safely with the objective, some burrow micro early on can prevent you from ever losing any unit to the laser drill (and lots of queens later), and a solid army of roach/ravager/queen/viper still rolls over everything. I think you put him in the bottom because of his lack of ability to cheese the laser, but I've finished many missions with him without ever touching the laser.
I didn't try this, but all of this sounds much more difficult than just cheesing the laser. His toxic nests are much more useless than usual, which has him struggling on biomass for quite a bit.
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On July 07 2016 04:26 monk wrote:
It seems you're consistently rating Swann above Raynor. Are you opening up 3CC? It makes a world of difference.
than usual, which has him struggling on biomass for quite a bit.
No, I haven't tried it. I will give it a shot. I do tend to go 6-8 orbitals, but maybe my start is a little slower than yours because I don't start with as many of them. But I do still feel I have a much stronger start with him than the majority of Raynor players. Though, unfortunately, most Raynor players don't even seem to know that they can make more than two OCs.
BTW there are still missions in which I think Raynor is way better. For example he's a god of the temple mutation mission. And I rank him way higher than Swann on the laser drill mission. But I do tend to think Swann is stronger than Raynor on average.
On July 07 2016 04:26 monk wrote:Show nested quote +I also slightly disagree with you on Abathur's place. I think he's consistently strong in every mutation except the void shard one (which shuts him down pretty hard... maybe he should lose a lot of points considering that it's the hardest one). Our starkest disagreement here is probably the laser drill mission, where you put him in the bottom and I actually put him on the top. A burrow-move roach is amazing for keeping a unit safely with the objective, some burrow micro early on can prevent you from ever losing any unit to the laser drill (and lots of queens later), and a solid army of roach/ravager/queen/viper still rolls over everything. I think you put him in the bottom because of his lack of ability to cheese the laser, but I've finished many missions with him without ever touching the laser. I didn't try this, but all of this sounds much more difficult than just cheesing the laser. His toxic nests are much more useless than usual, which has him struggling on biomass for quite a bit.
Actually, you can get quite a few toxic nests up before the first set of enemies go after the objective with a little trick. First of all, put a couple mastery points in max toxic nests (you only need to do about 8 or so, just 3 points). Camp an overlord just outside the objective's line of sight (easily identified as a fog of war circle), and wait until you have 8 toxic nests. Then move the OL just inside the line of sight and hold position, and drop all 8 nests. When the overlord is close to death, run him back inside. I've pulled this off many times, my overlord survives and I only lose 1 toxic nest, so I still have 7 wiping out the first wave. It seems like a hassle, but there's not much to do at the beginning of the game anyway, and it's kinda fun. You only need to do that once, because once your army can tank that laser, you can just place them down freely. The thing with Abathur on this mission is that he requires a lot more control at the beginning. But once you get OP, he's easy as usual.
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And Dark Pylon is a highly underrated ability and Pylon radius is an amazing mastery. I originally used the Black Hole mastery, but since switching, I've never looked back.
Monk can u explain why you think pylon range is better than black hole duration?.
I myself am off the opinion that dark pylons are underused in terms of adding even more mobility to vorazuns army.
but with this specific mastery i cant really see why it would be worth putting points into it compared to black hole?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 08 2016 00:07 Chr15t wrote:Show nested quote +And Dark Pylon is a highly underrated ability and Pylon radius is an amazing mastery. I originally used the Black Hole mastery, but since switching, I've never looked back. Monk can u explain why you think pylon range is better than black hole duration?. I myself am off the opinion that dark pylons are underused in terms of adding even more mobility to vorazuns army. but with this specific mastery i cant really see why it would be worth putting points into it compared to black hole?
First, I don't find the Black Hole mastery all too useful since you almost always kill the units inside the Black Hole before it ends with no mastery points. Second, larger radius lets you hide tons of static defense at chokes. This makes it so that units without detection will stumble around the cannons/turrets before they can touch the Pylon. It lets you hide your entire mineral line with a single pylon. And it lets you save your allies' units in a pinch.
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I had points in black hole for a long time. But dark pylon range is definitely better for any more defensive map. On offensive it probably doesn't make a ton of difference, but I'm rolling pylon range for now.
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I found it quite useful as Artanis when my Vorazun ally gave me a Dark Pylon for my base. I didn't need to buildany Pylons for the whole game since her upgraded range pylon was enough for all my buildings :D
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A couple of weeks ago, I asked people about their thoughts on commander rankings, and I got a ton of really nice feedback. I updated the OP accordingly.
