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Canada8159 Posts
what the hell did they change raynors 2 mules to increased unit life?
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On July 28 2016 09:29 Jer99 wrote:
what the hell did they change raynors 2 mules to increased unit life?
Yes.. now either play with his bio balls (wat :D) better or go mech, which got some buffs . And bunker upgrades are passives now, but I still wonder where and how it's good to use them 
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Canada8159 Posts
No more dropping 40 Marines at a time 
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Xsyq, Monk, I wonder if it's possible that you edit your pretty cool guides that I linked at the top of the OP (mainly about Raynor nerf)
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@Fezvez
Idk if you have considered it already, but IMO Bunkers are quite good now at holding a position. Well, in your guide you depict them as useless, and pre-patch ones certainly were. But the new ones are worth it, especially because of the increased HP. What do you think?
Or maybe I just like them because they look nice :D? Hmm
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On July 30 2016 06:12 MrTic wrote:
@Fezvez
Idk if you have considered it already, but IMO Bunkers are quite good now at holding a position. Well, in your guide you depict them as useless, and pre-patch ones certainly were. But the new ones are worth it, especially because of the increased HP. What do you think?
Or maybe I just like them because they look nice :D? Hmm
You are entirely right, I haven't played Raynor much since the change, and the bunker change may make them worth something now
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2016 02:49 fezvez wrote:
Xsyq, Monk, I wonder if it's possible that you edit your pretty cool guides that I linked at the top of the OP (mainly about Raynor nerf)
I'd have to rewrite it given the new mutators as well.
My new ranking is Vorazun > Artanis/Karax/Kerrigan/Swann > Abathur > Zagara with Raynor currently unknown but probably somewhere near the bottom.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSmCvFn5ZD5xTHxfIBR_HeGVM5u3bFtCpQmP1pAOQsU/edit#gid=0
At level 5 : Vorazun > Swann/Abathur > Kerrigan > Zagara/Raynor/Artanis > Karax
At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Abathur/Raynor/Zagara >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax
At 60+ masteries : standard missions are trivial, and mutations are too varied for a meaningful ranking. However, Vorazun/Abathur have such a solid core that they seem to be always top tier. Kerrigan and Karax benefit the most from mutators thanks to resource cost reduction.
Also, in the spirit of updating, you should update this. Raynor is no longer near the top and I highly disagree that Abathur is generally top tier at mutations.
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On July 31 2016 00:29 monk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2016 02:49 fezvez wrote:
Xsyq, Monk, I wonder if it's possible that you edit your pretty cool guides that I linked at the top of the OP (mainly about Raynor nerf) I'd have to rewrite it given the new mutators as well. My new ranking is Vorazun > Artanis/Karax/Kerrigan/Swann > Abathur > Zagara with Raynor currently unknown but probably somewhere near the bottom. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSmCvFn5ZD5xTHxfIBR_HeGVM5u3bFtCpQmP1pAOQsU/edit#gid=0Show nested quote +At level 5 : Vorazun > Swann/Abathur > Kerrigan > Zagara/Raynor/Artanis > Karax
At level 15 with no mastery : Vorazun/Abathur/Raynor/Zagara >Swann/Kerrigan > Artanis/Karax
At 60+ masteries : standard missions are trivial, and mutations are too varied for a meaningful ranking. However, Vorazun/Abathur have such a solid core that they seem to be always top tier. Kerrigan and Karax benefit the most from mutators thanks to resource cost reduction. Also, in the spirit of updating, you should update this. Raynor is no longer near the top and I highly disagree that Abathur is generally top tier at mutations.
You are right on both counts.
I removed Raynor from top of 60+ masteries already, and Abathur was from before his Mend nerf
Edit : And I updated the rest
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United States8476 Posts
Over the past few weeks, I've been ranking commanders on each mutator. The results are as follows: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSmCvFn5ZD5xTHxfIBR_HeGVM5u3bFtCpQmP1pAOQsU/edit#gid=0
Below I'll try to outline the best parts of each commander and rank their overall strength in mutators.
1. Vorazun
Most agree that she's the best commander but why is that so?
- The core of it is that Corsair/DT is so versatile in itself that he throws the idea of versatility out the window. She does not need a "defensive composition" when her standard offensive abilities rival that of Swann's defensive abilities.
- Her economy gets a huge boost from auto-mine Assimilators, meaning you get early gas and aren't required to build 12 extra workers. Not only that, but with Spear of Adun masteries, she can both kill her natural rocks or clear her natural quickly PLUS skip her first Pylon utilizing a Dark Pylon.