I was wondering if you guys can help me flesh out the commander combo section, which is mainly useful for friends who play together. I solo most of the time, so I don't have as much experience
For the lazy, here is the section currently in the OP. Any unorthodox input is appreciated!
Some commander combos
Really good synergy combo
- Artanis + Zagara/Raynor : Artanis 5 seconds of invulnerability pairs extremely well with Zagara's zerglings banelings and scourges / Raynor's marines and medics. Additionally, Artanis' only good units are ranged, so they don't have pathing issues with Zagara's units.
- Swann + Karax : Early game, Swann is pretty slow, so Kara's Spear of Adun and cannons are extremely handy to clear the first waves. Karax's passive heal of mechanical units are really useful to save Swann's first units. Late game, Karax is incredibly gas starved, and Swann goes a long way to alleviate this. This is the only way for Karax to obtain a true army of powerful units (carriers for example).
- Vorazun + Zagara/Karax/Kerrigan: Vorazun's black hole acts exactly like an Archon toilet, so easy access to AoE attacks can be really valuable. The three commanders that can use it to the fullest are Karax (Spear of Adun), Zagara (banelings) and Kerrigan (Kerrigan's Dash). This is mostly valuable early game for ramping up your economy while having 0 units.
Specific army compositions
- Vorazun + Kerrigan : Vorazun can save cloaked and burrowed units once every 60 seconds. The units which can benefit from it are lurkers, banshees and wraiths. The last two can make for some fun troll builds, but lurkers are a legit strategy. Be just sure to have your lurkers buried when they are about to "die"!
- Artanis + Kerrigan : Kerrigan raptor lings are incredibly strong with their 5 second invulnerability. Kerrigan can go ling/ultra while Artanis takes care of anti-air. Don't hesitate to back off during a large assault and come back a minute later.
- Vorazun + Raynor : With your partner's approval, Vorazun can take 6 gases while Raynor sticks to marine/medics on 2 gases. This allows her to ramp even faster toward her endgame army, and doesn't really cripple Raynor.
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On July 08 2016 07:17 fezvez wrote:
Specific army compositions
- Vorazun + Kerrigan : Vorazun can save cloaked and burrowed units once every 60 seconds. The units which can benefit from it are lurkers, banshees and wraiths. The last two can make for some fun troll builds, but lurkers are a legit strategy. Be just sure to have your lurkers buried when they are about to "die"!
- Artanis + Kerrigan : Kerrigan raptor lings are incredibly strong with their 5 second invulnerability. Kerrigan can go ling/ultra while Artanis takes care of anti-air. Don't hesitate to back off during a large assault and come back a minute later.
- Vorazun + Raynor : With your partner's approval, Vorazun can take 6 gases while Raynor sticks to marine/medics on 2 gases. This allows her to ramp even faster toward her endgame army, and doesn't really cripple Raynor.
Vorazun + Partner Leaving : Just take three bases and roll over the enemy. ;D
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Swann + Abathur. If I'm Abathur, I usually have to choose to spend the bulk of my gas on ravager/viper, or mutas. But if I get Swann as an ally I go the whole 9 yards. I get ravagers, queens, mutas, devourers, and vipers. It's stupid how strong this army is, it shouldn't even be able to exist. Abathur has, IMO, the most to make use of gas, so he's the best commander to get with Swann.
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I would say Artanis+zagara for normal maps is the best. Artanis+raynor/Kerrigan with more lings is decent too. It's hard to rank because normal maps are very easy and mutations are very specific.
Swann + Abathur for mass mutas seems good at first glance. But I don't think it's that good synergy. Both have rather slow start and with my bad luck I often find myself as Abathur against a lot of splash on mutas. In that case a lot of gass doesn't help and it's actually amassing biomass that will make your army invincible in the end. Swann + Vorazun/karax works well only because of gass, but there isn't much other synergy than strong start from Vora/Karax.
Overall there isn't a lot of synergy other than Artanis+cheap units and Swann+gass heavy units. At least unless it's map/mutation specific.
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On July 08 2016 07:17 fezvez wrote:
Really good synergy combo
- Artanis + Zagara/Raynor : Artanis 5 seconds of invulnerability pairs extremely well with Zagara's zerglings banelings and scourges / Raynor's marines and medics. Additionally, Artanis' only good units are ranged, so they don't have pathing issues with Zagara's units.
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Might want to remove that, as we already realized that Guardian Shell doesn't work on those kamikazi units. It should be in this thread, I know I've read it in numerous posts somewhere..
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On July 08 2016 09:10 Tuczniak wrote:
Swann + Abathur for mass mutas seems good at first glance. But I don't think it's that good synergy. Both have rather slow start and with my bad luck I often find myself as Abathur against a lot of splash on mutas. In that case a lot of gass doesn't help and it's actually amassing biomass that will make your army invincible in the end.
I don't agree with that. Maybe Swann's start is slow, although if your build is right, I think you should never have any problem stopping the first few waves. All you have to do is build your first turrets on time, and time your herc-tanks to be out before the second wave. And if you can't, you have the warbots. I've never had an issue with Abathur's start. Toxic nests make sure you never get touched by the first two waves, as long as you have a roach to guide them into the nests. The only problem you'd ever have is phoenixes in the second wave, but that means you make queens if you see zealots in the first. And you generally get a brutalisk after two waves.
As for the things that kill mutas... well that's the beauty of having Swann as an ally. When your mutas are too frail and don't have enough biomass yet, you just rip everything up with your ravagers and just take the biomass with the mutas.
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On July 08 2016 22:35 MrTic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 07:17 fezvez wrote:
Really good synergy combo
- Artanis + Zagara/Raynor : Artanis 5 seconds of invulnerability pairs extremely well with Zagara's zerglings banelings and scourges / Raynor's marines and medics. Additionally, Artanis' only good units are ranged, so they don't have pathing issues with Zagara's units.
. Might want to remove that, as we already realized that Guardian Shell doesn't work on those kamikazi units. It should be in this thread, I know I've read it in numerous posts somewhere..
We are probably not talking about the same thing. I don't mean that banelings and scourge survive their suicide, I mean that they don't get blown up by AoE attacks when they try to close the distance thanks to Guardian Shell.
When protoss has 8 colossi barreling down on you, this makes a world of difference. Same think with scourge facing liberators.
From post #133 : Guardian Shell] makes your lings very very strong, but also stops scourges and banes from dying before they hit their target.
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On July 09 2016 00:31 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 22:35 MrTic wrote:On July 08 2016 07:17 fezvez wrote:
Really good synergy combo
- Artanis + Zagara/Raynor : Artanis 5 seconds of invulnerability pairs extremely well with Zagara's zerglings banelings and scourges / Raynor's marines and medics. Additionally, Artanis' only good units are ranged, so they don't have pathing issues with Zagara's units.
. Might want to remove that, as we already realized that Guardian Shell doesn't work on those kamikazi units. It should be in this thread, I know I've read it in numerous posts somewhere.. We are probably not talking about the same thing. I don't mean that banelings and scourge survive their suicide, I mean that they don't get blown up by AoE attacks when they try to close the distance thanks to Guardian Shell. When protoss has 8 colossi barreling down on you, this makes a world of difference. Same think with scourge facing liberators. From post #133 : Show nested quote +Guardian Shell] makes your lings very very strong, but also stops scourges and banes from dying before they hit their target.
No, I'm pretty sure they disabled Guardian Shell on suicide units altogether. Not just when they suicide, but when they are legitimately killed as well.
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Since there's been a lot of Swann discussion (esp. on the mutation thread), here's my goto build for Swann. Mind the format since this is the first time I'm doing something like this. I've only recently started playing SCII (I did play a lot of BW ladder back in '00-'05.) I'm mainly playing co-op right now since I don't have the time or inclination to play ladder but I did do my placement matches a couple days ago and got placed in Gold, whatever that is. (i'm pretty sure it's low  ).
My goto build with Swann is like this:
1. constant SCV prod., depot when I have 100 (right by the CC so SCV doesn't have to travel).
2. When the 1st supply depot is halfway done, put a 2nd SCV to help build it faster. That way it finishes just before supply block.
3. Send an SCV to build Factory around 120 minerals. I put a 2nd SCV on it when it is halfway finished. Queque that 2nd SCV to expo. 1st SCV back to minerals.
4. Take 1st gas, build it with three SCVs.
5. Send a SCV to expo and time it so it gets there as Factory finishes.
6. Build two turrets to take down rocks. 2nd SCV comes to help build faster. Attack the rocks with the two SCVs as well because why not.