- Her Spear of Adun abilities are all among the best in the game. Shadow Guard is second only to Hyperion in terms of the best calldown in the game. Black Hole and Time Stop both allow
you to instantly win any battle. And Dark Pylon is a highly underrated ability and Pylon radius is an amazing mastery. I originally used the Black Hole mastery, but since switching, I've never looked back.
- Her ramp is amazing and with an efficient build, she won't have a single point in the game where she is vulnerable.
- Her mobility is top notch with fast Corsairs, Blinking Dts, and Dark Pylons.
- Her ability to retain units is unmatched.
- Mass Void Ray as an alternative is also a viable composition on some maps/mutations. Examples include Boom Town and The Burning Legion.
- With DTs, only Abathur, Swann, and Kerrigan can rival her anti-ground force. She has a slight weakness against mass air on Void Launch unless she goes the full-air path.
- In summary, while some commanders have 1 or 2 "overpowered" aspects about them, Vorazun has at least 5.
2. Karax
- Karax is another example of a commander that is resistant to mutators. By utilizing cannon defenses and calldown, Karax can bypass the effects of many mutators normally aimed at units.
- However, Karax suffers from a versatility problem. When he cannot utilize his cannons, he usually becomes the worst commander in the game.
- Karax has a large number of viable compositions including Zealot/Mirage, Immortal/Energizer, or Mass Carriers. However, none of them really stand out too much on their own.
- Calldowns are great, but limited. Usually you'd rather just have a better army, but the calldowns allow you to cover more than one position at once.
3. Kerrigan
- Kerrigan herself is incredibly resistant to mutators. As an extremely mobile hero unit, she can bypass most mutators and carry the entire team until around 10 minutes into the game. This allows both players to play more greedy and build up for late game. It also helps her bypass the issue of not having much to speed up her economy early-game.
- Omega Worms are criminally underused and I would dare say the second best thing this commander has besides the Hero Kerrigan herself. With each Omega Worm, you gain instant mobility, creep spread, and free 1000HP buildings every minute. I now build a minimum of two for each mission, sometimes going up to four. Even in the defensive missions, you can use them as building walls. They're a bit expensive on the gas, but I often find myself low on minerals instead of gas when I play Kerrigan at higher mastery points.
- She has the option to play offensive Ultra/Queen/Hydra or defensive Lurkers.
- Her main weakness is heavy air waves, since she has the worst anti-air capabilities of all the commanders.
4. Swann
Swann has a lot of things going for him, but he has a glaring weakness in his early-game compared to most commanders. While he has the ability to gain large amounts of Gas, he really struggles in the mineral department for a large portion of the game.
- One trick I've been using to combat this at higher mastery levels is to rely more on Vespene Drone and not fully saturate my gas early on.
- Even with this though, it's often hard to get a sizable army in the early-game.
- Asking allies to Chrono your Drill is very helpful.
- Please use Hercs if you're not already doing so. Hercs + Tanks is the best anti-ground composition in the game.
- Defensive Matrix is probably Swann's most underrated spell. Use it on everything that's damaged.
- Thor/Goliath is usually better than just straight up mass Goliath in many scenarios.
5. Abathur
- Abathur's main selling point is that he has the undisputed best potential army in the game. How good he is on any given map depends on how fast he gets there.
- Unfortunately, there are many mutators that inhibit Abathur early on by preventing Toxic Nests from achieving their full potential.
- Though Mutalisk-based compositions are clearly the best in the end-game, it's not always the best choice. In truth, all of Abathur's units are viable.
- Devourers are hands down the best anti-air in the game by a large margin.
- Vipers also get a shoutout, especially with ground-based compositions.
- Besides the early-game weakness, Abathur suffers a large mobility weakness. He is the only commander without an immediate calldown, so he'll have trouble dealing with attacks on the other side of the map. Three Brutalisks can potentially deep-tunnel, but often times it's not enough.
6. Artanis
- Artanis' Guardian Shell ability is simply the best ability in the game bar none. It can single-handedly carries Artanis through mutations. Not only is it helpful against many many mutators, it lets Raynor and Zagara (or even Kerrigan) completely steamroll anything.
- Beyond this ability, Artanis is fairly average. He has a few choices for army composition, but none of them are overwhelming powerful.