Constant SCV prod. at all times, I use the excess minerals to put drones on Gas (I put my mastery into their price red.)
7. 2nd Depot. 2nd gas.
8. Factory add on.
9. Salvage turrets at expo, build CC with the two SCVs there.
10. Take 4 SCVs from main and send them to help at expo.
11. Three SCVs from main to main ramp and build 3-4 flame turrets right before the first wave hits. You can take care of the 1st wave by youself this way if ally doesn't help (they usually don't). No need to use calldowns.
12. Salvage the turrets and start two Golaiths.
13. Start 2x Armory, then an EngBay.
14. I get these in the following order as money becomes available: 1st drill upgrade, attack and armor upgrades, Spaceport, Goliath upgrades, 3rd armory, 2nd Factory. Reactor on Spaceport before building anything.
I intially build Goliaths only until I have around 8-10, then two science vessels for support once Spaceport finishes. Later I start mixing in Thors and Siege tanks and four more Science Vessels. Also two or three Hercules for emergencies. If I'm facing a comp Goliaths will have some trouble with, I mix in upgraded hellbats. They have a lot of armor and with Science Vessels around, they can tank Hybrids easily enough while the Goliaths and Tanks melt everything. Thors are mainly for support and tanking incase the hellbats die. I always keep a Hercules on hand at my base to bring in reinforcements and go to other objectives etc. A 2nd Hercules stays with the army to pick up dying units, move Thors closer and whatnot.
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On July 09 2016 03:21 GamerJatt wrote:Since there's been a lot of Swann discussion (esp. on the mutation thread), here's my goto build for Swann. Mind the format since this is the first time I'm doing something like this. I've only recently started playing SCII (I did play a lot of BW ladder back in '00-'05.) I'm mainly playing co-op right now since I don't have the time or inclination to play ladder but I did do my placement matches a couple days ago and got placed in Gold, whatever that is. (i'm pretty sure it's low ). My goto build with Swann is like this: 1. constant SCV prod., depot when I have 100 (right by the CC so SCV doesn't have to travel). 2. When the 1st supply depot is halfway done, put a 2nd SCV to help build it faster. That way it finishes just before supply block. 3. Send an SCV to build Factory around 120 minerals. I put a 2nd SCV on it when it is halfway finished. Queque that 2nd SCV to expo. 1st SCV back to minerals. 4. Take 1st gas, build it with three SCVs. 5. Send a SCV to expo and time it so it gets there as Factory finishes. 6. Build two turrets to take down rocks. 2nd SCV comes to help build faster. Attack the rocks with the two SCVs as well because why not. Constant SCV prod. at all times, I use the excess minerals to put drones on Gas (I put my mastery into their price red.) 7. 2nd Depot. 2nd gas. 8. Factory add on. 9. Salvage turrets at expo, build CC with the two SCVs there. 10. Take 4 SCVs from main and send them to help at expo. 11. Three SCVs from main to main ramp and build 3-4 flame turrets right before the first wave hits. You can take care of the 1st wave by youself this way if ally doesn't help (they usually don't). No need to use calldowns. 12. Salvage the turrets and start two Golaiths. 13. Start 2x Armory, then an EngBay. 14. I get these in the following order as money becomes available: 1st drill upgrade, attack and armor upgrades, Spaceport, Goliath upgrades, 3rd armory, 2nd Factory. Reactor on Spaceport before building anything. I intially build Goliaths only until I have around 8-10, then two science vessels for support once Spaceport finishes. Later I start mixing in Thors and Siege tanks and four more Science Vessels. Also two or three Hercules for emergencies. If I'm facing a comp Goliaths will have some trouble with, I mix in upgraded hellbats. They have a lot of armor and with Science Vessels around, they can tank Hybrids easily enough while the Goliaths and Tanks melt everything. Thors are mainly for support and tanking incase the hellbats die. I always keep a Hercules on hand at my base to bring in reinforcements and go to other objectives etc. A 2nd Hercules stays with the army to pick up dying units, move Thors closer and whatnot.