- Tempest/Zealot, Phoenix/Zealot, and Dragoon/Immortal/Reaver are all fairly good choices on many mutator maps. Zealot/Archon is also useful in rare situations (mostly non-mutator), though I find it a bit too weak to air even when Dragoons are added. Artanis' optimal unit composition can change with each mutation.
- Mass Tempest is one of the strongest easily attainable maxed armies in the game, but it can be tough to build up a critical mass.
- He also has no notable way to boost his economy early on and has one of the slowest expansion clears of any commander.
7/8. Zagara
- Zagara's main strength is that she is probably the fastest-ramping commander in the game, meaning she can get to full strength the quickest. This alone makes her one of the best commanders on some non-mutation maps.
- Both her Twin Drone ability and her faster larva spawning mastery ability pump up her economy in the early-game.
- Her major weakness is that she struggles on mutations that constantly spawn units. She's also not very resilient to some mass AoE effects in some mutators. In that sense, she is not as versatile as some of the other commanders.
- She also struggles to push some positions since she can only have a 100 supply max army.
- Zagara herself is nice but pales in comparison to the Kerrigan hero.
- Zagara's "ultimate" ability is the most underwhelming of any commander. You can put mastery points into it, but then you give up Baneling strength, which I would argue is better.
- On some mutations, she can fizzle out when the enemies get too strong and you run out of resources.
- Bile Launchers are generally underutilized and are amazing on defensive missions. With good micro, they're the best defensive structure in the game.
7/8. Raynor
- Banshees from the Calldown should be used to clear rocks whenever possible.
- Point Defense Drones from the Hyperion last an extremely long time, so make sure you use all the charges.
- Mines are now the most "OP" unit that Raynor has. He's still pretty amazing on defensive missions without mutators that easily kill his mines. Mixing in Vultures with your Bio is a great strategy as well.
- Generally, Mech should be used on defensive maps. Anti-ground will generally be Vulture/Tank or Vulture/Banshee. Anti-air will be a mix of Vikings and Turrets.
- Opening 3CC should still be your go-to build even after the mule nerf. The only difference is now it's better to go CC-Rax-CC instead of Rax-CC-CC.
- Although mass Orbital Commands has been nerfed, he can still amass quite a few of them in the late game. This both allows for a faster remax and the ability to mass Turrets.
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On July 31 2016 10:28 monk wrote:2/3/4/5. Artanis- He also has no notable way to boost his economy early on and has one of the slowest expansion clears of any commander.
I dont know about that, i find Abathur, Kerrigan and even karax cant clear expos faster.
Going 14gate, 15gate before pylon, and then warp in zealots directly at the rocks seems like a really fast expo tactic. I dont know if im missing something?
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^ I'm doing it exactly like you described it, usually. getting the rocks down faster than most allies. Faster than me are Vorazuns and Karax and Swan when they clear it using turrets. Idk about others as I don't pay much attention it..
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United States8476 Posts
I shouldn't have said rock clear. Instead, what I meant was that Artanis has the slowest economy early game, partly due to his slow rock clear. While Abathur, Kerrigan, and Raynor technically don't clear the rocks as fast, they all still have better economies early game. Ranking the economies, I'd go something like:
- Vorazun instantly kills both plaayers' rocks with DTs.
- Zagara's Twin Drones is really good and Zerglings are cheap and kill rocks fast.
- Raynor has 3CC openings that don't require you to take down the rocks.
- Karax can orbital Strike the rocks down instantly with enough mastery, skipping forge and 2 cannons altogether.
- Swann has quick build and Vespene Drones.
- Abathur's Hatchery builds more than twice as fast as Artanis's Nexus. His Spines build super quick too.
- Kerrigan can generally make a macro hatch at the rocks and doesn't require extra investment to clear the rocks unlike Artanis. Larva spawn also > Chronoboost efficiency in terms of econ.
- Artanis: My Artanis build is also slightly different that what is described, making only 1 gateway and using chronoboost on that gateway for exactly 3 Zealots. I also don't make any pylons but instead position my warp field close to the rocks while also covering my gateway. This lets you get more early-game gas, lines up so you have exactly 400 minerals when your rocks go down, and nets you a faster cyber core for tech.
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On August 01 2016 22:37 monk wrote:I shouldn't have said rock clear. Instead, what I meant was that Artanis has the slowest economy early game, partly due to his slow rock clear. While Abathur, Kerrigan, and Raynor technically don't clear the rocks as fast, they all still have better economies early game. Ranking the economies, I'd go something like: - Vorazun instantly kills both plaayers' rocks with DTs.
- Zagara's Twin Drones is really good and Zerglings are cheap and kill rocks fast.
- Raynor has 3CC openings that don't require you to take down the rocks.
- Karax can orbital Strike the rocks down instantly with enough mastery, skipping forge and 2 cannons altogether.
- Swann has quick build and Vespene Drones.
- Abathur's Hatchery builds more than twice as fast as Artanis's Nexus. His Spines build super quick too.
- Kerrigan can generally make a macro hatch at the rocks and doesn't require extra investment to clear the rocks unlike Artanis. Larva spawn also > Chronoboost efficiency in terms of econ.
- Artanis: My Artanis build is also slightly different that what is described, making only 1 gateway and using chronoboost on that gateway for exactly 3 Zealots. I also don't make any pylons but instead position my warp field close to the rocks while also covering my gateway. This lets you get more early-game gas, lines up so you have exactly 400 minerals when your rocks go down, and nets you a faster cyber core for tech.
Very in depth answer- i appriciate that - also stealing a couple of notes on your early game setup- seems like good ideas :D
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Definitely gonna try monk's early build for Artanis, as I often need to wait a bit for 400 minerals to start the 2nd Nexus with my usual build order
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Stealth buff of one of abathurs least used units :D .. oh well its something
EDIT: Typo
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I'm pretty sceptical of that claim. For one thing, it seems like our only source is that one little passage in the interview, unless they show us raw number somewhere else. I will say that when it comes to actual queuing, I generally find a match for ladder queuing much faster than I do for co-op. Now that's a tough comparison, because the criteria for selecting the pool of people that you're available to match with in both modes is completely different. (In ladder it's whoever's close to you in MMR, in co-op it's whoever's choosing the same game settings, i.e. difficulty and mutation vs non-mutation, as well as choosing a different commander than you). My intuition tells me that ladder queuing selects a smaller proportion of players than co-op queuing, but I could be wrong. (I almost always do brutal mutations, which I would think is one of the most popular categories.)
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On August 23 2016 04:40 The Bottle wrote:I'm pretty sceptical of that claim. For one thing, it seems like our only source is that one little passage in the interview, unless they show us raw number somewhere else. I will say that when it comes to actual queuing, I generally find a match for ladder queuing much faster than I do for co-op. Now that's a tough comparison, because the criteria for selecting the pool of people that you're available to match with in both modes is completely different. (In ladder it's whoever's close to you in MMR, in co-op it's whoever's choosing the same game settings, i.e. difficulty and mutation vs non-mutation, as well as choosing a different commander than you). My intuition tells me that ladder queuing selects a smaller proportion of players than co-op queuing, but I could be wrong. (I almost always do brutal mutations, which I would think is one of the most popular categories.)
Well, he literally says at 6:45 "some months, more people are playing co-op than multiplayer". And he's the lead designer of Co-op. I don't see why we can't trust his words.
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On August 23 2016 08:12 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2016 04:40 The Bottle wrote:I'm pretty sceptical of that claim. For one thing, it seems like our only source is that one little passage in the interview, unless they show us raw number somewhere else. I will say that when it comes to actual queuing, I generally find a match for ladder queuing much faster than I do for co-op. Now that's a tough comparison, because the criteria for selecting the pool of people that you're available to match with in both modes is completely different. (In ladder it's whoever's close to you in MMR, in co-op it's whoever's choosing the same game settings, i.e. difficulty and mutation vs non-mutation, as well as choosing a different commander than you). My intuition tells me that ladder queuing selects a smaller proportion of players than co-op queuing, but I could be wrong. (I almost always do brutal mutations, which I would think is one of the most popular categories.) Well, he literally says at 6:45 "some months, more people are playing co-op than multiplayer". And he's the lead designer of Co-op. I don't see why we can't trust his words.
I'm skeptical of the claim that co-op is "more popular than multiplayer combined" (the title of the reddit thread). I certainly don't think the lead designer of co-op is being dishonest in any way. But he was very vague. I don't know if he means that there are some months in which, cumulatively, more co-op games were played than multiplayer games over the span of the whole month, or if there were certain months in which there was small period of time within that month that co-op was played more. I don't know if he's saying this through data or through gut feel (you'd be surprised how often people just look quickly at a few charts and reach a conclusion right away from intuition, especially if it confirms what they hope are true). I definitely don't think he's being dishonest, I just think that that video is not nearly enough for me to conclude that co-op is more popular than all other multiplayer. But I'm totally willing to acknowledge it if we see that the data supports it.
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EPT