Not bad. Though, from your description, it doesn't sound like you're taking advantage of Swann's best weapon, which is herc-tanks. You say you use hercs for emergencies or to bring rallied units to your army. But did you know that hercs can pick up tanks while sieged? One herc can hold 8 sieged tanks, and they can pick them up and drop them off immediately. It makes for completely broken tanks. Their amazing power is supposed to be offset by their lack of mobility (siege/unsiege; something a BW mech player can very much feel the pain of) but that's completely negated by hercs picking them up. Once you siege a tank in a mission, you should never have to unsiege that tank again. So what you have is broken anti-ground, and amazing mobility. It's one of the reasons I think Swann is one of the best, and the most underrated commander. (To this day, playing since November 2015, I haven't seen a co-op ally utilise this... and I'm still surprising many allies with it.) Also, on those missions where you need lots of mobility (lock & load, Vermillion problem) you should be constantly moving your whole army with hercs (except science vessels, obviously). It is incredibly useful.
As for the opener, you should try Xsyq's opener. I don't remember where he described it, but you can find it. I have always been doing it. You basically have your expansion up by 3 minutes with double CC production doing so, and you can still get defensive turrets + a refinery up before the first attack wave. I won't go into full detail, but basically, use 4 SCVs to build your first factory, then have all 4 SCVs going to your natural to build two blaster turrets. When the rocks are almost down, bring 4 more SCVs to the natural (total 8), salvage the turrets, and have the 8 SCVs build your CC.
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I do use the Hercules + Siege Tank combo, but only in mutations, regular brutal I don't even bother with building tanks anymore. I've never seen any1 use a Hercules, much less use the Siege combo... but then I've never seen any Raynor build more than two CCs either  or seen a Kerrigan use Omega worms...
Edit: I'd have to try that build but my thinking was, when I have two SCVs on Factory, I get 150 minerals for the turret when the Factory finishes and two SCVs can build the turrets pretty fast. Four SCVs would probably have to wait a bit for the 2nd turret since you're also mining less. I also like to take my Gas earlier so I can get all the upgrades started asap. I do bring more SCVs to finish the expo CC. I'll try that build as well to see which one works out better.
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You do get to start a blaster turret right after your first factory, but you have to cut production of one SCV to have enough minerals to start the second blaster turret right away. But I think it's worth it, to have double SCV production sooner.
When it comes to non-mutation maps, I've gotten to the point where I'm more worried about maximising my kills than actually winning (which is almost trivial at this point). So I'm still trying to get the most out of my build. It just ends up being one of two things: either my ally and I are both in competition for getting more kills and we pretty much race against each other to where the bulk of units are, or (more commonly) the whole thing becomes a joke as my ally plays at a "regular" pace while I'm going around the map murdering everything, and the kill count ratio at the end is laughable. It does obviously get boring though, so I'm glad there's mutators.
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On July 08 2016 23:11 The Bottle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 09:10 Tuczniak wrote:
Swann + Abathur for mass mutas seems good at first glance. But I don't think it's that good synergy. Both have rather slow start and with my bad luck I often find myself as Abathur against a lot of splash on mutas. In that case a lot of gass doesn't help and it's actually amassing biomass that will make your army invincible in the end. I don't agree with that. Maybe Swann's start is slow, although if your build is right, I think you should never have any problem stopping the first few waves. All you have to do is build your first turrets on time, and time your herc-tanks to be out before the second wave. And if you can't, you have the warbots. I've never had an issue with Abathur's start. Toxic nests make sure you never get touched by the first two waves, as long as you have a roach to guide them into the nests. The only problem you'd ever have is phoenixes in the second wave, but that means you make queens if you see zealots in the first. And you generally get a brutalisk after two waves. I didn't mean slow start as you would have problem staying alive. I meant it as ability to push objectives fast. Obviously nothing should kill you on normal maps and most of mutations no matter what composition you are going. But artanis+zagara probably cleared a lot of map by the time abathur+swann start rolling. If there was mutation that would require fast start Abathur+Swann might have harder time and so I said that.
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Here's my old post.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 28 2016 14:34 Xsyq wrote:
I really should write down all the timings for my build so I can explain it better, going from memory just doesn't do it. I suppose the one you have can work, but mine doesn't need to lift the CC and it holds off any AI wave. Let me elaborate a bit:
14 depot - send 3 more SCVs to finish before 15th SCV pops
15 factory - use all 4 SCVs from depot
16 1 blaster turret at expo w/same 4 SCVs
16 Another blaster turret with 4 SCVs, attack rocks with SCVs once finished
Continue SCV production once the second turret is finished, you will be able to continually produce from now on.
At 300 health on rocks send 4 more SCVs to expo, rocks should die and turrets finish salvaging almost exactly the time the extra SCVs arrive. Build CC with all 8 SCVs in place next to minerals, you should not need to lift since the rocks are dead.
Send two SCVs to main entrance to build two perdition turrets, this will hold off any AI wave except roaches with proper micro and repair. As mentioned above, roaches will require more SCVs pulled and a rushed blaster turret. Do not worry if you take severe losses (though you shouldn't), as roach/hydra dies very easily to tanks so you can still win.
Once the wave is dead add on refineries as your minerals allow, I generally get one at each base to keep worker saturation as even as possible, then add on as many gas drones as possible with extra minerals before taking the last geysers. I'm not too sure about when to take refineries vs gas drones, as gas drones cost more up-front and only produce half as much but refineries take 3 SCVs off mining minerals leading to fewer minerals in the long run. The 2 refinery - gas drones - 2 refineries seems to have the best mineral/gas balance for this build.
Anything except early pheonix from the AI means you should get a tech reactor (or tech lab if you haven't gotten to level ten), a tank, and Maelstrom Rounds. The tank should pop out just in time for the second wave. Against pheonix you should reactor out a couple goliaths. After holding off the second wave, drop a starport so you can start to micro your tanks with hercules, then build an armory for Regenerative Bio-steel and the first beam upgrade. This is where things start to split.
The main factor in your unit composition is how much of the AI waves are grounded. Maelstrom hercules tanks are ridiculously good against ground units, so your only limiting factor will be dealing with enemy air. More enemy air, more goliaths, thors, and science vessels. More enemy ground, more tanks. You will be able to afford all the tanks because science vessels aren't needed when your enemies die before they can fire a shot, and RBS takes care of any scratches your tanks might receive.
Whatever the specific unit composition, you'll generally end up with two armories, two factories and one starport with tech reactors. Unless you're going wraiths, which is just three reactored starports.
I think kills are a very fuzzy way of describing a build's effectiveness. You can barely reach a hundred on Void Thrashing against Protoss but hit over a thousand on Oblivion Express vs ling-bane-muta without trying too hard. Percentage-wise this build usually gets 66-75% of the kills with random partners without too much effort on my part, so it seems pretty good to me. I usually just play Void Launch, take a third on the right side, and camp three of the enemy spawns.
The only thing that masteries have changed is when to take your gas geysers. You can put up drones immediately (and there's really no reason not to) at the higher levels, but you'll want to make sure you have enough mineral production or else you'll end up with a ton of gas and no way to use it. I have 30 points in the mastery (10 mineral drones), so I'll generally get one geyser at each base after my CC finishes but wait until 18/12 SCVs on minerals to get the other geyser.
I've also mostly phased out science vessels in favor of just building more SCVs and bringing them along in the Hercs. You end up with a lot more options, since you can literally build a base anywhere quite fast and then salvage everything when you're done (plus building missile turrets gives you detection when you teleport instead of waiting for vessels to float over). Science vessels are still really good against zerg air with Irradiate though, if it's muta/ling or just muta/corruptor/broodlord I'll build quite a few.
Edit:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2016 04:51 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 23:11 The Bottle wrote:On July 08 2016 09:10 Tuczniak wrote:
Swann + Abathur for mass mutas seems good at first glance. But I don't think it's that good synergy. Both have rather slow start and with my bad luck I often find myself as Abathur against a lot of splash on mutas. In that case a lot of gass doesn't help and it's actually amassing biomass that will make your army invincible in the end. I don't agree with that. Maybe Swann's start is slow, although if your build is right, I think you should never have any problem stopping the first few waves. All you have to do is build your first turrets on time, and time your herc-tanks to be out before the second wave. And if you can't, you have the warbots. I've never had an issue with Abathur's start. Toxic nests make sure you never get touched by the first two waves, as long as you have a roach to guide them into the nests. The only problem you'd ever have is phoenixes in the second wave, but that means you make queens if you see zealots in the first. And you generally get a brutalisk after two waves. I didn't mean slow start as you would have problem staying alive. I meant it as ability to push objectives fast. Obviously nothing should kill you on normal maps and most of mutations no matter what composition you are going. But artanis+zagara probably cleared a lot of map by the time abathur+swann start rolling. If there was mutation that would require fast start Abathur+Swann might have harder time and so I said that.
People really underestimate the power of an early hercules with 3-4 tanks in it. It's basically having Kerrigan vs ground but it can teleport and only takes a minute or so more of build time.
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EPT
